Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Hmm]

Indeed I do as a large percent of those 40,000 posts of mine on this forum demonstrate.

I'm all ears...

 

[BobRyan]

I have updated my prior post as follows

I'm all ears...

So that is why we had this post

ok we see the term used to describe a place of torment and suffering which in Rev 20 is an event that happens on planet Earth after the 1000 years - according to scripture. Torment and suffering in what the Bible calls "a lake of fire" which apparently causes the world as we know it to "pass away" and is not merely the point where God "destroys both body and soul in hell" Matt 10:28

In Rev 20 it is a "real event" in a real place "planet Earth" at a real time "after the 1000 years are completed"

There is real "Fire and brimstone" and as Peter said the "elements melt with a fervent heat" 2 Peter 3.

2 Pet 3
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

==================

Speaking of the wicked and their final destruction in that lake of fire Peter says -

2 Peter 2:
Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, 11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

Is it any wonder then that Jesus said -
Matt 10:28 God will "destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell"

Luke 12:
47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

Matt 25:
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left....

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[BobRyan]

Jude 1:
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling place, these He has kept in eternal restraints under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

 

[Jipsah]

On this basis, do you dismiss all of Protestantism?

I've come to dismiss most of modern "evangelical Protestantism", and those parts of "mainline" Protestantism that have decided to worship the zeitgeist rather than God. I've fled to Anglo-Catholicism, but find myself becoming almost daily more Catholic and less Anglo. I have RCC and Coptic friends who urge me to come and join them, and I reckon it's only a matter of time I opt for one or the other. Truth be told, the only thing that has stopped me from joining the Copts here is that their congregations are all roughly 99% Egyptian and I'm afraid I'd be "the old Chinese guy" forever.

 

[lsume]

Presumably God would have foreseen that the vagueness in the Bible about heaven and hell would lead to different interpretations and the arguments we see today about Infernalism, Annihalism and Universalism.

Did He have a good reason for keeping things so undefined?

Mark 4:11-12 seems to suggest so when it talks about why Jesus used parables:

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything comes in parables, 12 in order that
‘they may indeed look but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’ ”
​

Is it a deliberate ploy intended to make us reflect on these things as honestly as we can?

Or was it because that Jesus didn't want us to think too much about heaven and hell but instead to focus on living a Godly life while on earth?

Would it have been impossible for Him to have been clearer because our natural fear of the unknown, of "that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns" (Shakespeare), would have led us to interpret His words to conjure up the infernalist vision of something like ECT whatever He had said? The purpose of such a vision would be to justify and authenticate our fears to ourselves.

Or are there other reasons?

This is quite a gloomy topic but the the Good News is that God comes to find us in our misunderstanding and fear and brings us home. This is the universalist vision.

Consider these verses;
1Pet.4

1. [18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
   
2. Acts.14
   1. [22] Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
   What I now know is that the tribulation reference is spiritual and not physical. Seek and you will find is essential.

 

[Hmm]

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

But Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning are they?

How to explain this? What about the fire is described as "eternal" because it is from God, not because it is going to burn forever, which it very clearly didn't?

Paying attention "to details" is way better than skimming over them.

Yes, you should try it, it's great.

 

[Jipsah]

Everything in the Bible is questioned, doubted, alternate views etc.. If the Bible says God did something in 7 days - literal evenings and mornings - Genesis 1 -- then many Christians will say "oh no that does not mean what it says..."

Kinda like "Take, eat, this is My Body", huh?

 

[BobRyan]

But Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning are they?

No they are not - which proves that "eternal fire" does not mean "fire that can't burn anything up" rather the "eternal" adjective describes the source of the fire rather than its lack of ability to burn something up.

How to explain this? What about the fire is described as "eternal" because it is from God, not because it is going to burn forever, which it very clearly didn't?

Exactly my friend

And that explains how it can be that some experience a lot of torment and others comparatively little as Luke 12 points out - each one judged according to their knowledge and deeds done in the body. (The alternative view that everyone gets "infinite torment" no matter what they did or knew - does not fit Luke 12).


Similarly as we see in the case of Lucifer/satan himself --

Ezek 28:

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Is it any wonder then that Jesus said -
Matt 10:28 God will "destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell"

===========

So this is an example of "paying attention to details" in scripture,, that me and about 22 million of my friends (those that Christianity today calls the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world) - like to share with people.

 

[BobRyan]

Kinda like "Take, eat, this is My Body", huh?

Kinda like -

No one bites Jesus at the last supper


And no one bites Jesus in John 6.

48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

And Jesus is not "made out of wood" in John 10 -
7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.


Jesus smacks the disciples for not getting that symbolism in Matt 16
5 And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, “He said that because we did not bring any bread.” 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, “You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? 10 Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? 11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

He was using the symbol of bread for 'teaching' --

And in John 6 He explains that symbol in terms of eating His body --
60 So then many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This statement is very unpleasant; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, aware that His disciples were complaining about this, said to them, “Is this offensive to you? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”

 

[Jipsah]

Kinda like -

No one bites Jesus at the last supper And no one bites Jesus in John 6.

So He couldn't have really meant what He said, right?

LIteralism when it suits your porpoises; gotta love it. Thanks for the demo.

 

[BobRyan]

Kinda like -

No one bites Jesus at the last supper


And no one bites Jesus in John 6.

48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

And Jesus is not "made out of wood" in John 10 -
7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.


Jesus smacks the disciples for not getting that symbolism in Matt 16
5 And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, “He said that because we did not bring any bread.” 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, “You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? 10 Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? 11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

He was using the symbol of bread for 'teaching' --

And in John 6 He explains that symbol in terms of eating His body --
60 So then many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This statement is very unpleasant; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, aware that His disciples were complaining about this, said to them, “Is this offensive to you? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”

So He couldn't have really meant what He said, right? .

Well... everyone biting Christ in John 6 - does not leave any room to even have "the last supper".

Everyone biting Christ at the last supper -- does not leave any room to even have the trial and crucifixion of Christ.

Your argument is essentially "if we ignore all those details that you point out in Christ's statement can we then imagine his followers were in rebellion by not biting Christ when He tells them to?".

I find that sort of logic hard to follow

I think paying attention to the details - is important.

 

[Saint Steven]

The New Jerusalem ( a perfect squared cube) fits perfectly fine on God true creation.

If I remember correctly, it is 2,000 miles on every side.
How tall is the dome? (atmosphere)

 

[Saint Steven]

I am relatively certain, for example, that Revelation 21's account of the New Jerusalem is referring to the actual Bride of Christ, the Church, the Elect. I have many reasons to think so. But I am not sure. What I AM sure about is that if I am right, I don't know much about it, relatively, though the whole two last chapters of Revelation talk about little else. If I am right about the New Jerusalem, there is a whole lot more to it than I know.

John witnessed the angel measuring the New Jerusalem. Why would you measure the Bride of Christ like a physical object?

 

[BravoM]

The fear of the unknown is one of the most scariest things in existence.
Jesus spoke on Hell more than anyone else. He came to course-correct humanity through his actions and words but also ultimately the Bible.
Heaven and Hell are very real.
IMO, we have several things in this world that could be Hell.
The Kola Bore Hole in Russia is one example. It is currently the deepest hole on the planet. They lowered a special mic into it and got a recording. It melted b/c the calculated temperatures were hotter than expected. The audio sounds like millions of people constantly screaming.
If anything, Jesus was showing us both ways. The right way and what happens if you don't do right.

 

[Saint Steven]

I've come to dismiss most of modern "evangelical Protestantism", and those parts of "mainline" Protestantism that have decided to worship the zeitgeist rather than God.

Thanks.
Perhaps we need to define "dismiss".

Apologies to @Hmm
I'm taking this thread WAY off topic.
I'll try to steer back in the right direction shortly.

 

[Jipsah]

Well... everyone biting Christ in John 6 - does not leave any room to even have "the last supper".

Sure. As I said, literalism when it suits your doctrine as set forth by your prophet, and just symbolism when it doesn't. So you maintain that the universe is - what? 6000 years old? - when it manifestly is not, but cast aside the very words of our Lord, which He reiterated on more than one occasion. And that's typical of SDA exegesis, to begin with a doctrinal position assumed a priori then "interpret" the Scripture to fit. For instance, the exegetical gymnastics y'all have to perform to preserve the Mosaic dietary laws intact are particularly hilarious.

 

[Jipsah]

The Kola Bore Hole in Russia is one example. It is currently the deepest hole on the planet. They lowered a special mic into it and got a recording. It melted b/c the calculated temperatures were hotter than expected. The audio sounds like millions of people constantly screaming.

The hole is there, the "screaming people" bit is pure fiction.

 

[d taylor]

If I remember correctly, it is 2,000 miles on every side.
How tall is the dome? (atmosphere)

I have read 1500 miles in all directions. I am guessing the sun could be 2000 to 5000 miles high now so there is room. If not the proportions will work out on the new earth

 

[Der Alte]

But Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning are they?
How to explain this? What about the fire is described as "eternal" because it is from God, not because it is going to burn forever, which it very clearly didn't? * * *

The fire came from heaven. Nothing says the fire did not return to heaven after destroying Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain.

 

[Mark Quayle]

John witnessed the angel measuring the New Jerusalem. Why would you measure the Bride of Christ like a physical object?

Yes, indeed! Curious, eh? I don't know, but I expect to find out. One lesson out of it, though, is that we do not see things the way God does, and Heaven is immensely more than what we can possibly imagine! Another is that God deals with us corporately in a way that modern man is uncomfortable with, and individually in a way modern man cannot even conceive of. We are members of each other, in him.