Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​

See also following post.

 

[Der Alte]

When Jesus talked about "Gehenna He was not talking about a contstantly burning trash dump in the valley of Gehenna. There never was a trash dump in Gehenna. There was a trash dump near Jerusalem but it was not in Gehenna but the next valley over the Kidron valley.
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Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage

The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna – BiblePlaces.com

 

[Jamdoc]

I would agree with what you state here, from my view point, I can not imagine heaven and its glory, plus what it is going to even look like nor how amazed we will be when first entering, and we know for sure hell is a torment that Christians are extremely thankful for the fact that Jesus made a way for us to not have to dwell on if its hotter than the torment being the worse of two since there will be no relief, thank God for His grace and Jesus for dying to pay our sin debt.

Things are... I don't really particularly care about glory.. and no oceans, and no night sky is ... kind of a downer for me.
so to me the beauty is already marred.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *
Revelation 14:10-11
King James Version
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
( So once something turns to smoke That is a forever consequence.
There is no reconstituting say, fat to its former self or form once it hits the Fire. Its no more. To perish. For God is a consuming fire. )

In the normal course of events you would be correct. Something which is burned up is apparently gone forever but if God wants something to survive being burned He can and has done that.

Exodus 3:1-3
(1) Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.​

Daniel 3:22-27
(22) Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
(23) And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
(24) Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
(25) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
(26) Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
(27) And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.​

 

[Saint Steven]

I would agree with what you state here, from my view point, I can not imagine heaven and its glory, plus what it is going to even look like nor how amazed we will be when first entering, and we know for sure hell is a torment that Christians are extremely thankful for the fact that Jesus made a way for us to not have to dwell on if its hotter than the torment being the worse of two since there will be no relief, thank God for His grace and Jesus for dying to pay our sin debt.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. Is God held to a lower standard than we are?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. Is God held to a lower standard than we are?

so what is your point? Are you saying no one goes to hell?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Things are... I don't really particularly care about glory.. and no oceans, and no night sky is ... kind of a downer for me.
so to me the beauty is already marred.

So what beauty are you talking about that is already marred?

 

[Jamdoc]

So what beauty are you talking about that is already marred?

Just that while we don't know what all is there, we know some things that are not there, and some of those things are things I find beautiful.
and they're gone forever.
that means all the life in the oceans?
Extinct
gone forever.
God has no place for them in eternity I guess.
Our sin killed them forever and ever.
had sin never happened? Eden would exist, and God declared the seas and all that was in them good.

But on the new Earth, I guess God changed His mind about the seas and all in them to be good.
Because during the wrath of God, everything in the seas dies.. and on the new earth, there are no seas.

 

[Saint Steven]

so what is your point? Are you saying no one goes to hell?

That might depend on your definition of "hell".
Everyone is going to "hell" for an age. The age of restoration.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Jamdoc]

That might depend on your definition of "hell".
Everyone is going to "hell" for an age. The age of restoration.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

No, absolutely no.
Whatever is meant by the imagery in that verse it's inconsistent with the rest of the bible that we need to be forgiven by the crucifixion of Jesus AND... something else.
Like suffering through fiery torment for any period of time.

What you do with that doctrine is teach that Christ is insufficient for Salvation.
That is heresy.
Fiery torment is not a part of any sort of purification.
That's the thing that Jesus died to save us from.

I may have doubts as to what we are saved FOR and TO
but I do know what we are saved FROM, and I know by WHAT (more specifically WHO) we are saved.

The problem is.. if you believe we all go through fiery torment to be purified and made acceptable to God.... then it is not the death of Jesus Christ you believe saves you, but rather it is Hell that you believe saves you. It devalues the blood of Jesus when people do that, makes His death be for nothing. It's the death of the Son of God! The only thing worthy of that death, is the complete, and utter atonement for sin, and victory over death.
and if you go down that road, putting your faith in fire to purify you, oh you can go to a place of fire, but it will not purify you, and you will never leave it.

I'm sorry this rebuke sounds harsh.. I never claimed to be good with people.
But it is a truth with deadly severity to stray from.

 

[Der Alte]

...

That might depend on your definition of "hell".
Everyone is going to "hell" for an age. The age of restoration.
Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

The problems with this response. "Salting" has nothing to do with "hell" or "restoration."
Evidently somebody decided they would take this verse and see how they could turn it and twist it to make it appear to support UR without learning what it was really about..

Leviticus 2:13
(13) And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.​

All meat offerings were to be salted. But first the meat offering must be acceptable to the God. If the offering was not acceptable to God the salt did not make it acceptable. And the salt certainly did not save it.

ETA: In response to the OP question.
"Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell? It ain't but certain religious groups try to make them fuzzy to make them appear to support their assumptions/presuppositions that there is no "hell" or "eternal punishment."

 

[Jamdoc]

The problems with this response. "Salting" has nothing to do with "hell" or "restoration."
Evidently somebody decided they would take this verse and see how they could turn it and twist it to make it appear to support UR without learning what it was really about..

Leviticus 2:13
(13) And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.​

All meat offerings were to be salted. But first the meat offering must be acceptable to the God. If the offering was not acceptable to God the salt did not make it acceptable. And the salt certainly did not save it.

ETA: In response to the OP question.
"Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell? It ain't but certain religious groups try to make them fuzzy to make them appear to support their assumptions/presuppositions that there is no "hell" or "eternal punishment."

But would you agree that scripture is relatively fuzzy about heaven?
Jesus had to describe it in parables. He never outright described heaven.
He did not describe hell in parables there's a few parables discussing hell sure, but he was also pretty straightforward about some things regarding hell.

 

[Hmm]

It devalues the blood of Jesus when people do that, makes His death be for nothing. It's the death of the Son of God!

That's not logical. Christ died for the sins of the while world as scripture tells us repeatedly. It devalues the death of the Son of God to say that it was insufficient and only covers the sins of the few.

I'm sorry this rebuke sounds harsh..

I don't regard what you said as a rebuke because a rebuke has to be correct.

 

[Jamdoc]

That's not logical. Christ died for the sins of the while world as scripture tells us repeatedly. It devalues the death of the Son of God to say that it was insufficient and only covers the sins of the few.



I don't regard what you said as a rebuke because a rebuke has to be correct.

If you're teaching that Christ isn't what saves you but being purified in purgatory is what saves you, then Christ is sufficient for nothing, and died for nothing.

 

[Hmm]

If you're teaching that Christ isn't what saves you but being purified in purgatory is what saves you, then Christ is sufficient for nothing, and died for nothing.

You clearly haven't understood a word of what I or anyone else sympathetic to UR ideas here have been saying. That's your loss.

 

[Jamdoc]

You clearly haven't understood a word of what I or anyone else sympathetic to UR ideas here have been saying. That's your loss.

what Stephen was saying was not just UR but actually teaching that Christians also go through hell.

Everyone is going to "hell" for an age. The age of restoration.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

what was being said there was that it was "hell" that restores us, not Christ.

Purgatory is a TERRIBLY heretical doctrine at its core, because what it teaches, is that Christ is not sufficient, you have to be purified through purgatory to reach heaven.
a lot of Catholic doctrines can go down that route and I fear for many Catholics because of it.
Using Mary as a mediator (despite 1 Timothy 2:5) because they are "not holy enough to pray to God directly" but that is what Jesus taught us to do.
and teaching that they are not holy enough, despite being saved, to go to heaven, so extra things have to be done on top of their salvation.

What I am saying in this case is that the work of Jesus Christ is sufficient for salvation.
Jesus said "it is finished"
We are not purified by fire, we are purchased with blood.

Hebrews 4

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[ozso]

What I am saying in this case is that the work of Jesus Christ is sufficient for salvation.
Jesus said "it is finished"
We are not purified by fire, we are purchased with blood.

Hebrews 4

Why do you think Christian symbols like this exist?

 

[ozso]

It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing.

Dante's version along with the Talmud's version of hell both come from paganism rather than scripture. Just because Jesus used symbiology the Pharisees had invented when addressing them, doesn't mean he was teaching it as something true. If a preacher tells a story about George Bailey meeting St. Peter at the Pearly Gates to illustrate a point, that doesn't mean he's telling a true story.

 

[ozso]

About four hundred years before Jesus started his ministry there had been no more prophets and no more holy scripture written. So the scribes and Pharisees started making stuff up. And they incorporated Egyptian, Greek and probably Babylonian (hence the Babylonian Talmud) paganism into it. The model Jesus gives for Hades in the story of The Rich man and Lazarus, comes from Greek mythology. That should be pretty obvious since he called it "Hades" in his story. Gehenna was were sacrifices to Molech took place. And Gehenna maybe might have been a burning garbage dump. But I think Jesus was using whatever the scribes and Pharisees made up about Gehenna, the same as he used what the Greeks made up about Hades, because the people he was talking to were familiar with that imagery. It seems reasonable to conclude Jesus was using familiar fictitious imagery when speaking figuratively and telling stories filled with symbolism.

Yeah yeah I know, WRONG! RUBBISH!

 

[Saint Steven]

What you do with that doctrine is teach that Christ is insufficient for Salvation.

On the contrary. Did Jesus succeed or fail his mission?

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.