Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

Fervent said:

When you simply have an adjective, what it is describing has to be known. You had to supply a noun when I asked "all what?" to make your view make sense. I need supply nothing with the prepositonal phrase, so the question in that instance is superfluous. It's not a game of cat and mouse, it's an issue of grammar. An adjective can't be the subject of a sentence, so "all" is insufficient to stand in that place. In English we can treat it as an ellipsis and supply a noun based on context, but ellipsis is the least transferrable grammatical object across languages.

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Davy said:

The word "hell" in God's Word is not always translated from the same manuscript word, so it's important to use a Lexicon to learn the definitions per the manuscripts. A simple Strong's Exhaustive Concordance will do.

The word "hell" sometimes means the "lake of fire", which is only about the future event at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign of Revelation 20. The Old Testament perpetual burning garbage pit, called the valley of Hinnom, outside Jerusalem, was one of the terms Lord Jesus used when pointing to that future destruction in the "lake of fire".

Other times, the word "hell" in the manuscripts is simply about the idea of Hades, an idea from the Greeks about an underworld. The most detailed account Jesus gave in Luke 16 about the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Jesus detailed Paradise with two separate sides, with a great gulf fixed border between them. The pagan Greeks called that border the river Styx. Hades represents the abode of the wicked in the heavenly dimension.

Then in 2 Peter 2:4, he used the idea of 'tartaroo', the deepest part of the abyss where the fallen angels are kept in chains until the judgement of the great day. This kind of reveals that even in the Heavenly, there is a prison, and it has different levels to it (also see Revelation 20:7 that uses the idea of a "prison" (KJV) for the abyss Satan is loosed one final time out of.

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Hmm said:

* * *
1 Corinthians 15:22. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
Keith DeRose in his article "Universalism and the Bible":
"It's very clear, I think, that those who are "made alive" in Christ are, as it's often put, "saved." The question is, To whom will this happen? This passage's answer: All! A point of grammar, which holds for the Greek as well as our English translations: The grammatical function of "in Christ" here is not to modify or limit the "all." The passage doesn't say"shall all be made alive in CHirst.", "...so also shall all who are in Christ be made alive." If it said that, I wouldn't be so cheered by the passage. Rather, "in Christ" is an adverbial phrase that modifies the verb "shall be made" or perhaps the whole clause, "shall all be made alive." Thus, this passage says that all shall be made alive. How? In Christ."

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wendykvw said:

Don’t give up on yourself or how God can help you find what is the best fit for you. Like I said, for me praying for others is one of the strengths I find, I am not super comfortable in social settings, so praying is a great way to express love for God and for His people. Satan can get a stronghold I believe most often through rejection. I struggled with rejection as many people do, the Lord does not reject us I can assure you that if you are feeling that way it is most likely a stronghold the enemy will use. Ask God in prayer to rebuke the enemy and for God’s love to fill you from head to toe. I will be praying for you and asking God to bless you abundantly in health, spirit and your entire being. God bless you.
The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. Psalms 34:18

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Hmm said:

You sound very unsure and what you say has no clarity.

Here's an analysis by Keith DeRose that's both confident and clear.

Just a reminder of the verse we're talking about:
1 Corinthians 15:22. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

Keith DeRose in his article "Universalism and the Bible":

"It's very clear, I think, that those who are "made alive" in Christ are, as it's often put, "saved." The question is, To whom will this happen? This passage's answer: All! A point of grammar, which holds for the Greek as well as our English translations: The grammatical function of "in Christ" here is not to modify or limit the "all." The passage doesn't say, "...so also shall all who are in Christ be made alive." If it said that, I wouldn't be so cheered by the passage. Rather, "in Christ" is an adverbial phrase that modifies the verb "shall be made" or perhaps the whole clause, "shall all be made alive." Thus, this passage says that all shall be made alive. How? In Christ."

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MMXX said:

Usually the way to see if scripture is saying what you think it says, is to compare scripture to scripture. Compare one passage to another.
Now is there another passage that can be compared to 1 Corinthians 15:22? Yes there is. And by the same author talking about the same thing no less. Now even though Romans appears before 1 Corinthians in our Bibles, it was written around 57 AD, whereas 1 Corinthians was written around 53-54 AD.
So Paul first wrote:
"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15.
Then Paul wrote:
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22
So it seems to me, Romans 5:15 gives us better clarity into understanding what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 15:22.
Therefore:
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

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MMXX said:

Usually the way to see if scripture is saying what you think it says, is to compare scripture to scripture. Compare one passage to another.

Now is there another passage that can be compared to 1 Corinthians 15:22? Yes there is. And by the same author talking about the same thing no less. Now even though Romans appears before 1 Corinthians in our Bibles, it was written around 57 AD, whereas 1 Corinthians was written around 53-54 AD.

So Paul first wrote:

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15.

Then Paul wrote:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

So it seems to me, Romans 5:15 gives us better clarity into understanding what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 15:22.

Therefore:

For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

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Der Alte said:

Paul used the word " πολλοι/polloi"/"many," 71 times.
Paul used the word "πας/pas"/"all," 375 times
When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas," not "polloi"/”many.”
Paul used “oi polloi”/”the many” 12 times where it clearly does not mean "all."
Romans 12:5, Romans 15:22-23, Romans 16:2,1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13
In one verse 1 Cor 10:33 Paul used “the many,” once, and “all,” twice, in the same verse.

1 Corinthians 10:33
33 Even as I please all [παντα] men in all [πασιν] things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many [των πολλων], that they may be saved.​

Paul certainly did not please every person alive during his lifetime.
Paul certainly did not please all men in literally all things.

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MMXX said:

In discussions involving universalism it's more the doctrinal teaching of hell, rather than the word hell itself. Such as:

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Jamdoc said:

I just said I don't think you can connect it with the previous verses about going to hell. But Mark is the only one that uses that, the parallel passages in the other synoptic Gospels don't say everyone experiences fire.

Because the parallel passages don't refer to anything like that and it's not a consistent message in the bible that even disciples of Jesus will be "purified by being burned by fire" which is the message of something like purgatory, I don't think in this case Jesus is saying something like that, maybe imagery like Paul used in 1 Corinthians 3.
The key being, imagery. Salt preserves, fire refines.
Maybe something connected to the imagery John the Baptist uses to describe Jesus as someone who baptizes in fire and the holy spirit.

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Davy said:

I'm not involved in so-called Universalist doctrines from men.

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MMXX said:

We seem to be at an impasse.

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Fervent said:

An impasse of me making a substantive argument, and your position not having a subject.

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Jamdoc said:

I gave up on myself years ago. In debt I can't repay, disabled, body broken and breaking down further, I got nothing.
whatever my calling was, I missed it.
Now all I pray is for Jesus to return, it is literally the only thing I can look forward to (which is why I am so vehemently against preterists. Because if they're right then I have nothing to look forward to but dying)


Thank you though.

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Der Alte said:

Here we have a "scholar" telling us how to interpret 1 Cor 15:22. The first line quoted above he quotes the vs. correctly "in Christ shall all be made alive." Then he juggles some words and changes the adjective "all" and preposition "in" to "an adverbial phrase" and ends up at by switching the vs around "an adverbial phrase that modifies the verb 'shall be made' or perhaps the whole clause, 'shall all be made alive.' Thus, this passage says that all shall be made alive. How? 'In Christ.'" Note the difference "in Christ shall all be made alive" He changed it to "shall all be made alive in Christ." If that is what Paul had wanted to say that is what he would have written.

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Hmm said:

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything comes in parables, 12 in order that
‘they may indeed look but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’ ”
​

Is it a deliberate ploy intended to make us reflect on these things as honestly as we can?

Or was it because that Jesus didn't want us to think too much about heaven and hell but instead to focus on living a Godly life while on earth?

Would it have been impossible for Him to have been clearer because our natural fear of the unknown, of "that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns" (Shakespeare), would have led us to interpret His words to conjure up the infernalist vision of something like ECT whatever He had said? The purpose of such a vision would be to justify and authenticate our fears to ourselves.

Or are there other reasons?

This is quite a gloomy topic but the the Good News is that God comes to find us in our misunderstanding and fear and brings us home. This is the universalist vision.

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Jamdoc said:

Looks like people disagree about whether scripture is clear about hell or not..
but it does seem like everyone agrees that scripture is very ambiguous about heaven, aside from it existing.

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JohnRemnant said:

From my studies I've got a clear view of what life after death is, the resurrection and what hell means In its finality.
( excuse the fonts. as I was having a hard time with the forums system. )
Christ is pretty clear on the use of the word hell. The actual base and true meaning, simply means Grave. Nothing more nor less.
As the Holy Spirit uses this in this way Acts 2:27, 31 as His own equivalent of Sheol in Psalm 16:10,
Acts 2:27
“Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
Acts 2:31
“He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”
The Hebrew language equaivlant used in the OT, is Sheol :
Psalms 16:10
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
So to get a grasp of what are the teaching surrounding this word
and what happens after the grave, after death, a study of The Bible and Christs teachings on it is vital on life after death, aka the resurrection of the body from flesh to spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15 : kjv
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Paul says, there is the natural, and the spiritual. The natural body, decays, its corruption in this sense, and it is raised a spiritual body at death, he called incorruption.
Paul later in the chapter around 50ish, beings a new subject, with the state of the actual soul, and its resurrection obtaining eternal life, or being in the state of mortality, meaning liable to die at The Great White Throne Judgment and being found worth of The Lake of Fire.
Revelation 20:6
“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
So from those previous passages, establish the meaning that Hell just means grave from The Hebrew , but it has been translated from a handful of Greek words as well. None really help save if you understand their context.
When Christ was speaking of the resurrection of the good and bad, for their Judgment, He taught the Parable of Lazarus and The Rich man Luke 16 kjv. This parable full of symbolic illustrations explain that in Paradise, there is one thing that divides people there. The state of their soul. Lazarus, having obtained that living water, enjoys Gods Kingdom or Paradise in profound peace.
While the Rich man wanders this place of beauty in shame rejected as an outsider before He whom he neglected in life, and mocked who now stands to Judge Him in The Latter Days.
Again being a parable, this is illustrated by the words flame, and torments. The rich man was tormenting himself for this situation he found himself in for certain. But a search of the uses of the words Torments, reveals this is actually a touchstone. A Criterion The Rich man cannot measure up to in this place. God being there.
It maybe useful to see what this word means further
2: a test or criterion for determining the quality or genuineness of a thing.3: a black siliceous stone related to flint that is used to test the purity of gold and formerly silver by the streak left on the stone when rubbed by the metal
This purity, and of metals like gold may jog your memory about all the passages related to refining people in Gods fire. To see what if any value remains. Gold, silver, or dross and stubble that just burns away.
Revelation 3:18
King James Version
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
( So apply this to the rich man. He has no rightous acts that weave the robes of heaven in a sense. The shame of his nakedness appears, for the failing of this test.)
Ecclesiasticus 2:5
“For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity.”
1 Peter 1:7
King James Version
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
So The Rich man, and Lazarus both remain there until Judgment Day. This initial Judgment I would call what its phrased here by Paul :
2 Corinthians 5:10
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
The Great White Throne Judgment Day, only transpires after The Lords Day concludes , Then The Lake of Fire comes into existence which is the second death for anyone that follows Satan into it when the time comes. Revelation 20 kjv.
The other form the word hell takes, is when speaking of the Final Judgment. Not simply the grave of the flesh in resurrection. But actually the final grave of the soul the second death.
As Christ would teach if you had any ought to fear someone, it would be God :
Matthew 10:28
King James Version
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Revelation 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Christ would use a word to illustrate this "hell" with the term Gai' Hinnom.
It was a Garbage pit outside of Jerusalem. But in old times, it was the place where people used to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch. In the OT, Tophet was the word used for this idolatry .
Jeremiah 7:31
“And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.”
In The Lord Christs' time, the fires of this sin ceased. But Christ used this place, which then became the trash pit for the refuse of Jerusalem, as a illustration. And object lesson, for the degradation of a soul that falls to such a place, and eventually, to their own destruction.
In another place God illustrates for us what The Lake of Fire, and the second death it causes actually does. Not speaking in a parable, but simply stating it
Psalms 37:20
“But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
Perish, is the opposite of Eternal Life as we read here in John 3:16
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
But in the symbolic expression of The Truth we can read as it is presented in Revelation, and having studied the previous passage, it is made clear and understandable.
Revelation 14:10-11
King James Version
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
( So once something turns to smoke That is a forever consequence.
There is no reconstituting say, fat to its former self or form once it hits the Fire. Its no more. To perish. For God is a consuming fire. )

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