Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[ozso]

There's no need to specify "what" or "who" is "in Christ" for "all in Christ" to be a specific and complete subject. We may supply a "who" or similar, but the phrases are substantive on their own and form a complete subject. "All" by itself is an adjective and can't stand as a subject without a noun being supplied.

LOL. I give up.

 

[Fervent]

LOL.

It's a simple grammatical issue, don't know why you think it's funny. "All" is incomplete for a subject because as you pointed out it could be all fish, all melons, all of nothing, or all of everything. It describes (something) and if we don't know what it is describing it can't be the subject of a sentence. When we limit it with a prepositional phrase like "in Adam" or "in Christ" it becomes a substantive and can stand as the subject of a sentence, we may add words to increase clarity but they're not grammatically necessary. Your question is superflous because "all in Adam" tells you all what, it's everything that is contained "in Adam."

 

[Hmm]

There's no maze. You're making an inappropriate inference based on the structure of the English, I'm treating it according to the Greek grammar which bears no such ambiguity. It's a statement of federal headship, with the subjects of the clauses being "all in Adam" and "all in Christ."

"All in Adam" and "all in Christ" are substantives(they act like nouns), "all" bears no noun.

You sound very unsure and what you say has no clarity.

Here's an analysis by Keith DeRose that's both confident and clear.

Just a reminder of the verse we're talking about:
1 Corinthians 15:22. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

Keith DeRose in his article "Universalism and the Bible":

"It's very clear, I think, that those who are "made alive" in Christ are, as it's often put, "saved." The question is, To whom will this happen? This passage's answer: All! A point of grammar, which holds for the Greek as well as our English translations: The grammatical function of "in Christ" here is not to modify or limit the "all." The passage doesn't say, "...so also shall all who are in Christ be made alive." If it said that, I wouldn't be so cheered by the passage. Rather, "in Christ" is an adverbial phrase that modifies the verb "shall be made" or perhaps the whole clause, "shall all be made alive." Thus, this passage says that all shall be made alive. How? In Christ."

 

[Fervent]

You sound very unsure and what you say has no clarity.

Here's an analysis by Keith DeRose that's both confident and clear.

Here's the verse we're talking about:
1 Corinthians 15:22. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

Keith DeRose in his article "Universalism_and_the_Bible":

"It's very clear, I think, that those who are "made alive" in Christ are, as it's often put, "saved." The question is, To whom will this happen? This passage's answer: All! A point of grammar, which holds for the Greek as well as our English translations: The grammatical function of "in Christ" here is not to modify or limit the "all." The passage doesn't say, "...so also shall all who are in Christ be made alive." If it said that, I wouldn't be so cheered by the passage. Rather, "in Christ" is an adverbial phrase that modifies the verb "shall be made" or perhaps the whole clause, "shall all be made alive." Thus, this passage says that all shall be made alive. How? In Christ."

Amazing how now you are suddenly qualified to evaluate arguments. Given your own insistence on your woeful inability to understand, I'll take your complaint about not being clearr and being unconfident with a grain of salt.

That said I can't help but notice he makes his argument on English grammar, and bases it on the English rendering. A prime fallacy that is discussed in every translational fallacy books.

The problem is that in Greek what determines where to place the prepositional phrase in the sentence(in the subject vs in the predicate) is the case ending, and the case ending that is present places it in the subject, not the predicate which is good because without the prepositional phrase the sentences would be grammatically incomplete since an adjective is not a proper subject.

 

[Hmm]

Amazing how now you are suddenly qualified to evaluate arguments. Given your own insistence on your woeful inability to understand, I'll take your complaint about not being clearr and being unconfident with a grain of salt.

That said I can't help but notice he makes his argument on English grammar, and bases it on the English rendering. A prime fallacy that is discussed in every translational fallacy books.

The problem is that in Greek what determines where to place the prepositional phrase in the sentence(in the subject vs in the predicate) is the case ending, and the case ending that is present places it in the subject, not the predicate which is good because without the prepositional phrase the sentences would be grammatically incomplete since an adjective is not a proper subject.

I give up too!

 

[ozso]

It's a simple grammatical issue, don't know why you think it's funny. "All" is incomplete for a subject because as you pointed out it could be all fish, all melons, all of nothing, or all of everything. It describes (something) and if we don't know what it is describing it can't be the subject of a sentence. When we limit it with a prepositional phrase like "in Adam" or "in Christ" it becomes a substantive and can stand as the subject of a sentence, we may add words to increase clarity but they're not grammatically necessary. Your question is superflous because "all in Adam" tells you all what, it's everything that is contained "in Adam."

It wasn't my question, it was your question. And we are getting nowhere with this. It went off the rails a while ago and has just been a game of cat and mouse. And I've gotten too old to be willing to invest much time and energy in such pursuits. Hmm is younger so maybe you can keep him going at it longer. But I'm done with the "all" game.

 

[ozso]

Amazing how now you are suddenly qualified to evaluate arguments. Given your own insistence on your woeful inability to understand

So you're basically calling people stupid now

 

[Hmm]

Hmm is younger so maybe you can keep him going at it longer.

I may have been before all this but certainly not now! I've rapidly reached retirement (from Fervent) age.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Good topic, thanks.
This question, quoted above, caught my eye.

Seems to be exactly what happened. The emphasis on an eternal destiny became the primary driver of the church.

There was a topic a while back where the question was asked: "If there was no afterlife, would you still follow Jesus?" (something like that) I was shocked at the majority response. A firm and resounding, "No. With no afterlife it would be pointless." (something like that)

No value was seen in a right relationship with God, in the here and now, if there was no "reward" of heaven.

To that end the church has labels. The "lost", the "saved", the "Elect", predestination, etc. Us and them.

I think a lot of people who call themselves Christians have never seen and tasted God and don’t know the love of God or his character. If they did they would know He is worth loving because of who He is. I think too many people just adopt a form of religion so they can escape what they think is a eternal torture chamber and try to make sure the good outweighs the bad . Too much of what we call Christian is all about heaven or hell not realizing that Jesus died to give us life now not just in the afterlife, if all people on earth would follow God now in the mortal body could you imagine what a beautiful place this world would be, but sadly too many people are only focusing on the next age to come not this one.

 

[Hmm]

I think a lot of people who call themselves Christians have never seen and tasted God and don’t know the love of God or his character. If they did they would know He is worth loving because of who He is. I think too many people just adopt a form of religion so they can escape what they think is a eternal torture chamber and try to make sure the good outweighs the bad . Too much of what we call Christian is all about heaven or hell not realizing that Jesus died to give us life now not just in the afterlife, if all people on earth would follow God now in the mortal body could you imagine what a beautiful place this world would be, but sadly too many people are only focusing on the next age to come not this one.

Yes, we're called upon as Christians to be kingdom builders, to participate in God's project of creating the new heaven and new earth that He began with the resurrection. And we do this through acts of love, by feeding the hungry and giving shelter to the homeless, not sitting around feeling self-satisfied that we've got it sussed and are going to heaven while those who disagree with us are going to hell. What a betrayal of Christ's message to love one another! And I'm not claiming to do all that myself because I don't.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, if the writers of the article can't even get a guy's age right, I'm not sure I can trust them on the eternal verities, thank you so much.

Who said it was the writer's error or even an error at all? The age may be correct didn't some of the OT people live 100s of years? It may have been a printer's type setting error.
Seems like you will grasp at any straw trying desperately to prop up UR.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not in a position to insist on anything because, like you, I am not a professional scholar. I merely listen to what they say. It's really not that difficult. 'Correction lasting an age', or something like it, are what the words mean.

If you are not a scholar, and certainly not a professional scholar, why do you insist that "aionios" does not mean "eternal," but "age during" or some such nonsense, despite irrefutable evidence to the contrary and insist "Kolasis" means "prune, correction" despite evidence to the contrary?
In this post you have changed a single adjective into 4 words "correction lasting an age."
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars translators of the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect.
Here are three vss. where Jesus is speaking all of which conclusively show that "aionios" means "eternal."

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εἰς τους αἰῶνας/lit. unto the eternity [aionas [PlMas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here definitely means eternity.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
Here are two vss. written by Paul which conclusively show that "aionios" means "eternal."

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios Godhead” synonymous with “aionios God.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

 

[Fervent]

It wasn't my question, it was your question. And we are getting nowhere with this. It went off the rails a while ago and has just been a game of cat and mouse. And I've gotten too old to be willing to invest much time and energy in such pursuits. Hmm is younger so maybe you can keep him going at it longer. But I'm done with the "all" game.

When you simply have an adjective, what it is describing has to be known. You had to supply a noun when I asked "all what?" to make your view make sense. I need supply nothing with the prepositonal phrase, so the question in that instance is superfluous. It's not a game of cat and mouse, it's an issue of grammar. An adjective can't be the subject of a sentence, so "all" is insufficient to stand in that place. In English we can treat it as an ellipsis and supply a noun based on context, but ellipsis is the least transferrable grammatical object across languages.

 

[Der Alte]

When you simply have an adjective, what it is describing has to be known. You had to supply a noun when I asked "all what?" to make your view make sense. I need supply nothing with the prepositonal phrase, so the question in that instance is superfluous. It's not a game of cat and mouse, it's an issue of grammar. An adjective can't be the subject of a sentence, so "all" is insufficient to stand in that place. In English we can treat it as an ellipsis and supply a noun based on context, but ellipsis is the least transferrable grammatical object across languages.

I'm sure you have noticed as I have that a favorite deception of the UR group is to
rearrange the words in 1 Cor 15:22

1 Corinthians 15:22
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

In the UR version "in Christ shall all be made alive" subtly becomes "all shall be made alive in Christ."

 

[Davy]

Presumably God would have foreseen that the vagueness in the Bible about heaven and hell would lead to different interpretations and the arguments we see today about Infernalism, Annihalism and Universalism.

Did He have a good reason for keeping things so undefined?

The word "hell" in God's Word is not always translated from the same manuscript word, so it's important to use a Lexicon to learn the definitions per the manuscripts. A simple Strong's Exhaustive Concordance will do.

The word "hell" sometimes means the "lake of fire", which is only about the future event at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign of Revelation 20. The Old Testament perpetual burning garbage pit, called the valley of Hinnom, outside Jerusalem, was one of the terms Lord Jesus used when pointing to that future destruction in the "lake of fire".

Other times, the word "hell" in the manuscripts is simply about the idea of Hades, an idea from the Greeks about an underworld. The most detailed account Jesus gave in Luke 16 about the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Jesus detailed Paradise with two separate sides, with a great gulf fixed border between them. The pagan Greeks called that border the river Styx. Hades represents the abode of the wicked in the heavenly dimension.

Then in 2 Peter 2:4, he used the idea of 'tartaroo', the deepest part of the abyss where the fallen angels are kept in chains until the judgement of the great day. This kind of reveals that even in the Heavenly, there is a prison, and it has different levels to it (also see Revelation 20:7 that uses the idea of a "prison" (KJV) for the abyss Satan is loosed one final time out of.

 

[wendykvw]

It's more that they were never saved to begin with...
that's always the fear with verses like those.. especially in combination with Calvinism, which with Romans 9 seems to be supported, and in that case it opens the possibility that you choose God but God has not chosen you.

I have to fall back on some things Jesus said in John 6





So.. I have to trust that if I choose Jesus, He chose me too, and that He wouldn't reject me if I come to Him.
but doubting my own self worth is one of my largest hurdles.
"why choose me, I'm worthless"
"why even create me, I don't even like singing"
"what can I do for the gospel, I think that I'm so bad with people that I couldn't even convince someone that water is wet, they'd disagree with me just because it's me telling them and obviously I'm wrong about everything"

like.. Ive encountered people arguing , and using Jesus' name as a curse.. and so.. I thought, Gospel opportunity
and tried telling them about Jesus
oh it stopped the fight
they just both started cursing me and cursing Jesus instead of each other.
I'm just... really bad about it.

Are you talking about sharing the gospel? If so the best any of us can do is just love people where they are at and pray for them, and God will do the rest.

 

[Jamdoc]

Are you talking about sharing the gospel? If so the best any of us can do is just love people where they are at and pray for them, and God will do the rest.

Yeah... there's always just pressure that every single person's "calling" is to be an evangelist, missionary, or preacher of some sort, I don't have any skills in those arenas whatsoever so I feel ill equipped to do that
but I certainly don't know my calling, I thought it was in the medical field but God showed me no several times and the harder I pushed my own way the worse the chastisement became
until I became crippled and realized God was saying "that wasn't it"
but when looking for what it even was.. I got nothing, except everyone says that EVERYONE's calling is to... somehow be an evangelist or preacher.

 

[wendykvw]

Yeah... there's always just pressure that every single person's "calling" is to be an evangelist, missionary, or preacher of some sort, I don't have any skills in those arenas whatsoever so I feel ill equipped to do that
but I certainly don't know my calling, I thought it was in the medical field but God showed me no several times and the harder I pushed my own way the worse the chastisement became
until I became crippled and realized God was saying "that wasn't it"
but when looking for what it even was.. I got nothing, except everyone says that EVERYONE's calling is to... somehow be an evangelist or preacher.

Have you thought about what you are most comfortable or passionate about? I find that what we feel most naturally drawn to is where our spiritual gifting is and usually compliments our natural gifting. For example a nurse or medical professional in their natural state are Drawn towards healing, they may also have the spiritual gift of healing. Healing can be someone with good listening skills. Every once in a while a stranger may just need someone who will listen and we can always pray. Praying is another gift, the gift of intercession is stepping in and praying for someone we know personally or don’t know. Years ago a Pastor I listened to suggested we pray for the garbage man or the mechanic, anyone we came into a short contact with we should pray for that person. I try my best to just randomly pray for someone who I don’t know anything about.
Here is a spiritual gift test you may like:
Spiritual Gifts Test - Rock Church

 

[Jamdoc]

Have you thought about what you are most comfortable or passionate about? I find that what we feel most naturally drawn to is where our spiritual gifting is and is usually compliments our natural gifting. For example a nurse or medical professional in their natural state are Drawn towards healing, they may also have the spiritual gift of healing. Healing can be someone with good listening skills. Every once in a while a stranger may just need someone who will listen and we can always pray. Praying is another gift, the gift of intercession is stepping in and praying for someone we know personally or don’t know. Years ago a Pastor I listened to suggested we pray for the garbage man or the mechanic, anyone we came into a short contact with we should pray for that person. I try my best to just randomly pray for someone who I don’t know anything about.
Here is a spiritual gift test you may like:
Spiritual Gifts Test - Rock Church

That was why I went into medicine, originally I went to try for medical school, got mono but there were 2 medical records for me at the university clinic, so they used the wrong one where my diagnosis wasn't there so I flunked that semester because of absences, I couldn't medically withdraw. So I went into the Navy, to be a field medic.. and started having joint problems that couldn't be explained so eventually I couldn't hang in there for a career either. Scaled back again, to laboratory technician, went to school again, joint problems got worse, almost had to withdraw again because many days I couldn't make it in because I couldn't walk or drive. Finally graduated, but then the joint attacks started lasting months rather than days. Was finally diagnosed with Psoriatic Arthritis, multiarticular, and severe, my cartilage was shot, and so had to start taking immunosuppressive therapy.
Followed by MS... more immunosuppressive therapy.
What this told me was not only did I have mobility issues that would prevent me from working a lot of the time, but also.. I certainly can't work in a healthcare setting where I'd be exposed to disease more frequently.

The best I can figure is, maybe I was supposed to go into veterinary medicine, not humans.
Because while I'm really bad with people (one of the things with me not working out in nursing which was most of my job as a medic was my bedside manner, I was not.. good at sugar coating bad news, which sometimes patients need), I've always been good with animals, and every time I see like, videos of people helping wild animals, and rescues and stuff.. I feel pulled. But I thought you know.. I knew better, that caring for humans is more noble... I dunno.
I just know that I don't work well with people on any level.
I've always felt a level of rejection from other people.
Even in the Church
and certainly within the world.
"Alone in a crowd" is possibly the best description of how I feel, all the time.

To feel that God's "purpose" for me is to do something I don't even enjoy forever, and that "He will change you to like it!" is just another form of being rejected to me. To reject who I am and replace me with someone else more convenient. What an awful concept I guess... to feel that even your creator rejects you and wants you to be someone else.

That's why I'm frustrated with the vagueness of heavenly rewards. I only have an equally vague guess as to what I was meant to do, and it doesn't align with what scripture says it is in the new testament.. rather.. it aligns with Genesis 2's purpose for mankind.
It's why Matthew 22:30 might as well be a dagger to me, because it tells me I'll never have someone who accepts ME.

So between experiences of heavy chastisement, rejection, eternal rewards being vague, and basically a promise that the person I am is unacceptable and has no place anywhere or with anyone...
I accept the wrath of God and punishment of God way easier than the love of God and rewards from God.

 

[wendykvw]

Don’t give up on yourself or how God can help you find what is the best fit for you. Like I said, for me praying for others is one of the strengths I find, I am not super comfortable in social settings, so praying is a great way to express love for God and for His people. Satan can get a stronghold I believe most often through rejection. I struggled with rejection as many people do, the Lord does not reject us I can assure you that if you are feeling that way it is most likely a stronghold the enemy will use. Ask God in prayer to rebuke the enemy and for God’s love to fill you from head to toe. I will be praying for you and asking God to bless you abundantly in health, spirit and your entire being. God bless you.
The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. Psalms 34:18