Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

[Jamdoc]

I've asked you to show me where scripture talks about eternal torment, which was your claim. If you can't, you can't.

are you just choosing to ignore?

Revelation 20:10

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Those not in the Lamb's book of life also go to the same place, are they NOT tormented for ever and ever?

want a second witness to establish the truth?
Revelation 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

at this point if you're going to ignore those verses, I'm done with you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Because it's about Him, not us.
That's why.

Let's look at John 11, the story of Lazarus



So let's break that down. Jesus loved Lazarus, but instead of going to help him when he was sick, and Jesus had the power to do so, He healed many who were sick, Jesus procrastinated.
Jesus let Lazarus die.
He loved Lazarus, but let him die.
Lazarus even means "God will help" But here, at least on the surface, God refused to help.

Why? Because resurrecting someone from the dead, brings more glory to God, than healing someone who is sick.

Now jumping down a bit, Jesus has now told his disciples that Lazarus was dead and was going to see him.



So we see, that yes, Jesus let Lazarus die, and said no to helping him while he was still alive. But it was not something that He enjoyed having to do. This was not light or frivolous, it was to greater establish that He is the Son of God and He is the resurrection and the life.

So God is neither a genie in a bottle giving us everything we wish
Nor is God a playground bully, He actually does care, even if He causes us to suffer for a season.

He does what is greatest for His own glory, but at the same time... I have to believe that He will make it worth it for us as well, because He does care.

I just wish the bible was less fuzzy on that part.

Because if your only promise is to see the person who refused to help you when you needed it.... that's not much of a reward.

I don't know how, because the bible is fuzzy on it, but I believe God would make it up to Lazarus in a way to have made his suffering and perhaps two deaths (unless he was raptured to not die the second time, the bible doesn't mention it) worth it.... and more so than just, seeing the God that let you die perhaps twice.

I actually agree with many points you are making here.
But wanted to respond by saying Jesus couldn't heal anyone.
Only God can do that.

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

simply "souls" already tells me that they have an unbiblical view on eternity that poses problems from the getgo
Because the promise is a physical resurrection, and a new earth.

Nah, I just explained it poorly.

The part God created, is separated from the sin that he didn't create by the lake of fire, the all consuming presence of His love.

But those who are purified in this manner are less self aware than a newborn baby, so the "sinner" still dies.

 

[Jamdoc]

I actually agree with many points you are making here.
But wanted to respond by saying Jesus couldn't heal anyone.
Only God can do that.

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Jesus is God, that's kind of the entire main point of Revelation to reveal that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

 

[Jamdoc]

Nah, I just explained it poorly.

The part God created, is separated from the sin that he didn't create by the lake of fire, the all consuming presence of His love.

But those who are purified in this manner are less self aware than a newborn baby, so the "sinner" still dies.

Do you have scripture to support this particular idea? Because what's ringing in my head right now is "we shall know as we are known"
although Paul uses the singular I in the verse itself
1 Corinthians 13

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

which does not support at all a personality and memory wipe.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Do you have scripture to support this particular idea? Because what's ringing in my head right now is "we shall know as we are known"
although Paul uses the singular I in the verse itself
1 Corinthians 13

which does not support at all a personality and memory wipe.

The "we" in 1st Corinthians 13 relates to born again Christians.

For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17)

Judgment begins with us, but at some point in the future, Jesus will say "behold I make all things new" - this is after all the contents are emptied into the lake of fire. So at that point, those cleansed in the lake of pur, will be made into something or someone new.

The salvation covenant is to determine who will be the rulers alongside God.

in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:7)

Whom will God show his generosity to through us in the "coming ages?"

 

[ozso]

Okay, so, what about those who do not believe on Christ.
What happens to them?
How is it "universalism" if it has a condition attached to it?

According to Christian universalism, no one comes to salvation except through belief and faith in Jesus. You're going to have to learn how it actually works, if you want to effectively argue against it. And it's not difficult to figure out. I myself am not a universalist. I just understand how it works. But I find myself replying in support of the doctrine of Christian universalism because of the bad arguments I see against it.

 

[ozso]

I dislike to believe many other Christian's version of heaven, because what it is, is actually 2 hells. One has less fire maybe, but still you're just supposed to suffer doing something that maybe you hate forever and ever, which isn't a lot better.
Annihilationism would be preferable to that.

Then you might be interested in hearing the original version:

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus is God, that's kind of the entire main point of Revelation to reveal that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

While that is true in some respect, I am referring to something else.

Philippians 2:5-8 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

 

[Jamdoc]

The "we" in 1st Corinthians 13 relates to born again Christians.

For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17)

Judgment begins with us, but at some point in the future, Jesus will say "behold I make all things new" - this is after all the contents are emptied into the lake of fire. So at that point, those cleansed in the lake of pur, will be made into something or someone new.

The salvation covenant is to determine who will be the rulers alongside God.

in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:7)

Whom will God show his generosity to through us in the "coming ages?"

That's quite a leap of logic to make
I don't see it as being supported.
because the lake of fire is for ever and ever in Revelation 20, and those who worship the beast are also tormented for ever and ever.

 

[Der Alte]

According to Christian universalism, no one comes to salvation except through belief and faith in Jesus. You're going to have to learn how it actually works, if you want to effectively argue against it. And it's not difficult to figure out. I myself am not a universalist. I just understand how it works. But I find myself replying in support of the doctrine of Christian universalism because of the bad arguments I see against it.

"According to Christian universalism, no one comes to salvation except through belief and faith in Jesus." But there is not one single vs. which states this can or will happen after death.

JPS Proverbs 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1 Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Proverbs 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
​

 

[ozso]

The problem with Revelation is it uses a lot of exaggerated figurative hyperbolic apocalyptic language and it's very hard to follow. That's why there's so many different interpretations of it. And it's not known for sure who wrote it. When it comes to the "lake of fire" there's no way to compare scripture with scripture, because such a place/thing is not mentioned by any other author of scripture.

 

[ozso]

Hebrews 9:27 doesn't really allow for that.

Hebrews 9:27 is about the only rebuttal of its kind which is why it's exclusively used so much. I'm sure you know that an argument that can only be sustained by one verse is considered weak. And it doesn't even shoot down the concept of progressive salvation. We know that everyone is going to face judgement after they die. Many Christians dread the fact that they're going to face judgement. But is that judgement final? Will there be no growth and progression for us afterwards? Are we going to be stuck in the same place for eternity? No advancement for us believers whatsoever?

 

[Jamdoc]

Hebrews 9:27 is about the only rebuttal of its kind which is why it's exclusively used so much. I'm sure you know that an argument that can only be sustained by one verse is considered weak. And it doesn't even shoot down the concept of progressive salvation. We know that everyone is going to face judgement after they die. Many Christians dread the fact that they're going to face judgement. But is that judgement final? Will there be no growth and progression for us afterwards? Are we going to be stuck in the same place for eternity? No advancement for us believers whatsoever?

Well, it's more than Hebrews 9:27

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This btw is the original revelation of 2 separate resurrections that are shown in Revelation 20, and also is part of rapture doctrine, because the resurrection precedes the rapture AT Christ's return, but the 2nd resurrection takes place AFTER Christ's return.

anyway moving on

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In all 3 cases there is a resurrection of the dead, followed by a judgement, and that judgement seems quite final. Daniel terms it as shame and everlasting contempt, John 5 terms it as the resurrection of damnation, and Revelation 20 terms it as the lake of fire; the second death.

Where would you ever get that damnation is a temporary state you can grow out of?

But I'll agree.. basing a doctrine on one single verse can be flimsy
but this is 3 more witnesses, all saying the same thing. A resurrection, and then a final judgement, with an everlasting consequence.

 

[Hmm]

Hebrews 9:27 is about the only rebuttal of its kind which is why it's exclusively used so much. I'm sure you know that an argument that can only be sustained by one verse is considered weak. And it doesn't even shoot down the concept of progressive salvation. We know that everyone is going to face judgement after they die. Many Christians dread the fact that they're going to face judgement. But is that judgement final? Will there be no growth and progression for us afterwards? Are we going to be stuck in the same place for eternity? No advancement for us believers whatsoever?

Agreed Things must be pretty desperate for infernalists if this verse this one of their mainstays against universalism. Let's remind ourselves if the verse:

“People are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment” (Heb. 9:27).

As you say, this doesn't shoot down progressive salvation Judgement and punishment are not the same.

Judgment can result in acquittal or remedial punishment. It doesn't always have to end in eternal torture - that is simply absurd.

It seems to me Hebrews 9:27 could actually be used to support UR because it leaves open the possibility that remedial judgment - a process that will lead to salvation - occurs after death. Following remedial judgment or correction, all will turn to Christ in repentance and faith

 

[Jamdoc]

The problem with Revelation is it uses a lot of exaggerated figurative hyperbolic apocalyptic language and it's very hard to follow. That's why there's so many different interpretations of it. And it's not known for sure who wrote it. When it comes to the "lake of fire" there's no way to compare scripture with scripture, because such a place/thing is not mentioned by any other author of scripture.

well the author is John. Traditionally the Apostle, though I guess if you want to doubt the word of God you can start by doubting authorship I suppose.

as to the lake of fire language it's not an invention of Revelation specifically.
Jesus used the imagery of fire in the gospels, such as the oft cited in this thread sheep and goat's judgement, and the "worm dieth not and the flame is never quenched" verses.. but also the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 "I am tormented in this flame" though that's a parable and if anything is about an intermmediate state.. and Matthew 13's two parables where the unrighteous are cast into a furnace. It is parables, but the imagery of eternal torture is there.

Some of that imagery is also in Isaiah

Isaiah 33

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

and this should sound familiar
Isaiah 66

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

anyway, the reason hell is perceived that way is because scripture refers to it that way.
Whether it is literal eternal fire or just colorful language the intent is clear: it is a place of eternal suffering.

 

[ozso]

well the author is John. Traditionally the Apostle, though I guess if you want to doubt the word of God you can start by doubting authorship I suppose.

If you're going to play the game of putting me in the role of someone who "doubts the word of God" or is "calling God a liar", and similar purposely false accusations, because I don't agree with your interpretations, then we are done talking.

 

[ozso]

Often in these threads we get someone who was taught a certain way to interpret the Bible according to their particular Protestant denomination, and also taught that any interpretation contrary to their indoctrination is a lie.

 

[ozso]

How is that NOT all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what, even after death?

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my understanding of Christian UR, it is not saved no matter what. If that's your understanding of it, then I'd say you have misunderstood. It's been pretty clear to me that Christian unversalists have always said there's only one way to salvation through Christ. It's never been about how someone comes to salvation that differs from orthodox teaching, it's a matter of when they come to salvation.

 

[ozso]

Okay, so, what about those who do not believe on Christ.
What happens to them?
How is it "universalism" if it has a condition attached to it?

There's no reason why Christian universalism should be unconditional. The condition is always going to be belief and faith in Christ. The difference is the belief in when that's going to take place for everyone.

They believe everyone will have the opportunity and eventually accept Jesus as Lord. Whereas your school of belief is, if a child gets killed before he accepted Christ, he'll be roasting in agony for eternity.