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Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

Hmm

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That was your answer to this by @Jamdoc "Jesus didn't say "believe in me, or don't, you'll still get to heaven". Does not UR claim that ALL mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what, even after death? A yes or no answer will suffice.

I'll answer in my words if you don't mind.

Christian universalism is Christocentric, as has been explained to you many times, and we can only be saved by acknowledging Christ as Lord.
 
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Der Alte

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I'll answer in my words if you don't mind.
Christian universalism is Christocentric, as has been explained to you many times, and we can only be saved by acknowledging Christ as Lord
.
I asked a question that requires a yes or no answer. Anything other than that I will consider evasion and deflection. But I might be interested in what hoops you will jump through trying to not answer my question.
 
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Hmm

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I asked a question that requires a yes or no answer. Anything other than that I will consider evasion and deflection. But I might be interested in what hoops you will jump through trying to not answer my question.

You consider a one sentence answer as evasion and deflection?

You may answer "Yes", "No" or "Don't Know" or with a wall of text.
 
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ozso

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Does not UR claim that ALL mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what, even after death? A yes or no answer will suffice.

No.
 
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Jamdoc

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Sounds like a playground bully.
He can do as he pleases, because there is no way we can stop him.
Why do you think he wants to make us miserable?

Answer if you care to.
You have already gone above and beyond expectations in addressing my questions. If you are done with me, I understand. No worries.

Because it's about Him, not us.
That's why.

Let's look at John 11, the story of Lazarus

1 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.

So let's break that down. Jesus loved Lazarus, but instead of going to help him when he was sick, and Jesus had the power to do so, He healed many who were sick, Jesus procrastinated.
Jesus let Lazarus die.
He loved Lazarus, but let him die.
Lazarus even means "God will help" But here, at least on the surface, God refused to help.

Why? Because resurrecting someone from the dead, brings more glory to God, than healing someone who is sick.

Now jumping down a bit, Jesus has now told his disciples that Lazarus was dead and was going to see him.

32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.
34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

So we see, that yes, Jesus let Lazarus die, and said no to helping him while he was still alive. But it was not something that He enjoyed having to do. This was not light or frivolous, it was to greater establish that He is the Son of God and He is the resurrection and the life.

So God is neither a genie in a bottle giving us everything we wish
Nor is God a playground bully, He actually does care, even if He causes us to suffer for a season.

He does what is greatest for His own glory, but at the same time... I have to believe that He will make it worth it for us as well, because He does care.

I just wish the bible was less fuzzy on that part.

Because if your only promise is to see the person who refused to help you when you needed it.... that's not much of a reward.

I don't know how, because the bible is fuzzy on it, but I believe God would make it up to Lazarus in a way to have made his suffering and perhaps two deaths (unless he was raptured to not die the second time, the bible doesn't mention it) worth it.... and more so than just, seeing the God that let you die perhaps twice.
 
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Jamdoc

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I'm my opinion the first and foremost tenet is that it's not about us and what we want or get or deserve etc.

It's all and only about what God wants, gets and deserves.

I dislike to believe many other Christian's version of heaven, because what it is, is actually 2 hells. One has less fire maybe, but still you're just supposed to suffer doing something that maybe you hate forever and ever, which isn't a lot better.
Annihilationism would be preferable to that.
 
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Hmm

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Isn't Universalism everyone gets saved so everyone goes to heaven eventually?

Yes but it's not a mindless.conveyer belt of salvation. People have to be saved in just the same way that they have to be in any of the mainstream Christian denominations. The only difference in Universalism is that salvation can be achieved in the next life and it posits that everyone will be saved because deep down it's what everyone wants and God will help them realise this because it's what He wants too.

There are a lot of strawman arguments thrown around about universalism because it's simple message is really hated by some people. There are lots of reasons for this, mainly psychological, but that's a different topic. But if you want to understand.universalism you unfortunately need to be aware of these strawmen so that they can dismissed. I expect some will be posted again in response to this lol. I hope so anyway because it highlights the lack of any solid arguements.
 
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Jamdoc

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Yes but it's not a mindless.conveyer belt of salvation. People have to be saved in just the same way that they have to be in any of the mainstream Christian denominations. The only difference in Universalism is that salvation can be achieved in the next life and it posits that everyone will be saved because deep down it's what everyone wants and God will help them realise this because it's what He wants too.

There are a lot of strawman arguments thrown around about universalism because it's simple message is really hated by some people. There are lots of reasons for this, mainly psychological, but that's a different topic. But if you want to understand.universalism you unfortunately need to be aware of these strawmen so that they can dismissed. I expect some will be posted again in response to this lol. I hope so anyway because it highlights the lack of any solid arguements.

Hebrews 9:27 doesn't really allow for that.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Okay, so, what about those who do not believe on Christ.
What happens to them?
How is it "universalism" if it has a condition attached to it?
Ultimate Reconciliation means that those who are damned stay in the lake of fire until the sin is purified from them. It takes so long, that their personality is completely erased. The purified soul that God originally breathed out .. is then returned to Him. Souls saved in this manner are like blank slates.
 
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Jamdoc

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Care to explain why not? And perhaps quote the verse so that we can easily see what you saying.

sorry, mousing over a quoted verse will show you the verse, but it's

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I added the verse following to also demonstrate that at His second coming things are kind of settled. It's not He'll appear multiple times unto salvation even after you die.

But just you die... and then you're judged.. and that judgement settles your eternity.

Revelation 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes but it's not a mindless.conveyer belt of salvation. People have to be saved in just the same way that they have to be in any of the mainstream Christian denominations. The only difference in Universalism is that salvation can be achieved in the next life and it posits that everyone will be saved because deep down it's what everyone wants and God will help them realise this because it's what He wants too.
* * *
How is that NOT all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what, even after death?
 
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Hmm

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sorry, mousing over a quoted verse will show you the verse, but it's



I added the verse following to also demonstrate that at His second coming things are kind of settled. It's not He'll appear multiple times unto salvation even after you die.

But just you die... and then you're judged.. and that judgement settles your eternity.

Revelation 20

Do you think judgement always has to mean eternal torment? I see no mention of that in these verses, which is why I asked you to quote them, for people at least. The parts you bolded don't seem relevant to your claim.
 
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Hmm

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How is that NOT all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what, even after death?

Read what I said again. Or don't. I am tired of explaining it to you.
 
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Jamdoc

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Ultimate Reconciliation means that those who are damned stay in the lake of fire until the sin is purified from them. It takes so long, that their personality is completely erased. The purified soul that God originally breathed out .. is then returned to Him. Souls saved in this manner are like blank slates.

simply "souls" already tells me that they have an unbiblical view on eternity that poses problems from the getgo
Because the promise is a physical resurrection, and a new earth.
 
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Der Alte

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I'll answer in my words if you don't mind.
Christian universalism is Christocentric, as has been explained to you many times, and we can only be saved by acknowledging Christ as Lord
.
And you believe that the unrighteous dead will be resurrected and without any further ado they will acknowledge Christ as Lord? I know there is absolutely no scripture to support that.
But I have scripture, where Jesus is speaking, and He says at the judgement that many will go away into "eternal punishment."
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 +/- years ago. Who better than the team of; native Greek speaking scholars, who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[1]
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1. Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[2]
Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect.


 
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Jamdoc

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Do you think judgement always has to mean eternal torment? I see no mention of that in these verses, which is why I asked you to quote them, for people at least. The parts you bolded don't seem relevant to your claim.

It's relevant to show that there is an eternal consequence at the judgement. Not you get judged... and then get saved later anyway.

God has wrath against sin, He takes that wrath out in judgement.
The only way out of that wrath, is for that wrath to have been taken out on Christ in your place.
If you say you don't need Christ, God says "fine, then I will hold YOU accountable"

Psalm 32
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

You're blessed not because of what you did or didn't do, but because God has made a way to not hold you accountable personally for your sins and iniquities.
But if you declare that you will stand on your own deeds... God will show how far short you fall from perfection, and hold you personally accountable for every sin.
Nothing in scripture says that once that judgement has been passed on you, that it will be undone and put on Jesus.
 
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Hmm

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It's relevant to show that there is an eternal consequence at the judgement. Not you get judged... and then get saved later anyway.

God has wrath against sin, He takes that wrath out in judgement.
The only way out of that wrath, is for that wrath to have been taken out on Christ in your place.
If you say you don't need Christ, God says "fine, then I will hold YOU accountable"

Psalm 32


You're blessed not because of what you did or didn't do, but because God has made a way to not hold you accountable personally for your sins and iniquities.
But if you declare that you will stand on your own deeds... God will show how far short you fall from perfection, and hold you personally accountable for every sin.
Nothing in scripture says that once that judgement has been passed on you, that it will be undone and put on Jesus.

I've asked you to show me where scripture talks about eternal torment, which was your claim. If you can't, you can't.
 
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