Why is religious faith in decline?

[Radagast]

What explains the trend of decreased religious belief and practice in the U.S.?

It's more informative to look at this. There is a lot of movement. Catholics and Mainline groups are in net decline, Evangelicals are not.

 

[Caliban]

It's more informative to look at this. There is a lot of movement. Catholics and Mainline groups are in net decline, Evangelicals are not.

It's more informative to look at this. There is a lot of movement. Catholics and Mainline groups are in net decline, Evangelicals are not.

This graph demonstrates precisely what conservative theologians have been saying for over 100 years; if you loose inherency, you loose the whole thing.

Fundamentalists are the one religious demographic experiencing growth, not just within Christianity, but in other religions too.

 

[Caliban]

You can see it if you look. It doesn't have an official name that I know of. You can tell who the adherents are because they all have true-believer syndrome and are just rabid for their cause.

Every religious tradition has people fitting this description.

 

[crossnote]

I asked why you think they are leaving the faith. You replied with a list of what you think the trust in. Maybe elaborate on why you think they left the church.

Again, the reason they are leaving the faith is because their faith has been in dead things as I stated...(religion, politics, military, socialism, capitalism etc.) ...it makes for a dead Church.
When a person encounters the living God through the new birth, one (when tempted to leave) can only state along with Peter...
“Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
(Jn 6:68-69)

 

[Caliban]

Again, the reason they are leaving the faith is because their faith has been in dead things as I stated...(religion, politics, military, socialism, capitalism etc.) ...it makes for a dead Church.
When a person encounters the living God through the new birth, one (when tempted to leave) can only state along with Peter...
“Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
(Jn 6:68-69)

I am not sure it is fair to say people have "faith" in things like the military or capitalism. I was in the military, I never had anything like religious faith in it. I am also a capitalist; I don't have faith in it--its just how I engage in economic transactions. I don't see a connection between the things you listed and their having explanatory power for why people actually shed their theistic belief.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Why do you think people are leaving the faith?

Many are not filled with the Holy Spirit. Their trust is in man and not in God through His Son Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The power is in the Comforter within us. This is the only way we enter and remain in The Kingdom of God.
Be blessed

 

[crossnote]

I am not sure it is fair to say people have "faith" in things like the military or capitalism. I was in the military, I never had anything like religious faith in it. I am also a capitalist; I don't have faith in it--its just how I engage in economic transactions. I don't see a connection between the things you listed and their having explanatory power for why people actually shed their theistic belief.

Do you know what an idol is? Do you realize people put more trust, devote more time to their idols than to God?
Those were only a few examples of what people pin their hopes on. The list is by no means exhaustive. Neither do all on the list apply to all people, so taking one or two from a list of samples and say 'those don't apply to me, therefore, it is invalid as a reason why people leave the faith,' is not a fair conclusion. You know as well as I, the reasons are many, but it all boils down to UNBELIEF.
I didn't realize you were looking for a debate in this section "Exploring Christianity", otherwise, I would have crafted my first response accordingly.

 

[Radagast]

I was in the military, I never had anything like religious faith in it.

It's related; you have to "believe in" the ethos of the military, at least to some extent, in order to stay in it.

 

[Caliban]

Do you know what an idol is? Do you realize people put more trust, devote more time to their idols than to God?
Those were only a few examples of what people pin their hopes on. The list is by no means exhaustive. Neither do all on the list apply to all people, so taking one or two from a list of samples and say 'those don't apply to me, therefore, it is invalid as a reason why people leave the faith,' is not a fair conclusion. You know as well as I, the reasons are many, but it all boils down to UNBELIEF.
I didn't realize you were looking for a debate in this section "Exploring Christianity", otherwise, I would have crafted my first response accordingly.

I am not looking for a debate, just discussion. I appreciate the exchange of ideas between people from different perspectives; I think that is healthy. I may disagree with you or another person, but that does not mean we should begrudgingly react negatively to each others's ideas. I consider the category of Exploring Christianity to be a place where these types of discussions are welcomed. When I think my ideas reflected the truth, I do not feel attacked when another asked questions and pushed back a bit. It's okay to have a conversation about ideas we find important and come to different conclusions.

 

[Caliban]

It's related; you have to "believe in" the ethos of the military, at least to some extent, in order to stay in it.

I can tell you with confidence that is not true--not unless you are willing to be discharged as other than honorable. You cant't just quit when you want. The military is full of people who are just serving their time because they fell like they made a mistake enlisting. But I think the point was that military service could be analogous to worship. Maybe, I just think that would be a stretch.

 

[Caliban]

Do you know what an idol is? Do you realize people put more trust, devote more time to their idols than to God?
Those were only a few examples of what people pin their hopes on. The list is by no means exhaustive. Neither do all on the list apply to all people, so taking one or two from a list of samples and say 'those don't apply to me, therefore, it is invalid as a reason why people leave the faith,' is not a fair conclusion. You know as well as I, the reasons are many, but it all boils down to UNBELIEF.
I didn't realize you were looking for a debate in this section "Exploring Christianity", otherwise, I would have crafted my first response accordingly.

I think modern Christian ideas of what an idol is differs greatly from how religious texts from the Ancient Near East conceived them. The description as American Football as an idol, for example, would not reflect the Hebraic conception of idolatry during the third or fourth centuries BCE--nor the first and second centuries when the Christian New Testament was written. It seems to be a huge semantic leap to compare the two versions of idol worship as if they were the same thing.

 

[agapelove]

I hope this works! Thank you--you are awesome.

You're welcome.

I agree. I respect those who are not afraid of saying they acknowledge their belief is based on faith instead of trying to shape the narrative as having rock solid evidence. Good for you! That's not to say there is NO evidence, I personally just don't think its compelling.

At the end of the day religion is a faith not a subject matter but I appreciate the branch of apologetics. The world will have its Doubting Thomas's. The grace in the story though is that even for skeptics, God finds a way to reveal Himself.

What is not compelling enough for you? Are you looking for a personal revelation with God or more in the sense of historical/scientific evidence?

 

[Radagast]

I can tell you with confidence that is not true--not unless you are willing to be discharged as other than honorable. You cant't just quit when you want.

I see your point. But you can "quit" mentally, and then just put in time till you can do so physically.

But I agree, military service is not analogous to worship.

 

[Radagast]

The description as American Football as an idol, for example, would not reflect the Hebraic conception of idolatry during the third or fourth centuries BCE--nor the first and second centuries when the Christian New Testament was written.

When Colossians 3:5 says "covetousness, which is idolatry," a fairly broad view of idolatry is indicated.

 

[Caliban]

You're welcome.



At the end of the day religion is a faith not a subject matter but I appreciate the branch of apologetics. The world will have its Doubting Thomas's. The grace in the story though is that even for skeptics, God finds a way to reveal Himself.

What is not compelling enough for you? Are you looking for a personal revelation with God or more in the sense of historical/scientific evidence?

I think I am pretty familiar with the arguments people give for why they believe in God or the authority of the Bible, I simply don't find these ideas very good. Because I studied theology and the Bible for years, I like to stay engaged with the discussion and developments within the faith and near it. I would not consider myself a seeker of religious ideas, but of knowledge and education generally.

It would take a significant event (an actual miracle) or a seriously compelling piece of evidence to convince me something supernatural exists.

 

[Caliban]

When Colossians 3:5 says "covetousness, which is idolatry," a fairly broad view of idolatry is indicated.

That's a good point. If covetousness is idolatry, I am guilty. It sounds almost Buddhist to completely deny desire. It seems the entire American and world economy is centered on breaking the tenth commandment.

 

[Radagast]

It sounds almost Buddhist to completely deny desire.

Christians don't say we should "completely deny desire."

What we do say is (1) that we should not desire things that are inherently wrong (e.g. sex with other people's wives/husbands) and (2) that we should not desire good things more than we desire God (because that would be idolatry) or out of proportion to other things.

To put it another way, books are a good thing. It's good to desire books. But the man who buys so many books that he can't feed his kids is sinning, because his disproportionate desire for books is compromising other things that are more important.

That's a good point. If covetousness is idolatry, I am guilty.

From a Christian point of view, of course you are guilty. You are putting pretty much everything ahead of God.

 

[Caliban]

Christians don't say we should "completely deny desire."

What we do say is (1) that we should not desire things that are inherently wrong (e.g. sex with other people's wives/husbands) and (2) that we should not desire good things more than we desire God (because that would be idolatry) or out of proportion to other things.

To put it another way, books are a good thing. It's good to desire books. But the man who buys so many books that he can't feed his kids is sinning, because his disproportionate desire for books is compromising other things that are more important.



From a Christian point of view, of course you are guilty. You are putting pretty much everything ahead of God.

It also says to not covet your neighbors donkey, Ox,... or anything that is your neighbors (Exodus 20:17). This seems to broaden the scope to most material goods and aspirations. It is clearly best to avoid inordinate desire, but the prohibition in the tenth commandment read differently than they way most modern Christians envision it. The story does come from a context of rather strict austerity in the desert.

 

[Radagast]

It also says to not covet your neighbors donkey, Ox,... or anything that is your neighbors (Exodus 20:17). This seems to broaden the scope to most material goods and aspirations.

It's one thing to say "I wish I had a donkey." Christians are encouraged to pray for that.

It's quite another thing to say "I wish I had Caliban's donkey." For one thing, that twists me up inside, to the detriment of my soul. Every time I see it, I say to myself "So-and-so's got a donkey. It's not fair!" Eventually, that line of thinking leads to me meeting you in a dark alleyway with a knife.

Equally, "Please, God, send me a wife" is fine. 2 Samuel 11 tells the story of what happens when you start to think "I wish I had his wife." It's not pretty.

the prohibition in the tenth commandment read differently than they way most modern Christians envision it

With respect, I don't think you understand the passage as well as you think you do.

 

[ColoRaydo]

Does the reverse hold true? If God reversed the fortunes of most believers would they bolt?

That’s a very good question! Some would. Some wouldn’t.

In my case, a complete reversal of fortune changed me from a casual believer into a new relationship with Christ I had never had. My personal belief is that God used that circumstance to make me see that trusting HIM was the most important thing in my life.