charsan

Charismatic Episcopal Church
Jul 12, 2019
2,297
2,115
52
South California
✟62,421.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What explains the trend of decreased religious belief and practice in the U.S.?

I believe ,and this is just my opinion, that it is by and large evangelicalism where easy believism resides. If they had not left Traditional Christianity there would not be the decline, evangelicalism just does not give people what they need
 
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

:sighing:
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,400
8,807
55
USA
✟693,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ya, sorry for being vague. You mentioned humility and also the scattering of people and language in the Babel narrative from Genesis. I am interested in how you think those two things are connected and how they relate to the current decline in relies belief today.

I was using the story as more a generalization of people as a whole, but the example of hubris is that instead of accepting God's plan of salvation for their entrance to heaven, they were going to do it via the work of their hands, which would, in their estimation, give them everything they wanted in life (a name for themselves, i.e. becoming great, and not scattered)

When working their own way to heaven they missed the very first command: to worship Him and give Him the Glory in all things.

It's what is missing in every single sacrifice in the Bible that was rejected by God. What was accepted was giving back to God the best portion of what He created - giving him all praise and Glory for the work of His Hand, and the rejected offering was out of the work the man did, desiring praise for it; that well done pat on the back.

One is worship of God, acknowledging all things come from His Hand and giving the best of the gifts of God back to him in praise and worship, while the other is asking God to acknowledge the work of mans hand.

The Bible tells us that when we acknowledge God in all our ways, our efforts will be rewarded. But when we stop acknowledging God, our efforts will fail.

That may not look very rewarding at first glance, Abraham never entered the promised land in this life and Lot barely escaped with his life and his children... but the end result is always beautiful, in time.. in time. Abrahams descendants, for instance, did possess the promised land and Abraham's spiritual descendants will inherit all (and so forth)

Generally, pride is a main cause of man to stop acknowledging God. There are three sins from which all other sin is born. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life...

Desire, desire and pride. Nimrod's people fell on all three counts I'm sure, (desired heaven, desired a name for themselves) but their pride was to me most apparent or the largest stumbling stone. They felt they had no need of God to attain to all their desires.

I see a lot of that "no need of God" around us today. Modern technology, philosophy, medicine, and more, is making mankind feel less and less need for anything of God, because they feel they can attain all they want or need without Him, in fact, they have decided even the thought of God a thing of ignorance. Definite pride of life in that, when we compare the thought processes to scripture.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

:sighing:
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,400
8,807
55
USA
✟693,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I believe ,and this is just my opinion, that it is by and large evangelicalism where easy believism resides. If they had not left Traditional Christianity there would not be the decline, evangelicalism just does not give people what they need

Such a perfect time to answer this too, but SOOO off topic if I do... lol.

Some day you and I should discuss though. :)
 
Upvote 0

crossnote

Berean
Site Supporter
May 16, 2010
2,903
1,593
So. Cal.
✟250,751.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I am interested in how religious people interpret the data. I have yet to hear anyone on this forum cite the actual reasons people give themselves for leaving the faith. That would seem more reasonable to me. I want to understand the perspectives of others who do not always think the way I do.
Yes, there are 'religious' people like Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoist, and even some Christians. Then there are some who have been born again, who have experienced a radical transformation from indifference to God, even hating and avoiding God, in such a way that they could never dream of leaving the faith because it is as real as that keyboard in front of you that you are typing on.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,567
13,728
✟430,256.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I believe ,and this is just my opinion, that it is by and large evangelicalism where easy believism resides. If they had not left Traditional Christianity there would not be the decline, evangelicalism just does not give people what they need

I don't know if I can agree with the last sentence, because I don't think everyone in the same religion is necessarily after the same thing in their religious practice (so "what they need" might be different between Orthodox, Catholics, Evangelicals, etc., even if they would -- and really should -- all answer something about salvation in Christ being the ultimate goal of the Christian life), but other than that, this is spot on.

Traditional Christianity gives a person a lot more to do, for lack of a better way to put it. Some people might interpret this as "works salvation", but that's not really what I mean. It's more like how my mother (who was a devoted but mostly omni-denominational Protestant for all of her life; one of those hippies who got 'high on Jesus' in the 1960s as a real rebellion, since her own mother and father were never religious :D) had her Bible with her until the day she died, and when I took possession of it and got to look at it myself, I noticed that it was full of underlining, highlighting, notes in the margins, etc. -- all these scribbles I'd never put in a Bible. I don't find it appropriate to write in a Bible at all. But I thought about it, in the process of becoming Orthodox 10-11 years ago, and I realized something: All of these notes and highlights and everything were her means of interacting with the text and the stories and the faith more generally. Since everything she encountered was drawn from the Bible text itself, there were some notes that were just "???" or "Aha!", or a circled word with no explanation -- like she was puzzling things out for herself as best as she could, but didn't have the moderating/guiding influence of a traditional Christian Church that would situate the Bible text and messages in a context that would make sense relative to what else the people in the Church were doing (things like why we pray, why we fast, why we chant instead of talking, why we don't have extemporaneous sermons on whatever the priest feels like talking about, etc). Because there wasn't really that same relationship of the Bible to the Church and to liturgical worship as there is in the Orthodox and Catholic and what remains of the more traditional Protestant churches.

So without making any claims about what life is like in churches that I don't belong to, I can say from just this one example that it makes sense to me why people would leave faith in situations like this (though my mother herself never did, she also died before the internet was everywhere and people like Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins were household names, so I have no way of knowing how she would've reacted to the world as it is today). There's not a lot keeping them there to begin with, and when the Bible and the Bible alone is everything, it is much easier to poke holes in their beliefs by making them doubt that the Bible is what they think it is (whether that's a matter of inerrancy, or presuming that we have autographs of the Gospels, or presuming that the Bible is a scientific manual, or whatever the specific belief is).
 
Upvote 0

Caliban

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2018
2,575
1,142
California
✟46,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Married
I believe ,and this is just my opinion, that it is by and large evangelicalism where easy believism resides. If they had not left Traditional Christianity there would not be the decline, evangelicalism just does not give people what they need
What is traditional Christianity? Are you referring to the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, or a tradition or Protestantism?
 
Upvote 0

Caliban

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2018
2,575
1,142
California
✟46,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Married
I was using the story as more a generalization of people as a whole, but the example of hubris is that instead of accepting God's plan of salvation for their entrance to heaven, they were going to do it via the work of their hands, which would, in their estimation, give them everything they wanted in life (a name for themselves, i.e. becoming great, and not scattered)

When working their own way to heaven they missed the very first command: to worship Him and give Him the Glory in all things.

It's what is missing in every single sacrifice in the Bible that was rejected by God. What was accepted was giving back to God the best portion of what He created - giving him all praise and Glory for the work of His Hand, and the rejected offering was out of the work the man did, desiring praise for it; that well done pat on the back.

One is worship of God, acknowledging all things come from His Hand and giving the best of the gifts of God back to him in praise and worship, while the other is asking God to acknowledge the work of mans hand.

The Bible tells us that when we acknowledge God in all our ways, our efforts will be rewarded. But when we stop acknowledging God, our efforts will fail.

That may not look very rewarding at first glance, Abraham never entered the promised land in this life and Lot barely escaped with his life and his children... but the end result is always beautiful, in time.. in time. Abrahams descendants, for instance, did possess the promised land and Abraham's spiritual descendants will inherit all (and so forth)

Generally, pride is a main cause of man to stop acknowledging God. There are three sins from which all other sin is born. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life...

Desire, desire and pride. Nimrod's people fell on all three counts I'm sure, (desired heaven, desired a name for themselves) but their pride was to me most apparent or the largest stumbling stone. They felt they had no need of God to attain to all their desires.

I see a lot of that "no need of God" around us today. Modern technology, philosophy, medicine, and more, is making mankind feel less and less need for anything of God, because they feel they can attain all they want or need without Him, in fact, they have decided even the thought of God a thing of ignorance. Definite pride of life in that, when we compare the thought processes to scripture.

If technology and scientific inquiry is pulling away from God, do you think people should reject those things?
 
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

:sighing:
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,400
8,807
55
USA
✟693,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If technology and scientific inquiry is pulling away from God, do you think people should reject those things?

Of course not. Scientific and technological advancements are wonderful for humanity. I do think people should recognize their need for God even still though. We are capable of so much only because of God, as we are His creation made in His image, so of course our potential is great, but it's not because we are great, it's because God is. I think our praise should always be for Him, it just goes to acknowledging God in all our ways. Proverbs 3:5-8
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

charsan

Charismatic Episcopal Church
Jul 12, 2019
2,297
2,115
52
South California
✟62,421.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What is traditional Christianity? Are you referring to the Roman Church, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, or a tradition or Protestantism?

Those Churches qualify as Traditional Christianity as well as High Church Anglican, Lutheran, and any that use the Ancient Liturgies like mine (Charismatic Episcopal Church) and others like the Reformed Episcopal Church. Hope that answers you question :)
 
Upvote 0

charsan

Charismatic Episcopal Church
Jul 12, 2019
2,297
2,115
52
South California
✟62,421.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't know if I can agree with the last sentence, because I don't think everyone in the same religion is necessarily after the same thing in their religious practice (so "what they need" might be different between Orthodox, Catholics, Evangelicals, etc., even if they would -- and really should -- all answer something about salvation in Christ being the ultimate goal of the Christian life), but other than that, this is spot on.

Maybe but I came out of evangelicalism and even though it was a long ago I am still very biased against that system. To me I had to do so much more work in evangelicalism than in Traditional Christianity, it was a breath of fresh air
 
  • Like
Reactions: dzheremi
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bobber

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2004
6,607
3,096
✟217,088.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I don't see how that explains why people are leaving religious institutions and citing non-belief as a reason. How does something written in the Bible explain what is occurring in the 21st Century?

Let's put it this way. If one truly KNOWS Jesus and has fellowship with him one cannot just leave him without a lot of conviction and leaving peace for the rest of one's life. (except they repent) And I'm talking about leaving a religious institution not leaving Jesus....they can be two different things. If one has been enlightened and have tasted of the powers of the heavenly kingdom Heb 6: 5 they can never ever forget it. It doesn't matter how many times people might say you're crazy you KNOW what you KNOW.

Leaving religious institutions can mean nothing as it pertains to whether one is still in relationship with Jesus or God. And if there's some who left religious institutions that never even had a REAL relationship in the Spirit with God they weren't any better off in their religious institution anyway if it only represented a form of godliness but having no power . 2 Tim 3:5
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If they had not left Traditional Christianity there would not be the decline, evangelicalism just does not give people what they need

Yet, when we look at the numbers, it is what you call the "traditional" churches that are in greatest decline.

RelgiousSwithching2014-2.png
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,149,208.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
If we look at regular attendance at religious services in the US, it doesn't actually actually seem to have changed much. Apart from a bit of a postwar spike, it's been consistently around 40%:

ssmrnnozskgngstz2qohsq.png
I know that’s how people answer, but traffic levels Sunday morning aren’t consistent with anything near those numbers.
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I know that’s how people answer, but traffic levels Sunday morning aren’t consistent with anything near those numbers.

I would expect there to be an exaggeration, but (1) I would expect that to be less than you think, because you're in a more secular state; and (2) I would expect that to be consistent over time.
 
Upvote 0

bèlla

❤️
Site Supporter
Jan 16, 2019
20,539
17,698
USA
✟953,431.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
I know that’s how people answer, but traffic levels Sunday morning aren’t consistent with anything near those numbers.

I agree and I live in a major city with several churches in walking distance. I think Barna’s list is more accurate.

Churchless Cities

~Bella
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,567
13,728
✟430,256.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I agree and I live in a major city with several churches in walking distance. I think Barna’s list is more accurate.

Churchless Cities

~Bella

Hmm. Interesting list. I currently live in #19, but I was baptized into Orthodoxy in #9, so y'know...take that, Barna! :ebil:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums