Why is religious faith in decline?

Caliban · May 14, 2020

ColoRaydo said:
According to the Pew Research Center, Christianity (and Islam) is actually growing. Christianity is growing in Africa and Asia and Islam is growing especially fast in Europe. The world is actually getting more religious, not less, but provincial westerners aren’t counting those numbers outside the US and Europe.

While church membership and attendance in American liberal Protestant denominations has shrunk considerably, many more Americans are attending non denominational churches and small groups. Additionally, due to societies’ lack of stigma now, many who identified as Christian because of tradition or due to family pressure no longer feel pressured to do so.

The number of Americans (and Western Europeans) claiming to be Atheist/Agnostic/None has grown. However, think about this for a second. If you were to reach your hand into a bag of atheists, chances are extremely high that you will pull out a western, white, educated, affluent male. In other words, someone who’s already on top of humanity’s heap. In general, they don’t “need” God. They’ll never go hungry, they’ll never have young siblings die, they’ll never get bitten by a snake while harvesting tea leaves. They’ll never know the hardships most of the world knows. It really shouldn’t be a surprise.

I agree that Islam is growing in some countries. But, those are places where education is almost nonexistent and where fear promotes conformity. Hardly an example of compelling theistic rationality.

My focus with this thread is in the U.S. because we are able, as you say, to have your basic needs met and more--Maslow comes to mind. This actually puts us in a good position to analyze our presuppositions and not accept the assumptions of those in the past who lived hand to mouth and did not have the time to consider philosophy, poetry, and such things--John Adams come to mind.

The absence of fear is the best soil for critical thinking. Western educated nations have the time to develop technology, expand the arts, and reconsider our theistic hagiography.

Caliban · May 14, 2020

Andrew98 said:
On its already existing machinery.

What does that mean--I'm not making the inference.

XAPLTOS · May 14, 2020

Caliban said:
Why do you think everyone worships something?

because everyone gives there time and passion to something, sports, politics, money. People are created to worship, they’re created to worship Jesus. If one chooses not to the very makeup of the person will cause them to worship something. You see it all the time, all you have to do is observe them or speak with them, everyone has something they are worshiping.

pantingdeer · May 14, 2020

Caliban said:
What does that mean--I'm not making the inference.

It’s running now that it’s been made is what I was saying.

Caliban · May 14, 2020

jacks said:
My guess is you're not looking for a Biblical answer, but here one goes anyway.

2 Timothy 3:1-6
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."

If I lack belief, do you think that list applies to me?

jacks · May 14, 2020

Caliban said:
If I lack belief, do you think that list applies to me?

You'd know if it does better than me. (I'd like to think not.) However, one can be all of those things without belief.

Caliban · May 14, 2020

XAPLTOS said:
because everyone gives there time and passion to something, sports, politics, money. People are created to worship, they’re created to worship Jesus. If one chooses not to the very makeup of the person will cause them to worship something. You see it all the time, all you have to do is observe them or speak with them, everyone has something they are worshiping.

The problem with that is that anything could be defined as worship. So my favorite hobby can be worship. If the Bible says we should worship god, is it okay if my worship of God is done with the same enthusiasm of an afternoon motorcycle ride?

I have heard this from pastors before--it's common to say we all worship. But I don't think it fits. I definitely do not worship anything. I have things I enjoy--things I do, but it would be silly to say I worship my motorcycle or my wine press. Wait...maybe I could worship my wine press. I make a good Cabernet.

Caliban · May 14, 2020

jacks said:
You'd know if it does better than me. (I'd like to think not.) However, one can be all of those things without belief.

the Bible was written at a time where it was almost impossible for someone to be an atheist. Of course they thought it was horrible. It's not horrible.

Caliban · May 14, 2020

Andrew98 said:
It’s running now that it’s been made is what I was saying.

Okay cool--thanks. I just don't see why the physical world--where we can study, measure, and investigate--is evidence for anything supernatural.

Caliban · May 14, 2020

Andrew98 said:
I would say a lot of people are very uneducated about Christianity. A lot of people seem to think it’s all “pie in the sky” nonsense with no good reason to believe.
I think there’s every reason to believe. No book can prophecy the future like the Bible can. I think a lot of people aren’t aware that people wrote precise details about the Messiah and his life hundreds of years before he even existed. Also I would say many secular people are unaware that the apostles, eye-witnesses of Jesus, were all willing to die horrible deaths for something they saw with their very own eyes. Surely they must have all seen Jesus risen from the dead or else one would have bound to crack and renounce their faith in Jesus. But no, none of them did.

A great many people leaving churches say they are leaving because they no longer believe the claims or the evidence provided for those claims. Most know a lot about the Bible and the faith.

dqhall · May 14, 2020

Caliban said:
You had me agreeing right up to the point of lost sinners. Do you mean that in the theological understanding of being apart from god and in need of salvation from hell?

I mean like took a wrong turn and got lost (before GPS), or does not know best use of time, fails to listen, spends too much time watching TV, obesity any one of thousands of errors. I recall a verse: “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

XAPLTOS · May 14, 2020

Caliban said:
The problem with that is that anything could be defined as worship. So my favorite hobby can be worship. If the Bible says we should worship god, is it okay if my worship of God is done with the same enthusiasm of an afternoon motorcycle ride?

I have heard this from pastors before--it's common to say we all worship. But I don't think it fits. I definitely do not worship anything. I have things I enjoy--things I do, but it would be silly to say I worship my motorcycle or my wine press. Wait...maybe I could worship my wine press. I make a good Cabernet.

I understand what you are saying. I’m coming from the fact that we’re created and thus created to worship the creator. My personal experience says that I consumed drugs, alcohol, money ect... to fill myself but when I came to have an experience with a tangible Jesus that all began to go away. If someone wants to enjoy their hog or press wine with enthusiasm I can tell you God could not care less, I’m talking about where the heart is what does a person base their life on what defines a person. Some it’s sports, sex, money ect... and that definition that defines the purpose of a man is what he is worshipping. My thoughts based on my own experiences not trying to force an issue just explain my reality.

Caliban · May 14, 2020

XAPLTOS said:
I understand what you are saying. I’m coming from the fact that we’re created and thus created to worship the creator. My personal experience says that I consumed drugs, alcohol, money ect... to fill myself but when I came to have an experience with a tangible Jesus that all began to go away. If someone wants to enjoy their hog or press wine with enthusiasm I can tell you God could not care less, I’m talking about where the heart is what does a person base their life on what defines a person. Some it’s sports, sex, money ect... and that definition that defines the purpose of a man is what he is worshipping. My thoughts based on my own experiences not trying to force an issue just explain my reality.

I see your point. I used to worship the Christian God. That involved study, prayer, singing hymns in corporate and family worship. After leaving the faith, I have nothing like that anymore. Honestly, I don't miss it.

XAPLTOS · May 14, 2020

Caliban said:
I see your point. I used to worship the Christian God. That involved study, prayer, singing hymns in corporate and family worship. After leaving the faith, I have nothing like that anymore. Honestly, I don't miss it.

I understand, He’s become my greatest friend. Have a great day bro, I’ll see you around.

bèlla · May 14, 2020

Caliban said:
I see your point. I used to worship the Christian God. That involved study, prayer, singing hymns in corporate and family worship. After leaving the faith, I have nothing like that anymore. Honestly, I don't miss it.

Did you want to do those things? Or were you told to them or expected to participate?

~Bella

agapelove · May 14, 2020

Caliban said:
I will respond first by saying, I still haven't learned how to quote separate parts of a person's response. I even googled it. What am I doing wrong?

Haha. You have to end the quote by using [/quote] and then restart the quote by copy & pasting the post # and member ID, ie. [ QUOTE="Caliban, post: 74991884, member: 411523" ]

Caliban said:
Anyway, I agree that Jesus was a figure that challenged authority and power--I appreciate that a lot.

I think where I disagree a bit is with the idea that there is evidence for God. By evidence I mean, evidence that when presented leads to the singular conclusion that a god is the only answer. Of course there is the presentation of evidence for a god, but it does not rise to the level of the actual claim being made; that there is a supernatural being moving and working in the universe or somehow outside of it. That is a rather large claim. I can see why people now days are lees inclined to believe it. me included.

What evidence did you have in mind?

Well if you are looking for tangible proof that there is a supernatural being floating around in 4th/5th dimensions then you will never find it. Then again if there is evidence for a god then we cannot really call it faith, right?

Like early humans, we use the divine to explain things that could not be explained otherwise. In a conversation between a Christian and an atheist in the book Lies We Believe About God, the Christian asks the atheist "What do you believe in"?

He responds, "I believe in the way I love my children. I didn't know I had the capacity to love like this until I had my own children. I would step in front of a bullet for them or take their hurts to myself if I could."

He had just described agape love, other-centered, self giving love. He had just described God. (1 John 4:7-21) Not bad for an "unbeliever".

How can one reduce the masterpiece of creation and what it's evolved into to some giant cosmic coincidence? Why do things like love or mercy or justice or compassion or any good exist at all? Science and philosophy contend evolution but for me that's enough proof that humanity is modeled after the divine, and that everything is by design. People may walk away from faith traditions but they can never walk away from the spirituality that lives inside them.

Caliban · May 14, 2020

LaBèlla said:
Did you want to do those things? Or were you told to them or expected to participate?

~Bella

I wanted to do them. I learned the guitar so I could play in church and around the house. I learned a bunch of Caedmon's Call songs (this probably dates me) and Hillsong stuff. I loved it. I was a Deacon in a conservative church for a long time also. I just changed my mind over study and time. I still engage with Christians and appreciate their friendship.

Caliban · May 14, 2020

agapelove said:
Haha. You have to end the quote by using ...and then restart the quote by copy & pasting the post # and member ID

I hope this works! Thank you--you are awesome.

agapelove said:
if there is evidence for a god then we cannot really call it faith, right?

I agree. I respect those who are not afraid of saying they acknowledge their belief is based on faith instead of trying to shape the narrative as having rock solid evidence. Good for you! That's not to say there is NO evidence, I personally just don't think its compelling.

bèlla · May 14, 2020

Caliban said:
I wanted to do them. I learned the guitar so I could play in church and around the house. I learned a bunch of Caedmon's Call songs (this probably dates me) and Hillsong stuff. I loved it. I was a Deacon in a conservative church for a long time also. I just changed my mind over study and time. I still engage with Christians and appreciate their friendship.

That's quite a journey. I did a lot at church. But I felt at home in the synagogue. All I had to focus on was Him. Sometimes simplicity is best.

~Bella

archer75 · May 14, 2020

Andrew98 said:
What is it?

You can see it if you look. It doesn't have an official name that I know of. You can tell who the adherents are because they all have true-believer syndrome and are just rabid for their cause.

Why is religious faith in decline?

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