Why Is Jesus Called 'The Word' in John 1:1?

[ebedmelech]

My argument is that Jesus is the boss, even over Paul, Peter, John or whomever else you may choose to champion. Are you really saying that my argument if fruitless. Are you really saying Jesus MUST share his authority as the word of God with anyone else as their equals simply because God gave them the inspiration to promote his teachings?

John the baptist said "I must decrease so that he may increase" but here you are saying, "Jesus must decrease so that anyone who speaks in his name may increase".

No amount of grammatical nit picking will change the fact that Jesus is the boss, ebed. Jesus makes the rules. He is the one we must obey. If an angel from God or Paul himself preach contrary to what Jesus preached, then they must be ignored (Galations 1).

Why would Paul make such a statement if he was as sure as your are of his own personal divinity in his teachings? Obviously, Paul realized that being inspired is NOT the same thing as being infallible.

That is why Jesus is the only cornerstone and we all MUST line up with his teachings. A "cornerstone" is a tool of measurement. It was the tool used to make 90degree angles when building walls.

Jesus is referred to as the corner stone because HE is the tool we use to measure EVERYTHING else. Paul, Peter, John, James, or whomever may be inspired, but they are NOT the cornerstone. They only speak ABOUT the cornerstone.

Jesus is better than them all. He is the best; the superlative of superlatives.

But hey, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. Are you saying we cannot be saved without John, Peter, Paul or James?



You avoided my question, ebed; why is that? I asked you if "holy writ" or "scripture" includes anything OUTSIDE of what is included in the Bible. You did not answer that question. I think that speaks volumes, don't you?

OR, are you saying that "fathers" like Clement, Marcion, blah blah blah ARE included in the meaning of "holy write"? If so, WHY are they included while people like myself, who boldly proclaim the authority of Jesus over all others are not included in "holy writ"?

Are you, perhaps, promoting the "good ole boys" club? Are you building the tombs of the prophets of the past while stoning those of the present?

Haha you sound so wrapped up in your understanding of "holy grammar" that you can't see the forest through the trees.

My oh my but how you put the spirit in a box and proclaim to one and all that you've managed to capture the wind through the use of words and their "ancient meanings". lol

Jesus is the word of God. The point is obvious. Listen to him and obey him. So simple a child could understand.

I figured this kind of response would come. This is not a fruitful discussion. You be blessed.

All scripture is from God by me...I'm not to take what Jesus said above anything else said in scripture because God is not the author of confusion.

As the scripture says the church is built upon the Apostle and prophets with Jesus as the Chief Cornerstone. Jesus didn't say "listen to my words and not my Apostles". If you want to hold what Jesus said in scripture above the rest of scripture go right ahead.

Not one time did I even hint that Jesus is not LORD...that would be blasphemy. What I do say and always will say Is ALL scripture is God-breathed and no portion of scripture is to be taken over another whether Jesus said it, or Paul, or Peter...it's all from God and just as authoritative.

Lastly your tone has taken that of sarcasm and cynicism...which to me makes further debate unprofitable.

The Lord bless and keep you.

 

[candle glow]

This isn't sarcasm or cynicism, ebed. It's me challenging your doctrine with genuine arguments and questions, though I can understand that you feel attacked. That feeling almost always comes along with convenient doctrines being exposed.

Otherwise, I don't think you can present any direct quote from me showing this apparent sarcasm/cynicism. However, when I felt you'd used a cheap shot, I said so, and I used a quote from you as evidence along with an explanation as to why it was a cheap shot.

I can understand your desire to not get bogged down in arguments about who is attacking who, but then that makes me wonder why you'd bother to make the accusation in the first place (with no evidence to back it up) instead of just leaving it as "good day to you" or whatever... another cheap shot, perhaps?

Anyway, it seems you've decided to walk away. That's fine, though I'd still like to challenge your doctrine here as it could be helpful for anyone else looking on.

All scripture is from God by me...I'm not to take what Jesus said above anything else said in scripture because God is not the author of confusion.

You've got it backward. Confusion most definitely comes when you say every stone in the building is equal to the cornerstone, because then you get people pushing and pulling stones according to other stones around them which are NOT the cornerstone. The purpose of the cornerstone becomes useless.

You end up with a wonky building that does NOT line up with the cornerstone. Jesus referred to it as the builders rejecting the chief cornerstone (i.e. in preference to some other stone).

Usually, when people try to relegate Jesus' authority with any other authority out there, it's because they are nervous about what it is that Jesus has told us to do. He makes some fairly serious demands of his followers, especially in the areas of materialism, money, and greed in general.

The "Jesus is equal to every other writer in the Bible" doctrine then allows people to point to King David or Solomon and say "see, those guys had lots of money blah blah blah and since Jesus is no better than them, we can use them to cancel out what Jesus said about forsaking all and working for love vs working for mammon".

 

[ebedmelech]

This isn't sarcasm or cynicism, ebed. It's me challenging your doctrine with genuine arguments and questions, though I can understand that you feel attacked. That feeling almost always comes along with convenient doctrines being exposed.

Otherwise, I don't think you can present any direct quote from me showing this apparent sarcasm/cynicism. However, when I felt you'd used a cheap shot, I said so, and I used a quote from you as evidence along with an explanation as to why it was a cheap shot.

I can understand your desire to not get bogged down in arguments about who is attacking who, but then that makes me wonder why you'd bother to make the accusation in the first place (with no evidence to back it up) instead of just leaving it as "good day to you" or whatever... another cheap shot, perhaps?

Anyway, it seems you've decided to walk away. That's fine, though I'd still like to challenge your doctrine here as it could be helpful for anyone else looking on.



You've got it backward. Confusion most definitely comes when you say every stone in the building is equal to the cornerstone, because then you get people pushing and pulling stones according to other stones around them which are NOT the cornerstone. The purpose of the cornerstone becomes useless.

You end up with a wonky building that does NOT line up with the cornerstone. Jesus referred to it as the builders rejecting the chief cornerstone (i.e. in preference to some other stone).

Usually, when people try to relegate Jesus' authority with any other authority out there, it's because they are nervous about what it is that Jesus has told us to do. He makes some fairly serious demands of his followers, especially in the areas of materialism, money, and greed in general.

The "Jesus is equal to every other writer in the Bible" doctrine then allows people to point to King David or Solomon and say "see, those guys had lots of money blah blah blah and since Jesus is no better than them, we can use them to cancel out what Jesus said about forsaking all and working for love vs working for mammon".

What I did was obey God's word:

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless." Titus 3:9

It's not a fruitful discussion so I'm done with it.

For the record though (and so any who read this thread know where I stand), I'll say again...when it comes to the 66 books known as the bible, EVERY bit of it is God's word. Whether Jesus said it or any other writer said it. God's word is a cohesive whole or we have problems with the whole thing because we have the prophetic books like Revelation that Jesus revealed to John. If Revelation is not as authoritative as what Jesus said then what do you do?

Then you have the OT Prophets who also tell of the end...if their words are not as authoritative as the words of Jesus can we just disregard what they said? They gave prophetic details Jesus didn't give.

No my friend...it's ALL God's word...it's all equally authoritative...and Jesus is Lord over it all.

Hopefully soon...you'll see that.

 

[candle glow]

What I did was obey God's word:

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless." Titus 3:9

It's not a fruitful discussion so I'm done with it.

It's not foolish to argue that Jesus' words are more important than anyone else's words. That's why he is called the word of God and no one else is.

I've given good reasons for why I think your argument is not fruitful, but you've not done so for my arguments. You simply rehashed your own argument over and over again.

I stand by what I said regarding the convenience of your doctrine, and how it allows you to pick and choose whom you want to listen to depending on the circumstances your find yourself in.

I gave an example of how many people claim that there is no problem with materialism because King David and Solomon were rich, and they certainly weren't bad guys, were they? Never mind what Jesus said about materialism and greed because you've got David and Solomon, right?

Another example is that of war and fighting our enemies. Jesus said to love our enemies, but many people once again turn to examples of old testament heroes (and even some NT examples) fighting battles and say, "see, it's right their in the inspired word of God, it's okay to fight our enemies".

It's not foolish to challenge these kinds of convenient doctrines, ebed. It may be that you yourself do not make these excuses, or maybe you use this doctrine to make different, yet similar, excuses to ignore Jesus' teachings.

But the bottom line is that Jesus is the word of God. Let me give another example. In the gospels Jesus only makes 2 references to Solomon, and in both cases he claimed that what he was offering was BETTER than what Solomon had to offer.

MT 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Look at it, ebed. Jesus quite clearly boasts of having a GREATER message than Solomon. See, it's really NOT me you are arguing with, is it? It's not me you are calling foolish, sarcastic, and cynical; it's Jesus, cause I'm only making the same point he makes right here. Jesus' message is better than anyone else's message.

Even though the evidence is so clear, it's almost certain your religious pride will not allow you to acknowledge it (i've seen this kind of thing many, many times before). Jesus himself can make the point and you won't see it, but then again that's the whole point of your doctrine; it allows you to dismiss Jesus' authority on the basis that he's just one of many voices in the crowd of "scripture".

Of course you don't put it that way yourself, but that's what it amounts to.

 

[ebedmelech]

It's not foolish to argue that Jesus' words are more important than anyone else's words. That's why he is called the word of God and no one else is.

I've given good reasons for why I think your argument is not fruitful, but you've not done so for my arguments. You simply rehashed your own argument over and over again.

I stand by what I said regarding the convenience of your doctrine, and how it allows you to pick and choose whom you want to listen to depending on the circumstances your find yourself in.

I gave an example of how many people claim that there is no problem with materialism because King David and Solomon were rich, and they certainly weren't bad guys, were they? Never mind what Jesus said about materialism and greed because you've got David and Solomon, right?

Another example is that of war and fighting our enemies. Jesus said to love our enemies, but many people once again turn to examples of old testament heroes (and even some NT examples) fighting battles and say, "see, it's right their in the inspired word of God, it's okay to fight our enemies".

It's not foolish to challenge these kinds of convenient doctrines, ebed. It may be that you yourself do not make these excuses, or maybe you use this doctrine to make different, yet similar, excuses to ignore Jesus' teachings.

But the bottom line is that Jesus is the word of God. Let me give another example. In the gospels Jesus only makes 2 references to Solomon, and in both cases he claimed that what he was offering was BETTER than what Solomon had to offer.

MT 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Look at it, ebed. Jesus quite clearly boasts of having a GREATER message than Solomon. See, it's really NOT me you are arguing with, is it? It's not me you are calling foolish, sarcastic, and cynical; it's Jesus, cause I'm only making the same point he makes right here. Jesus' message is better than anyone else's message.

Even though the evidence is so clear, it's almost certain your religious pride will not allow you to acknowledge it (i've seen this kind of thing many, many times before). Jesus himself can make the point and you won't see it, but then again that's the whole point of your doctrine; it allows you to dismiss Jesus' authority on the basis that he's just one of many voices in the crowd of "scripture".

Of course you don't put it that way yourself, but that's what it amounts to.

No...what I will do is just show you where Jesus Himself shows that the writers and prophets written words are just as authoritative as His words:

Matt 12:4
“Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Matt 21;16
and said to Him, “Do You hear what these children are saying?” And Jesus *said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘ Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies You have prepared praise for Yourself’?”

Matt 22:31
But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: ‘ I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

Mark 11:17
And He began to teach and say to them, “Is it not written, ‘ MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS’? But you have made it a ROBBERS’ DEN.”

Mark 12:10
Have you not even read this Scripture:‘ The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone;

Mark 14:21
For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

Mark 14:27
And Jesus *said to them, “You will all fall away, because it is written, ‘ I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED.’

Luke 7:26, 27 (Jesus speaking of John The Baptist)
But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and one who is more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written, ‘Behold, I send My messenger ahead of You, Who will prepare Your way before You.’

Luke 10:26
And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”

Luke 18:31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished.

Not only that...when Jesus was tempted by Satan he shows God's word is authoritative and applied even to Him. He quoted authoritative scripture every time showing that even HE WAS BOUND TO OBEY IT...and please note the *red type* where Jesus clearly say scripture is out of the mouth of God:

Matt 4:3-10
And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread. But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’” ”then the devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, ‘HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU’; and ‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’” Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’” Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’” Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.


Clearly Jesus was bound by scripture! Jesus showed that scripture had authority...even over Him, so He obeyed it and quoted it.

Lastly...if other scriptures are not as authoritative as what Jesus said, How are we to even believe the prophecy concerning Jesus coming into the world?

 

[candle glow]

Clearly Jesus was bound by scripture! Jesus showed that scripture had authority...even over Him, so He obeyed it and quoted it.

This is called "shifting the goal posts". It's what people do when they don't respond to the issue at hand. Instead, they change the point of the argument to suit their own personal bias.

I never said, at all, in any way, that "scripture" does not have authority or that we should not listen to, study, think about, and follow teachings which can be found in just about any book of the Bible. I would dare you to quote anywhere where I've made the kind of claims you are suggesting I've made about the authority of scripture, but I know you can't.

It's just you expressing your tunnel vision again.

What I've consistently said is the same thing Jesus himself said; his message is greater than any other message offered by anyone else. If the message people are teaching is consistent with Jesus' message, then we should definitely listen to those people.

If their message is NOT consistent with what Jesus taught, then we should NOT listen to those people, EVEN IF their message can be found in the Bible. This is very much the case with people like Solomon or King David and the way people use their example of incredible wealth and war-like actions to justify their own wealth and positions on war in this modern day.

You stubbornly refuse to address that issue, because it challenges your doctrine.

Being inspired is NOT the same as being infallible. Peter was praised for his faith and rebuked for his lack of faith almost in the same breath. He was clearly inspired when he professed that Jesus is the son of God, to the point that Jesus himself said that no person taught that to Peter, but that God himself had revealed it to him. That is certainly a case of someone being inspired.

And yet, Peter was not infallible. He still made mistakes and shortly after than situation he rebuked Jesus when Jesus said that he would be killed in Jerusalem. According to your doctrine, because Peter was inspired when he claimed Jesus was the son of God, his testimony then became equal to that of Jesus and Jesus had no right to rebuke Peter when Peter rebuked him about being killed in Jerusalem.

Can you see how confusing and ANTI Christ your doctrine is, when we say that any inspired person automatically becomes equal with Jesus?

For reference, here is the example I am referring to:

MT 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

MT 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

-------

MT 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

MT 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter's inspiration happened BEFORE the rebuke and it's all recorded right there in scripture, ebed. So which is it? Was Jesus right to rebuke Peter, or was Peter right to rebuke Jesus? They were both inspired and both examples can be found in "scripture", which is consistent with the criteria you are using for your doctrine.

So, was Jesus greater, or was Peter greater, or did their two inspired rebukes cancel each other out? What does the practical reality show?

You simple have no case, ebed.

 

[ebedmelech]

This is called "shifting the goal posts". It's what people do when they don't respond to the issue at hand. Instead, they change the point of the argument to suit their own personal bias.

I never said, at all, in any way, that "scripture" does not have authority or that we should not listen to, study, think about, and follow teachings which can be found in just about any book of the Bible. I would dare you to quote anywhere where I've made the kind of claims you are suggesting I've made about the authority of scripture, but I know you can't.

It's just you expressing your tunnel vision again.

What I've consistently said is the same thing Jesus himself said; his message is greater than any other message offered by anyone else. If the message people are teaching is consistent with Jesus' message, then we should definitely listen to those people.

If their message is NOT consistent with what Jesus taught, then we should NOT listen to those people, EVEN IF their message can be found in the Bible. This is very much the case with people like Solomon or King David and the way people use their example of incredible wealth and war-like actions to justify their own wealth and positions on war in this modern day.

You stubbornly refuse to address that issue, because it challenges your doctrine.

Being inspired is NOT the same as being infallible. Peter was praised for his faith and rebuked for his lack of faith almost in the same breath. He was clearly inspired when he professed that Jesus is the son of God, to the point that Jesus himself said that no person taught that to Peter, but that God himself had revealed it to him. That is certainly a case of someone being inspired.

And yet, Peter was not infallible. He still made mistakes and shortly after than situation he rebuked Jesus when Jesus said that he would be killed in Jerusalem. According to your doctrine, because Peter was inspired when he claimed Jesus was the son of God, his testimony then became equal to that of Jesus and Jesus had no right to rebuke Peter when Peter rebuked him about being killed in Jerusalem.

Can you see how confusing and ANTI Christ your doctrine is, when we say that any inspired person automatically becomes equal with Jesus?

For reference, here is the example I am referring to:


Peter's inspiration happened BEFORE the rebuke and it's all recorded right there in scripture, ebed. So which is it? Was Jesus right to rebuke Peter, or was Peter right to rebuke Jesus? They were both inspired and both examples can be found in "scripture", which is consistent with the criteria you are using for your doctrine.

So, was Jesus greater, or was Peter greater, or did their two inspired rebukes cancel each other out? What does the practical reality show?

You simple have no case, ebed.

Jesus never said any of what you said in the way you think He said it.

I will dismiss this again by what Jesus said to Satan once more.

"EVERY WORD OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD".

That is all of scripture period. What Jesus said was from God just like the rest of scripture. He didn't say his words were greater or more important than any other words in the scripture.

No. All of scripture is equally authoritative because nothing Jesus said went against the scripture.

If you want to think Jesus words are greater than the words of Paul or Peter, or any other books of the scripture...go right ahead.

 

[candle glow]

Surprise surprise, ebed dismissing arguments which contradict his doctrine. You say Jesus didn't say the things I say he said in the way I think he said it? What a confusing jumble of words, but very convenient for you to hide behind. On other forums what you've done here is called "word salad" and is sometimes deliberately used to jumble/confuse the issues.

So, lets take a closer look at what you've said about my words:

esus never said any of what you said in the way you think He said it.

What is the way I think he said it? Do you actually understand what I'm saying?

I said that Jesus' message is greater than Solomon's. I posted a direct quote from Jesus where he says EXACTLY that. He uses those exact words, "one greater than Solomon is here", in reference to himself.

Perhaps it is you who thinks Jesus meant something other than what he actually said, because I used a direct quote and promoted the exact words he used. Yes, that must be it.

You also conveniently sidestepped the example of inspired Peter rebuking Jesus. Was he right to do so? Jesus himself said very clearly that Peter was hearing from God. According to your doctrine, Peter was right to rebuke Jesus, because Peter's inspiration made his testimony equal to Jesus.

But, in an effort to protect your doctrine about every other inspired person in existence being equal to Jesus, you are forced to ignore or dismiss these troublesome verses.

On the other hand, I've actually dealt with your arguments. I've not once dismissed any teaching in the Bible or criticized any other inspired person. I've only said that Jesus is greater than them all. I've used actual evidence to back that up, but when I do you simply dismiss it. How convenient for you.

I think the evidence is clear that you are protecting a convenient doctrine, a tradition of men which says Jesus is no one than one of many voices in the crowd.

The reason this traditional approach is so popular is because it allows people to conveniently ignore Jesus by focusing on some OTHER person/ example recorded in the Bible. When someone says, "hey what about Jesus; he taught something different than the example of Solomon" you can conveniently pull out your doctrine and say, "hey, it's all the word of God so don't worry about it".

 

[ebedmelech]

Surprise surprise, ebed dismissing arguments which contradict his doctrine. You say Jesus didn't say the things I say he said in the way I think he said it? What a confusing jumble of words, but very convenient for you to hide behind. On other forums what you've done here is called "word salad" and is sometimes deliberately used to jumble/confuse the issues.

So, lets take a closer look at what you've said about my words:



What is the way I think he said it? Do you actually understand what I'm saying?

I said that Jesus' message is greater than Solomon's. I posted a direct quote from Jesus where he says EXACTLY that. He uses those exact words, "one greater than Solomon is here", in reference to himself.

Perhaps it is you who thinks Jesus meant something other than what he actually said, because I used a direct quote and promoted the exact words he used. Yes, that must be it.

You also conveniently sidestepped the example of inspired Peter rebuking Jesus. Was he right to do so? Jesus himself said very clearly that Peter was hearing from God. According to your doctrine, Peter was right to rebuke Jesus, because Peter's inspiration made his testimony equal to Jesus.

But, in an effort to protect your doctrine about every other inspired person in existence being equal to Jesus, you are forced to ignore or dismiss these troublesome verses.

On the other hand, I've actually dealt with your arguments. I've not once dismissed any teaching in the Bible or criticized any other inspired person. I've only said that Jesus is greater than them all. I've used actual evidence to back that up, but when I do you simply dismiss it. How convenient for you.

I think the evidence is clear that you are protecting a convenient doctrine, a tradition of men which says Jesus is no one than one of many voices in the crowd.

The reason this traditional approach is so popular is because it allows people to conveniently ignore Jesus by focusing on some OTHER person/ example recorded in the Bible. When someone says, "hey what about Jesus; he taught something different than the example of Solomon" you can conveniently pull out your doctrine and say, "hey, it's all the word of God so don't worry about it".

I didn't address what Jesus said of being greater than Solomon because that's a truth that cannot be denied. Obviously that is true.

I don't contend with truth.

Again you're missing the boat...or perhaps you simply want to contend.

 

[candle glow]

I didn't address what Jesus said of being greater than Solomon because that's a truth that cannot be denied. Obviously that is true.

WHEW! Finally! Thanks for acknowledging that. However, I still have a slight issue with the way you expressed this. When I earlier said that the "logos" and "rhema" interpretations of Jesus being the word of God (i.e. as a title AND as a teacher) work together toward the same basic point of the importance of listening to Jesus' teachings, you seemed to be offended and argued that there was a definite difference between the two, quite different from the point I was making.

So, when you say that Jesus is obviously better than Solomon, are you including Jesus' teachings, lifestyle, and message in that admission as well?

Also, you may not remember it as well as I do, but in this post you appear to give a different reason for why you didn't specifically address the issue of Jesus bragging about his superiority over Solomon than what you did in your previous post. You indirectly addressed it In your previous post when you said:

I will dismiss this again by what Jesus said to Satan once more.

You went on to argue that all the words in the Bible have equal importance, which is an argument you've rehashed several times over again and directly contradicts what Jesus said about his ministry being greater than that of Solomon.

After all that effort you put into claiming that Jesus' teachings/wisdom/ministry were not better than Solomon, it seems strange that you are now acting as though the point I've been making was obvious to you all along.


What I really want to know is what you thought of my interpretation as to how people ABUSE the doctrine of treating Jesus' words as equal to all other biblical writers, by claiming that it's okay to be rich or to fight/kill our enemies because of the example of David and Solomon.

Do you think there is any truth in what I've suggested on that issue. Note, I'm not accusing you of doing this (yet), but only asking, generally, if you think there is any truth in what I've suggested.

 

[ebedmelech]

WHEW! Finally! Thanks for acknowledging that. However, I still have a slight issue with the way you expressed this. When I earlier said that the "logos" and "rhema" interpretations of Jesus being the word of God (i.e. as a title AND as a teacher) work together toward the same basic point of the importance of listening to Jesus' teachings, you seemed to be offended and argued that there was a definite difference between the two, quite different from the point I was making.

So, when you say that Jesus is obviously better than Solomon, are you including Jesus' teachings, lifestyle, and message in that admission as well?

Also, you may not remember it as well as I do, but in this post you appear to give a different reason for why you didn't specifically address the issue of Jesus bragging about his superiority over Solomon than what you did in your previous post. You indirectly addressed it In your previous post when you said:



You went on to argue that all the words in the Bible have equal importance, which is an argument you've rehashed several times over again and directly contradicts what Jesus said about his ministry being greater than that of Solomon.

After all that effort you put into claiming that Jesus' teachings/wisdom/ministry were not better than Solomon, it seems strange that you are now acting as though the point I've been making was obvious to you all along.


What I really want to know is what you thought of my interpretation as to how people ABUSE the doctrine of treating Jesus' words as equal to all other biblical writers, by claiming that it's okay to be rich or to fight/kill our enemies because of the example of David and Solomon.

Do you think there is any truth in what I've suggested on that issue. Note, I'm not accusing you of doing this (yet), but only asking, generally, if you think there is any truth in what I've suggested.

No need to rehash this. What I'll do is agree that we disagree.

I simply agreed that what Jesus said of being greater than Solomon is true. Jesus is God...so why would I contend that? That is Jesus (The Logos). That has nothing to do with taking Jesus "spoken words" (rhema) of scripture.

When Jesus is called "The Logos" in John 1 it is not referring to words at all. It's referring to His essence, His Deity, His incarnation, and so much more.

No. You *think* Jesus words are to be taken over other biblical writers...I say NO...every word of the scriptures are from God and NONE to be taken over the other.

What I said is how I see it!

ALL scripture is from God, whether Jesus, Paul, Peter, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, John...you name them if they authored a book of the bible it's God's word and none greater than the other or to be taken over the other.

My mind will never change on that.

 

[candle glow]

When Jesus is called "The Logos" in John 1 it is not referring to words at all

So, you are saying the title "The Word of God" has nothing to do with spoken words, "at all"? Word has noting to do with words? Lol. Seriously, ebed, I'm not usually one to use the word "stupid" in a forum post related to what others say; I generally try to find a more diplomatic way to express that thought. However, in this particular case, I think it's warranted. Trying to say that the title of "Word of God" for Jesus relates in no way to the words Jesus spoke is stupid.

It's not an attack on you personally, as I don't believe you are a stupid person. But, your argument here is stupid.


I also notice that you conveniently avoided the two most significant questions I asked you. When you agreed that Jesus is obviously better than Solomon (like Jesus said he was) were you also referring to Jesus' message as being better than the message Solomon had to offer?

Well, you did kind of answer it in a round about way, though I don't know why you wouldn't be straightforward about it. You've separated Jesus' divinity from his teachings and created a situation where "the word of God" has no meaning except yet another fancy title for Jesus.

So, based on what you've said, it looks like you are saying it is a definite NO, that Jesus' message is better than Solomon.

So, what was Jesus talking about when he said that he is greater than Solomon? Was he saying that he is a better looking guy? Was he saying that he is a better son of God than Solomon? lol, really Ebed, the more I think about it the more your argument makes me laugh.

Jesus said that the queen of Sheba traveled a huge distance to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but that one GREATER than Solomon was here. The context of what is greater is obviously Jesus' wisdom; his teachings; his message.

Once again you've tried to protect your doctrine by distorting the point of what Jesus said about being greater than Solomon.



Also, you ignored my question about whether or not you could see any truth in my claim that people abuse this teaching about Jesus' message being equal to King David or Solomon's teachings. They abuse it by claiming that it is okay to be rich, store up treasures on the Earth, and fight our enemies because of David and Solomons teachings/examples. They claim that "it's all the word of God" implying that David and Solomons' example cancels Jesus' teachings. They lived very different life styles and this is particularly why Jesus said, on two occasions, that he was greater than Solomon.

Of course, you have no obligation to answer any question, but I think it speaks volumes when you don't, particularly when that question directly challenges a fundamental flaw in your doctrine.

Have a fantastic day!

 

[RaiseTheDead]

Ok, in response to the thread title question, has this thread gone into detail of the Greek concept of logos?

 

[ebedmelech]

see next post

 

[ebedmelech]

So, you are saying the title "The Word of God" has nothing to do with spoken words, "at all"? Word has noting to do with words? Lol. Seriously, ebed, I'm not usually one to use the word "stupid" in a forum post related to what others say; I generally try to find a more diplomatic way to express that thought. However, in this particular case, I think it's warranted. Trying to say that the title of "Word of God" for Jesus relates in no way to the words Jesus spoke is stupid.

It's not an attack on you personally, as I don't believe you are a stupid person. But, your argument here is stupid.

You may think it's stupid and that's fine. One day you may understand.

I also notice that you conveniently avoided the two most significant questions I asked you. When you agreed that Jesus is obviously better than Solomon (like Jesus said he was) were you also referring to Jesus' message as being better than the message Solomon had to offer?

Well, you did kind of answer it in a round about way, though I don't know why you wouldn't be straightforward about it. You've separated Jesus' divinity from his teachings and created a situation where "the word of God" has no meaning except yet another fancy title for Jesus.

I answered that question directly, you happen to not understand the answer. I said Jesus is God. What else do I need to say after that?

So, based on what you've said, it looks like you are saying it is a definite NO, that Jesus' message is better than Solomon.

So, what was Jesus talking about when he said that he is greater than Solomon? Was he saying that he is a better looking guy? Was he saying that he is a better son of God than Solomon? lol, really Ebed, the more I think about it the more your argument makes me laugh.

Jesus said that the queen of Sheba traveled a huge distance to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but that one GREATER than Solomon was here. The context of what is greater is obviously Jesus' wisdom; his teachings; his message.

Once again you've tried to protect your doctrine by distorting the point of what Jesus said about being greater than Solomon.

Also, you ignored my question about whether or not you could see any truth in my claim that people abuse this teaching about Jesus' message being equal to King David or Solomon's teachings. They abuse it by claiming that it is okay to be rich, store up treasures on the Earth, and fight our enemies because of David and Solomons teachings/examples. They claim that "it's all the word of God" implying that David and Solomons' example cancels Jesus' teachings. They lived very different life styles and this is particularly why Jesus said, on two occasions, that he was greater than Solomon.

Of course, you have no obligation to answer any question, but I think it speaks volumes when you don't, particularly when that question directly challenges a fundamental flaw in your doctrine.

Have a fantastic day!

Jesus didn't say "His Message" is greater than Solomon. What Jesus said "A Greater than Solomon is here". His point is going to His superiority over Solomon altogether. Perhaps you might want to read it again.

You see this again is about Jesus "The Logos" which is so much more than words.

One of these days you might get it, God willing.

*Jesus is Wisdom - Proverbs 8

*Jesus is the "I Am" John - 8:58

*Jesus is all the I Am(s) in John 10

*Jesus is The Way, The Truth, The Life - John 14:6

All of that and so much more is what it means when He is called "The Word" (The Logos)

Simply look it up.

What you don't seem to get is all of what Jesus is, is summed up in the title given Him as "The Word" (Logos) in John 1:1. For the last time it has NOTHING to do with words per se. When Jesus is called The Logos there's NOTHING to really define it...it is a title that encompasses everything Jesus is.

I think this kind of sums up what I'm trying to share with you:

This is by R C Sproul about Jesus as "The Logos":

In Greek philosophy, the logos remains an impersonal force, a lifeless and abstract philosophical concept that is a necessary postulate for the cause of order and purpose in the universe. In Hebrew thought, the Logos is personal. He indeed has the power of unity, coherence, and purpose, but the distinctive point is that the biblical Logos is a He, not an it.

All attempts to translate the word Logos have suffered from some degree of inadequacy. No English word is able to capture the fullness of John's Logos when he declared that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Attempts have been made by philosophers to translate Logos as logic, act, or deed—all of which are inadequate definitions.

God's Logos does include action. The Logos is the eternal Word in action. But it is no irrational action or sheer expression of feeling. It is the divine Actor, acting in creation and redemption in a coherent way, who is announced in John's Gospel.

That the Word became flesh and dwelt among us is the startling conclusion of John's prologue. The cosmic Christ enters our humanity. It is the supreme moment of visitation of the eternal with the temporal, the infinite with the finite, the unconditioned with the conditioned.

"Logos" means so much more.

Be blessed of the Lord.

 

[candle glow]

You may think it's stupid and that's fine. One day you may understand.

I understand quite well where you are coming from. In fact, I've challenged you on it several times and you stubbornly refuse to deal with it. There is a very good reason why people relegate Jesus' teachings to the authority of any other example found in the Bible.

It is because they want to be able to ignore Jesus' teachings when it suits them. For example, When Jesus challenges us on our materialism, greed, and loyalty to the economic system of the world, a great many people will point to King David or Solomon and say, "but those guys were rich, and it's all the word of God, so there!".

It's an abuse, and it's completely justified with your argument. I understand very well why people work so hard to defend this doctrine.

What you don't seem to get is all of what Jesus is, is summed up in the title given Him as "The Word" (Logos) in John 1:1. For the last time it has NOTHING to do with words per se.

If I say, that man is the "driver of God". Would you feel it reasonable to argue that the title has nothing to do with driving? Can you see just how stupid your argument is? The word of God has nothing to do with the words Jesus spoke?

He said "anyone who is ashamed of me and my words, I will be ashamed of that person". He said also said, that both the wise and the foolish will hear his teachings, but only the wise will obey him. He said "why do you call me 'Lord", but do not obey me"? The list goes on and on. Jesus made a HUGE deal about the need to listen to his teachings and obey them.

Now, here you are, arguing that the title "word of God" has nothing to do with those teachings, and that Jesus' teachings are just one of many in the crowd.

It's all a matter of convenience, hiding behind arguments about all scripture being inspired; in the end the bottom line is that Jesus is nothing special at all. Oh sure, you are fine to call him "lord" and "son of God", but even the demons in the gospels could do that much.

The real difference is when it comes to his teachings, the values of the kingdom of Heaven, the word of God. When it comes to that, Jesus is just some other guy in the Bible.

Good luck with that doctrine, but I can tell you plain as day that God isn't stupid enough to fall for it, especially if you try to convince him that it's HIS fault that he inspired other writers, which confused you as to who's the real boss.

It's like you will say, "but Lord, I didn't know Jesus' words were better than anyone else's words", and God will say, "but you knew he was called the word of God, and that NO ONE else was every given such a title", and you will respond, "but lord, if you look up the difference in meanings using the original greek, blah, blah, blah", and God will just roll his eyes, pull the lever to his right which opens the trap door you are standing on, and then finish it off with, "next".

 

[Leap]

I've never thought about this before. I believe it's because of Revelation 19, but does anyone know of any more references or information on why we know this is Jesus?

Thank you

To my understanding, God acts through his word (think of "let there be light") so the Word of God is how God acts in this world.

Also interesting (well, to me anyway ) is the difference between Logos and Lexus. Logos is the spoken word whilst Lexus is the written word (hence "lexicograhper")....making Jesus the Logos and the Bible the Lexus.

 

[Reginaren]

Yes nice description about Jesus is given. Yes Jesus is a word, I firmly believe that. I have also read Bible, its awesome. Your life will change after reading bible, you will start thinking high. It has everything in it.

 

[ebedmelech]

I understand quite well where you are coming from. In fact, I've challenged you on it several times and you stubbornly refuse to deal with it. There is a very good reason why people relegate Jesus' teachings to the authority of any other example found in the Bible.

It is because they want to be able to ignore Jesus' teachings when it suits them. For example, When Jesus challenges us on our materialism, greed, and loyalty to the economic system of the world, a great many people will point to King David or Solomon and say, "but those guys were rich, and it's all the word of God, so there!".

It's an abuse, and it's completely justified with your argument. I understand very well why people work so hard to defend this doctrine.



If I say, that man is the "driver of God". Would you feel it reasonable to argue that the title has nothing to do with driving? Can you see just how stupid your argument is? The word of God has nothing to do with the words Jesus spoke?

He said "anyone who is ashamed of me and my words, I will be ashamed of that person". He said also said, that both the wise and the foolish will hear his teachings, but only the wise will obey him. He said "why do you call me 'Lord", but do not obey me"? The list goes on and on. Jesus made a HUGE deal about the need to listen to his teachings and obey them.

Now, here you are, arguing that the title "word of God" has nothing to do with those teachings, and that Jesus' teachings are just one of many in the crowd.

It's all a matter of convenience, hiding behind arguments about all scripture being inspired; in the end the bottom line is that Jesus is nothing special at all. Oh sure, you are fine to call him "lord" and "son of God", but even the demons in the gospels could do that much.

The real difference is when it comes to his teachings, the values of the kingdom of Heaven, the word of God. When it comes to that, Jesus is just some other guy in the Bible.

Good luck with that doctrine, but I can tell you plain as day that God isn't stupid enough to fall for it, especially if you try to convince him that it's HIS fault that he inspired other writers, which confused you as to who's the real boss.

It's like you will say, "but Lord, I didn't know Jesus' words were better than anyone else's words", and God will say, "but you knew he was called the word of God, and that NO ONE else was every given such a title", and you will respond, "but lord, if you look up the difference in meanings using the original greek, blah, blah, blah", and God will just roll his eyes, pull the lever to his right which opens the trap door you are standing on, and then finish it off with, "next".

Well...I think this has gone the full gambit, so there's no use to continue it.

I totally get what you're saying but I will never agree.

When "The Logos" appears again...He'll explain it to you. You've not one time changed me on anything. Just because I agreed with what you said doesn't mean my view changed at all.

Jesus being called "The Word" is right on par with what God said to Moses when Moses asked "who shall I tell them has sent me?" God told him tell them "I AM" has sent you...it had nothing to do with words and everything to do with with everything God is.

What you want me to agree to is that Jesus' teachings have some greater meaning than the rest of scripture....they don't. I'll say it again all scripture is scripture...when it comes to what Jesus said, Paul said, or anyone else...it's equally authoritative because it's all from God...perhaps I need to quote Paul again:

"ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Interesting that Paul didn't separate Jesus' teachings from the rest of scripture...he said "ALL SCRIPTURE".

Jesus as "The WORD" (The Logos), is not referring to the words Jesus said in scripture...it has to do with EVERYTHING Jesus is:

*God the Creator

*God in human flesh

*God the 2nd person of the Trinity

* God the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

*The ONLY begotten of the Father.

Now...seeing that Jesus "The Word" (The Logos) is all of that and more...that should answer your folly of trying to assert I don't want to obey Jesus teachings. Jesus is my Lord and Savior! However, what he said in scripture has no more authority than the rest of scripture. This is why I ignore the assertions you attempt to make as the ridiculous statements above. That's you attempting to say what I believe...but where do you find anywhere that I said such things? That's quite disingenuous of you.

There's a reason Jesus said to the Pharisees "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."...that's "The Word" (The Logos), because words are insufficient.

One day you may see it.

Be blessed of the Lord.

 

[Lyssah]

Hey guys! It's been a while since I've been able to check my computer. It's interesting to see where this conversation has gone. Thank you everyone for your comments.