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Why is it that many Christians

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Light of the East

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Why is it that many Christians only cry 'legalism' when their favorite
sin comes up? Murder, lying, theft, sodomy; very few have a problem
believing they are still sins. But bring up pork or shrimp, or keeping
the correct Sabbath day, and they are instantly offended.

Perhaps your problem is that you don't realize that the Old Covenant is gone. All those things were part of the Old Covenant laws.
 
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aiki

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Were is the scripture that states that these laws are set aside?

Well, for starters, try re-reading my last post. And then consider the following:

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 3:20-22
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believ
e...

Romans 7:4
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


Galatians 5:18
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

And so on.

I have a body and I am assuming you have one as well, if the One who created me and carefully stitched me together in my mother's womb says not to eat certain things maybe I should listen.

1 Timothy 6:17
17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy.

As I said, the commands concerning diet that God gave to Israel were about separation not health. I know people who eat shrimp quite regularly who are fitter by far than 95% of the human population.

Selah.
 
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pat34lee

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The New Covenant is with individuals, not tribes. The Law of Jesus is just as binding on Christians as the Law of Moses was on Jews. But the two laws are not the same in most details.

There is only one set of laws. Not from Moses or from
Jesus, but from God himself.
 
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1John2:4

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Well, for starters, try re-reading my last post. And then consider the following:

Romans 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Romans 3:20-22
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believ
e...

Romans 7:4
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.


Romans 7:6
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.


Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


Galatians 3:24-25
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


Galatians 5:18
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


And so on.



1 Timothy 6:17
17 Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy.


As I said, the commands concerning diet that God gave to Israel were about separation not health. I know people who eat shrimp quite regularly who are fitter by far than 95% of the human population.

Selah.

Ok what about these verses?

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Romans 6:1-3


What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” Romans 7:7

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. Romans 7:14

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.1John 5:3

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12
 
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pat34lee

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Perhaps your problem is that you don't realize that the Old Covenant is gone. All those things were part of the Old Covenant laws.

Read the new covenant. It isn't in effect yet.
It won't be until the millennial reign, if not
after that.
 
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pat34lee

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Those laws were not intended to limit where mankind can live. Those laws were only ever for Hebrews, living under God's rule specifically in Israel. And the Hebrews were all supposed to live THERE, forever (unless they broke the laws and were scattered with the destruction of Israel), so Hebrews were never supposed to be living in places where they couldn't keep the Sabbath.

The Law of Moses never, ever, at any time before or after Jesus, applied to anybody but people living in Israel. That's it. That's all.

The OT covenant at Sinai wasn't WITH us. It was with those Hebrews.

Let's check what you said here.

The laws are only for Israel when in the land. Yes and no.
Some are, most aren't. Most are how to live and serve
God and deal with your neighbors, which apply everywhere.

The laws apply to anyone wishing to serve God, wherever
they may be. Even during the Babylonian exile or the great
dispersion which has not ended yet.

What do you think cannot be done to observe the Sabbath
outside of Israel? It is a day of rest, a break from the daily
life in order to slow down and listen to God.

There was a mixed multitude at Sinai, accepting for all of
the nations. If not, that leaves a problem for non-Israeli
Christians. There are no gentile covenants. If you aren't
part of Israel, you have nothing. This includes the new
covenant, which Moses describes in Jeremiah 31:31.

Their only hope is in Isaiah 56:6-8

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD,
to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants,
every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold
of my covenant
;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful
in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall
be accepted upon mine altar
; for mine house shall be called an house
of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will
I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.


Notice 2 requirements. Keep the Sabbath, make burnt offerings, which
most Christians think are gone forever.
 
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pat34lee

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He does not.

Sabbath, as defined in Scripture, begins at sundown, and ends at the next sundown. That is Sabbath. That is God's Word.

Men have provided a way for Jews to keep Sabbath, by choosing arbitrary times and keeping track.

Given that Jews were all supposed to be living in Israel anyway, were God's law followed meticulously, the situation could never arise, because no Jews should ever be living anywhere but in the land allotted to them, which is Israel. There never should be a Jew in the Arctic having to figure out Sabbath rules where there are days and nights that are 4 months long.

You can live anywhere and have a home in Israel.
The only difference is that the men were required to make
a pilgrimage 3 times a year to the temple for certain feasts.

The laws were given while the tribes still had 40 years to
wander the deserts. Why? So they would have practice with
the laws and living under God's rules before they got their
land. Read about Daniel and Joseph, to see that they were
not allowed to set aside God's laws and covenants just
because they were captives or in exile from their homes.

Why is the Sabbath important? It reminds us weekly who
our creator is, and how he created everything in one week.
For those who buy into the religion of evolution, they believe
creation a myth, which makes God either a myth or a liar.
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/advanced-topics/7-facts-about-the-seventh-day
 
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Vicomte13

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There is only one set of laws. Not from Moses or from
Jesus, but from God himself.

There are many laws from God, and they change.

Example: upon creation, God gave man plants to eat (and presumably, milk).
After the flood, he gave man all animals to eat, but they had to be killed first (or, their blood was not to be eaten).
In the Exodus, God gave the Hebrews a specific food regimen, but he didn't change the food laws for the rest of man.
Then Jesus made all foods clean for the Jews, and the Holy Spirit re-emphasized this by lowering a sheet of "unclean" animals to Peter and telling him three times to kill and eat, and replying three times to Peter's demurrals "do not call profane what God has made clean".
And then, at the Last Supper, Jesus authorized the eating of blood: HIS.

That's three food changes for a Gentile, and four for a Jew.
God changes his laws from time to time, and tells men about it when he does.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Common mistake.
Go read what Jesus said again.
This never happened, and NO ONE in the BIBLE ever thought so, nor said so.
Mixed up ?
Yes.
Why ?
men screwed up.
What did Jesus say ?
He said "My Words are Spirit, and they are LIFE" (Jesus could NEVER SIN, NEVER eat blood, NEVER SAY to eat(physical) blood. NEVER SAID TO.)
Glad we got that cleared up.
The other mistakes , maybe later.
And then, at the Last Supper, Jesus authorized the eating of blood: HIS.
 
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Vicomte13

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Let's check what you said here.

The laws are only for Israel when in the land. Yes and no.
Some are, most aren't. Most are how to live and serve
God and deal with your neighbors, which apply everywhere.

The laws apply to anyone wishing to serve God, wherever
they may be. Even during the Babylonian exile or the great
dispersion which has not ended yet.

What do you think cannot be done to observe the Sabbath
outside of Israel? It is a day of rest, a break from the daily
life in order to slow down and listen to God.

There was a mixed multitude at Sinai, accepting for all of
the nations. If not, that leaves a problem for non-Israeli
Christians. There are no gentile covenants. If you aren't
part of Israel, you have nothing. This includes the new
covenant, which Moses describes in Jeremiah 31:31.

Their only hope is in Isaiah 56:6-8

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD,
to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants,
every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold
of my covenant
;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful
in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall
be accepted upon mine altar
; for mine house shall be called an house
of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will
I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.


Notice 2 requirements. Keep the Sabbath, make burnt offerings, which
most Christians think are gone forever.

Outside of Israel, you cannot have the farm, which is your sustenance for yourself and your family.
Outside of Israel, you do not have the priests and the priesthood to perform the rites.
Sure, one could live JUST outside out Israel and make it back for the three yearly feasts, but one certainly could not live far away and get back to Jerusalem thrice per year, as required, but one could not make the three annual pilgrimages from any great distance (say, from Rome) before the age of modern rapid travel.

In any case, it's pretty clear that you are what Paul would call a "Judaizer". You believe that the Mosaic Law is fundamental to salvation, that a Christian essentially has to become a Jew.

I don't agree at all.

We should probably leave it at that, because we're never going to convince each other different.
 
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Vicomte13

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Common mistake.
Go read what Jesus said again.
This never happened, and NO ONE in the BIBLE ever thought so, nor said so.
Mixed up ?
Yes.
Why ?
men screwed up.
What did Jesus say ?
He said "My Words are Spirit, and they are LIFE" (Jesus could NEVER SIN, NEVER eat blood, NEVER SAY to eat(physical) blood. NEVER SAID TO.)
Glad we got that cleared up.
The other mistakes , maybe later.

I am afraid that the mistake is yours. We read the same text, and come to radically different conclusions as to what it says. I am certain I'm right on the essentials. And so are you. We don't agree. Which means that our differences are irreconcilable.

That, in turn, means that we can keep repeating the same things over and over to each other, getting nastier and nastier with each pass (thus far, I have refrained from that; you haven't). And this will accomplish...what?

Nothing positive.

Therefore, I think it's time for us to give it a rest. You've already lost your patience and I'm starting to lose mine. Rather than return tit for tat, I'm going to leave it off now. Good night.
 
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1John2:4

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Well said. I am not an argumentative person at heart, and have no reason to argue with it. You obviously believe that, as a Christian, you are an Israelite, under the Sinai Covenant, and bound by those laws. I obviously don't believe that. We have our reasons. It does not offend me that you believe this, and I wish you the best of luck in doing so.

For my part, I know that those laws, of Israel, do not apply to me as law because they say right on their face the group to whom they apply, and I'm not among them. I also recognize that God was getting at something under that law. Jesus explained that the summary of that law was "Love your neighbor as yourself, and love God above all". When I read the Hebrew Law in that light, things like those you mentioned come forward: the purpose of the sabbaths - to give rest to man, animal and the land. But if those things are actually binding LAW for Christians, then no Christian should ever work in the financial industry, nor ever invest in bonds or put money in the bank - for the charging of interest on loans is sin. And of course Christians and Jews should be univocally calling for the complete wiping out of all debt - private and public - every seven years, and the freeing of all prisoners every 50 years. Debt cancellation, and the freedom of people from all debt obligations to one another, and from criminal liability also - the wiping clean of the slate in the Jubilee - is absolutely central and fundamental to God's law of Israel. IT, in particular, is something that God speaks of being violated again and again through the prophets. God never mentions the trimming of beards things again. What he harangues the Hebrews for through the prophets are three things: The charging of interest on debts and the failure to wipe out debts without further consequences every seven years, the failure to keep the sabbaths, and the failure (of the Northern Kingdom) to limit their religious services exclusively to the hands of the Levitical priests, and the insistence of the Northern Kingdom of local sacrifices.

I have seen Christians criticize, even berate other Christians for not following the food laws, or for not keeping the Sabbaths, "because the Law..." I have never heard of a Christian movement, made of these Christians, insisting that mortgages be cancelled after 6 years, and all interest-bearing debt as an abomination to God. The Torah is chock full of the categorical, absolute prohibition on the charging or payment of interest on money that is lent between believers. To foreigners, yes. A Christian nation, if that really is the law, must issue Treasury Bonds at zero percent interest. Christians cannot invest their money at interest, but must instead loan it to poor people who ask, at zero percent interest, and they have to forgive the balance that is not paid back after seven years.

No Christian can take another Christian to court for failure to pay an interest debt - because the charging of interest is an abomination.

If the law is applied as read, that is what it says. I have never heard a single Christian who is willing to uphold the Sabbath and dietary system willing to uphold the extensive, mandatory financial and criminal justice system that God imposed on Israel also. Law is law, after all.

Now, for me, this is not a LEGAL problem, because it is clear to me from the very face of the written document that the Law of Moses, in its entirety, are merely articles of covenant in a contract between the Hebrews at Sinai and their circumcised lineal descendants, and YHWH. It is clear as a matter of law, as written, that that Law never was law for me, either before Sinai, or after Sinai, irrespective of whether Christ ever existed.

Just because the Law of Sinai is not LAW does not mean that it should not be taken very seriously. After all, God only set up one state in all of history that he ruled directly. He intended it for it to be successful and last forever. I think that those laws God imposed - for he did not leave the Hebrews with ANY legislature, so ALL of the law and regulation came from the mouth of God alone - were to make Israel ideal, and if followed, would have made Israel stand above all other nations, a model forever. So certainly I think that IF a state were really governed that way, it would end up being best (and probably favored by God).

BUT we are not held to that standard by God. For God only promised the circumcised lineal descendants of the Hebrews at Sinai that he would PROTECT their state under those laws. Only to them did he give the Urim and Thummim by which they could ALWAYS directly consult God for an answer to any hard judgment facing them.

Even if we follow all the laws by imitation, we do not, thereby, gain the guarantee of protection. Nor do we gaing the certitude of judgment, because we have not been given the Urim and Thummim.

God imposed a year-long agricultural sabbath every seven years. Which meant that after harvest in the sixth year, there would be no planting again until the eighth year. For two full years the Israelites would have to live off stores and gleanings. And in the Jubilee year, the fiftieth year, a SECOND consecutive Sabbath of the land commenced, so the Hebrews had to live for three years, from the end of harvest in the 48th year until the harvest in the 51st year, before planting anything. They had to live off stores and whatever God gave them naturally in the land.

They relied on God to always provide bountiful crops every six years, and especially bountiful ones in the 48th year (for the 49th year was a sabbatical year, and the 50th was the second sabbath, of the Jubilee. God promised them that, if they followed the law, he would never send a famine or a crop failure in those years, and that he would always provide bounty in the 51st year. Always. God promised that the weather would be grand every 7 years, and every 48 and 51 years.

God never promised us that. Even if we follow all of the Laws of Torah, we are not Hebrews under the promise, and we cannot rely on God to provide us enough food for us to grow and harvest NOTHING every 7 years, and to grow and harvest nothing in the 49th or 50th year. God did not promise that, and there is no reason at all to believe that if the Swedes went and did that, that God would be BOUND to provide them the miracle of guaranteed good weather and bumper crops every 7 years.

In fact, Jesus warned us not to put God to the test. The Gospel of Jesus and the promises of the New Covenant simply are not of this world. The Torah is very much of this world. It never even HINTS at life after death, judgment, the City of God and the Lake of Fire. None of that. It is about material prosperity and happiness in a specific exemplary state in this life, thanks to obedience to God, for a people selected by God to exhibit that. The Gospel, by contrast, promises material hardship and suffering in this life, with the greatest rewards in the next life going to the penurious faithful. There is nothing in the Gospel about peoples and nations and governments. Just as the Torah is ENTIRELY earth focused, the goal of the Gospel is ENTIRELY afterlife focused. Jesus promises hardship in the world, and reward in the next. YHWH promises Hebrews, only, prosperity and peace and victory in this world, and he never mentions that there IS a next world.

So, should we try to bring about God's government for Israel - his economic, judicial and ritual worship system - all across the world?

That is what the Messianics and Judaizers are saying, though they don't seem to realize it. They are very impressed by all of that writing and "Law" of the Old Testament, and think that it must be applied to people today, that that's what God wants.

My problem with that whole line of thinking is that it is not true. God is always very clear about what he wants. He said what he wanted of Noah. He said what he wanted of Abraham and of Hagar also. He said what he wanted of Jacob. He said what he wanted of Moses and the Hebrews. And these were all different things, specific things. God gave Noah (and mankind) ALL animals to eat. He didn't promise they would be good for them, only that it was not a sin to eat them.

God did not make certain animals sinful for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob either. What did Abraham serve God and his angels? He served them meat and curds - meat and milk - an ABOMINATION under the Law of Moses! God and the angels ate the abomination. Was it abominable? NO! Because God hadn't made that law yet, and Abraham wasn't a Hebrew under that Law.

Jesus struck down the dietary laws for the New Covenant both when he lived, and when he lowered the sheet full of unclean animals to Peter before Peter went and baptized uncircumcised Gentile Romans - a warrior and his whole family (presumably including children). God told Peter to eat the unclean animals, and told him three times to not call unclean what God has made clean.

Now, I see Christians who really want to keep the Jewish law say that this had nothing to do with food. That is not true. It obviously has to do with food. It self-evidently, from the acts and the words, is all about God COMMANDING Peter to do what is forbidden under the Mosaic law, to eat "unclean" foods - foods that Jesus MADE clean - specifically to overtly demonstrate that he, as a Christian now, WAS NOT TO OBEY the old Mosaic Law wherever it departed from the Law of Jesus. And Peter was a Jew, so he WAS under the covenant.

So, when it comes down to it, the Law of Moses is not law at all, not for us. But it is still instructive. It still shows us how to bend our minds. And one of the most important things that it does is tell us how we should be spending our money, and how we should not be investing it.

Thanks for your reply, I would not really call our banter arguing, I prefer the term debate, I believe we have been rather respectful to each other. I would absolutely love to live by the Creators system, no interest to your family members, give homes back, set slaves free, the Shemita or year of jubilee. What a marvelous system it would be if we only lived by it, in the Kingdom we will. Unfortunately, we as humans, created our own system using our own understanding. Look at the mess we made, trying to control things, using greed as our beacon. Striving for numbers, everything numbers, in our businesses and in our churches. We count everything and we have forgotten God, forsaken our fear of Him. I guess, as Solomon said "nothing new under the sun." It grieves my spirit, I long for the day when we no longer are slaves to the system of man. However, one day per week I can hide from it, I can gather under His wing. That day is the Sabbath day my friend, for one day I am not a slave of the system of man, I can have a Holy convocation with our Creator. Even in Diaspora we can worship Him and we can keep our temple (our own bodies) from being defiled from unclean food. Daniel is a great example, he did not defile himself with the kings food, and he continued to worship contrary to the world at that time. I am grateful I live in USA and for now I am free to worship on the day I choose. Others in the world are not so fortunate they are persecuted for worshiping.

In response to some disagreements I have with your post, Noah brought into the arc 7 of every clean and 2 of every unclean so he knew the difference. We don't really know if what Abraham kept was different from the law of Moses, It just states that Abraham kept His commandments, His statutes and His charge. The milk and meat thing is a Jewish tradition, the law states not to boil a kid in his mothers milk, it does not have anything to do with cheeseburgers. As I understand the sheet sent down from heaven to Peter was about men not food. Even my kids bible app said it is about men.

I am sorry that you see Messianics as Judaizers. I think we are all just trying to help each other find truth, believe me, I have been clobbered with the book of Galatians more times than I can count, but I know in my heart that the people that clobber me with it are just trying to help.
 
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Serving Zion

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Sins as a basis is what causes harm to another. It literally means to "miss the mark" . The cultural commands related to diet are addressed in the New Testament Passages, what matters is what happens on the inside of a person.

What is the biblical definition of sin?
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 KJV Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4 NKJV Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4 NIV

Excellent point, especially concerning so called doing away with law.

Of course, Hebrews 7:12 says the law was changed; and Hebrews 7:19 says that what the believer now has is better than the law.

All I am doing is pointing out the flaw in reasoning thus:

1. God is holy, righteous, and unchanging;
2. The Law of Moses comes from God;
3. Therefore the Law of Moses has to be eternal.

There's a lot of discussion going on in this thread. I see this topic of sin and the gospel of salvation in Christ is fundamental to the OP. So, please permit me to contribute this comment not only for OP but for general edification, as I will try to show how all of these views actually come together, and you should all be finding agreement with each other.

Sin and Salvation


1. The eternal law of God is His expectation of righteousness, that defines when and why we may be permitted to His support against the devil (Revelation 12:10, Revelation 12:12, Psalms 23:4). The eternal law of God is the criteria by which we are determined righteous in His view (Isaiah 54:17).
2. God tests the heart (Jeremiah 17:10), and in doing so, His judgment considers circumstances and knowledge to determine whether the accused is truly culpable for their error, or whether they may be permitted some excuse due to ignorance (Luke 12:47-48, Jonah 3:10, Jonah 4:11).
3. There is no perfect person who does not make mistakes, because we begin with zero knowledge and we inherit corruption from a fallen world. Sometimes these mistakes include a decision to willfully sin, so in other words, we are not entitled to a concession for ignorance. A person who does this is convicted by God in light of the truth (Ephesians 5:13), and they must choose to repent otherwise face the indignation of God (John 3:18-20).
4. The purpose of Jesus' atoning sacrifice is for those who are brought to a point of eternal judgment whereby they are aware that their sin is demanding their life (Romans 6:23). At such a time, the devil rises up to destroy them (John 10:10, 1 John 5:19), and they have no legal claim to God's protection because their sins testify against them. A Christian chooses to enter a covenant with God in Jesus' name, becoming slaves belonging to Jesus Christ (John 15:15, John 10:29-30), because He has made a satisfactory payment to purchase them (1 Corinthians 6:20), and He pleads for us before God, seeing as we belong to Him and we live to serve Him (1 John 2:1).
5. A person who has entered this covenant with God is not entitled to any more waiver of sin though (Hebrews 10:26-27), and must remain in union with Christ until death (John 6:54-56). Hebrews 10:26-31 states that this covenant requires perfect repentance for the rest of our life. Repentance in this sense means to live a faithful relationship with God so that whenever the accuser is right and God requires us to be sorry and make adjustments, we do so lest we lose our righteous standing in God's view and instead incur the curse of Hebrews 10:27 and Hebrews 6:4-6. This is the mechanism of salvation through Jesus Christ, the reason why St. Paul wrote Hebrews 10:14.

Becoming Holy

Because the Jews have been dispersed among the nations for almost 2,000 years, their culture persecuted and largely lost, and also many Gentiles are entering the covenant of salvation through Jesus, the present reality is that everyone who comes into this covenant begins from a position of varying degrees of ignorance to God's law. A person who is leaving their worldly life for a godly life cannot be expected to suddenly be holy, but rather it is a gradual process of observing God's instruction, being sensitive to His judgments, learning to become the person that He really wants us to be. The instant change that we receive upon salvation is a new heart and mind, but we don't suddenly have a perfect personality, belief system or reputation. Those things take time to develop. (Ponder Psalms 119). However, because we are resolved to please Him in all matters, He accepts us and that makes us perfect for His purposes as we represent Him, because He is always able to correct us. Even if we should stumble and bring reproach upon Him, because we are willing to repent, He is able to use our humbleness to transform that reproach to His own glory. We are perfect for His purposes because we are being made holy (not because we are self-righteous).

Law vs. Faith

The ultimate goal is the same for those who follow law and those who live by faith: that we want to be found innocent of the transgression of God's law and acceptable in His sight.

Only, the real effect of living according to the prescribed letter of the law, is that we are always observing it in order to avoid being convicted. Whereas living by faith means that every law we learn to be true has been learned through divine instruction from God Himself (John 8:31-32, Jeremiah 31:33). We do not live to please our fellow man, but we live to please God (Matthew 6:1-2, Galatians 1:10). Because of this arrangement, (being accountable to the one who is perfect), when He prescribes to us the details of His law, then we are able to live that way willingly because He also teaches us that by doing so, it releases us from the bondage to sin and fully liberates us from the power that sin has! (1 Corinthians 15:55). This is why St. Paul emphasised Romans 14:4 all through his writing.

To live by faith is to exercise the law willingly, because we have learned that it truly liberates us to manifest the fruits of The Holy Spirit. This leads us to love God because He has granted us power over sin.

To live by law is to sacrifice our sin for fear of the consequences that the transgression would bring. This causes resentment because we are being deprived of our natural desires, and often our heart-felt understanding opposes the law because we chose to believe that the law is right before understanding why.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

.. OP, I notice that this answers most of your opening question, but the other part of the question asks why some Christians get all self-righteous, contentious and condemn those who don't behave the way they do on some particular issues. This probably mostly is due to having not received an accurate knowledge of the truth and therefore not living the Christian way, because certainly you seem to be describing fruits of the flesh.
 
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2consider

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Why is it that many Christians only cry 'legalism' when their favorite
sin comes up? Murder, lying, theft, sodomy; very few have a problem
believing they are still sins. But bring up pork or shrimp, or keeping
the correct Sabbath day, and they are instantly offended.
An interesting question. Of course Pork and Shrimp are Rabbinical laws. To most Christians, rabbinical laws cary about as much weight as the Pope does to Protestants.
My question is, why do people focus on all these individual sins? There are no varying degrees of sin to God. God objects to disobedience in any form. God understands, and we need to also, the same force that drives a person to lie is the same force that drives another to murder. It's this force called the sin nature that will do us all in. Unless of course we accept God's plan to survive this fate, which is understanding God's realm is perfect, if he allows any of us in, that would corrupt that perfection. Jesus makes us perfect.

If we can begin to see this, we could make real progress. If we all understood that we cannot complain about the sins of others, as if they are worse than ours than ours, we could ease many of our societal problems.

 
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faroukfarouk

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There's a lot of discussion going on in this thread. I see this topic of sin and the gospel of salvation in Christ is fundamental to the OP. So, please permit me to contribute this comment not only for OP but for general edification, as I will try to show how all of these views actually come together, and you should all be finding agreement with each other.

Sin and Salvation


1. The eternal law of God is His expectation of righteousness, that defines when and why we may be permitted to His support against the devil (Revelation 12:10, Revelation 12:12, Psalms 23:4). The eternal law of God is the criteria by which we are determined righteous in His view (Isaiah 54:17).
2. God tests the heart (Jeremiah 17:10), and in doing so, His judgment considers circumstances and knowledge to determine whether the accused is truly culpable for their error, or whether they may be permitted some excuse due to ignorance (Luke 12:47-48, Jonah 3:10, Jonah 4:11).
3. There is no perfect person who does not make mistakes, because we begin with zero knowledge and we inherit corruption from a fallen world. Sometimes these mistakes include a decision to willfully sin, so in other words, we are not entitled to a concession for ignorance. A person who does this is convicted by God in light of the truth (Ephesians 5:13), and they must choose to repent otherwise face the indignation of God (John 3:18-20).
4. The purpose of Jesus' atoning sacrifice is for those who are brought to a point of eternal judgment whereby they are aware that their sin is demanding their life (Romans 6:23). At such a time, the devil rises up to destroy them (John 10:10, 1 John 5:19), and they have no legal claim to God's protection because their sins testify against them. A Christian chooses to enter a covenant with God in Jesus' name, becoming slaves belonging to Jesus Christ (John 15:15, John 10:29-30), because He has made a satisfactory payment to purchase them (1 Corinthians 6:20), and He pleads for us before God, seeing as we belong to Him and we live to serve Him (1 John 2:1).
5. A person who has entered this covenant with God is not entitled to any more waiver of sin though (Hebrews 10:26-27), and must remain in union with Christ until death (John 6:54-56). Hebrews 10:26-31 states that this covenant requires perfect repentance for the rest of our life. Repentance in this sense means to live a faithful relationship with God so that whenever the accuser is right and God requires us to be sorry and make adjustments, we do so lest we lose our righteous standing in God's view and instead incur the curse of Hebrews 10:27 and Hebrews 6:4-6. This is the mechanism of salvation through Jesus Christ, the reason why St. Paul wrote Hebrews 10:14.

Becoming Holy

Because the Jews have been dispersed among the nations for almost 2,000 years, their culture persecuted and largely lost, and also many Gentiles are entering the covenant of salvation through Jesus, the present reality is that everyone who comes into this covenant begins from a position of varying degrees of ignorance to God's law. A person who is leaving their worldly life for a godly life cannot be expected to suddenly be holy, but rather it is a gradual process of observing God's instruction, being sensitive to His judgments, learning to become the person that He really wants us to be. The instant change that we receive upon salvation is a new heart and mind, but we don't suddenly have a perfect personality, belief system or reputation. Those things take time to develop. (Ponder Psalms 119). However, because we are resolved to please Him in all matters, He accepts us and that makes us perfect for His purposes as we represent Him, because He is always able to correct us. Even if we should stumble and bring reproach upon Him, because we are willing to repent, He is able to use our humbleness to transform that reproach to His own glory. We are perfect for His purposes because we are being made holy (not because we are self-righteous).

Law vs. Faith

The ultimate goal is the same for those who follow law and those who live by faith: that we want to be found innocent of the transgression of God's law and acceptable in His sight.

Only, the real effect of living according to the prescribed letter of the law, is that we are always observing it in order to avoid being convicted. Whereas living by faith means that every law we learn to be true has been learned through divine instruction from God Himself (John 8:31-32, Jeremiah 31:33). We do not live to please our fellow man, but we live to please God (Matthew 6:1-2, Galatians 1:10). Because of this arrangement, (being accountable to the one who is perfect), when He prescribes to us the details of His law, then we are able to live that way willingly because He also teaches us that by doing so, it releases us from the bondage to sin and fully liberates us from the power that sin has! (1 Corinthians 15:55). This is why St. Paul emphasised Romans 14:4 all through his writing.

To live by faith is to exercise the law willingly, because we have learned that it truly liberates us to manifest the fruits of The Holy Spirit. This leads us to love God because He has granted us power over sin.

To live by law is to sacrifice our sin for fear of the consequences that the transgression would bring. This causes resentment because we are being deprived of our natural desires, and often our heart-felt understanding opposes the law because we chose to believe that the law is right before understanding why.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

.. OP, I notice that this answers most of your opening question, but the other part of the question asks why some Christians get all self-righteous, contentious and condemn those who don't behave the way they do on some particular issues. This probably mostly is due to having not received an accurate knowledge of the truth and therefore not living the Christian way, because certainly you seem to be describing fruits of the flesh.
Pardon me if I missed something, but my previous references to Hebrews 7.12 and Hebrews 7.19 do not seem to be addressed. In any case, my reading of Romans and Galatians is that I am under grace, not law.
 
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tatteredsoul

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An interesting question. Of course Pork and Shrimp are Rabbinical laws. To most Christians, rabbinical laws cary about as much weight as the Pope does to Protestants.
My question is, why do people focus on all these individual sins? There are no varying degrees of sin to God. God objects to disobedience in any form. God understands, and we need to also, the same force that drives a person to lie is the same force that drives another to murder. It's this force called the sin nature that will do us all in. Unless of course we accept God's plan to survive this fate, which is understanding God's realm is perfect, if he allows any of us in, that would corrupt that perfection. Jesus makes us perfect.

If we can begin to see this, we could make real progress. If we all understood that we cannot complain about the sins of others, as if they are worse than ours than ours, we could ease many of our societal problems.


I would say people focus on these individual sins because many churches and denominations still judge their congregation on these things.

For example, hw can you be against homosexuality while eating a bacon-wrapped shrimp skewer? The commandment against them both come from the same book.

Why is incest wrong but wearing mixed woolens is right?

And so on...


These are the words of God people choose and pick, not the words of Moses. It was God who said not to eat this, not to wear that, to celebrate these days, and to honor in this way.

For a lot of people it becomes a problem of hypocrisy. None of the "legalists" I know think that following the law will vindicate them. Out of obedience - for whatever starts with, "The Lord God said/commanded..." - they follow [as much of] all the Law as they can and repent when they fall short.

There was no law given that is null or void. Heaven and earth have not passed away, so the law of God as aforementioned by Him is still in effect.

Christ did not change the law, and fulfillment does not mean nullification and removal. Christ fulfilled the law because He did 100% obedience to God, and fulfilled prophecies.

Also, no matter how tasty something is, it still may not be proper for human consumption. The health and food laws were more than just about regional selectivity.
 
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1John2:4

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There's a lot of discussion going on in this thread. I see this topic of sin and the gospel of salvation in Christ is fundamental to the OP. So, please permit me to contribute this comment not only for OP but for general edification, as I will try to show how all of these views actually come together, and you should all be finding agreement with each other.

Sin and Salvation


1. The eternal law of God is His expectation of righteousness, that defines when and why we may be permitted to His support against the devil (Revelation 12:10, Revelation 12:12, Psalms 23:4). The eternal law of God is the criteria by which we are determined righteous in His view (Isaiah 54:17).
2. God tests the heart (Jeremiah 17:10), and in doing so, His judgment considers circumstances and knowledge to determine whether the accused is truly culpable for their error, or whether they may be permitted some excuse due to ignorance (Luke 12:47-48, Jonah 3:10, Jonah 4:11).
3. There is no perfect person who does not make mistakes, because we begin with zero knowledge and we inherit corruption from a fallen world. Sometimes these mistakes include a decision to willfully sin, so in other words, we are not entitled to a concession for ignorance. A person who does this is convicted by God in light of the truth (Ephesians 5:13), and they must choose to repent otherwise face the indignation of God (John 3:18-20).
4. The purpose of Jesus' atoning sacrifice is for those who are brought to a point of eternal judgment whereby they are aware that their sin is demanding their life (Romans 6:23). At such a time, the devil rises up to destroy them (John 10:10, 1 John 5:19), and they have no legal claim to God's protection because their sins testify against them. A Christian chooses to enter a covenant with God in Jesus' name, becoming slaves belonging to Jesus Christ (John 15:15, John 10:29-30), because He has made a satisfactory payment to purchase them (1 Corinthians 6:20), and He pleads for us before God, seeing as we belong to Him and we live to serve Him (1 John 2:1).
5. A person who has entered this covenant with God is not entitled to any more waiver of sin though (Hebrews 10:26-27), and must remain in union with Christ until death (John 6:54-56). Hebrews 10:26-31 states that this covenant requires perfect repentance for the rest of our life. Repentance in this sense means to live a faithful relationship with God so that whenever the accuser is right and God requires us to be sorry and make adjustments, we do so lest we lose our righteous standing in God's view and instead incur the curse of Hebrews 10:27 and Hebrews 6:4-6. This is the mechanism of salvation through Jesus Christ, the reason why St. Paul wrote Hebrews 10:14.

Becoming Holy

Because the Jews have been dispersed among the nations for almost 2,000 years, their culture persecuted and largely lost, and also many Gentiles are entering the covenant of salvation through Jesus, the present reality is that everyone who comes into this covenant begins from a position of varying degrees of ignorance to God's law. A person who is leaving their worldly life for a godly life cannot be expected to suddenly be holy, but rather it is a gradual process of observing God's instruction, being sensitive to His judgments, learning to become the person that He really wants us to be. The instant change that we receive upon salvation is a new heart and mind, but we don't suddenly have a perfect personality, belief system or reputation. Those things take time to develop. (Ponder Psalms 119). However, because we are resolved to please Him in all matters, He accepts us and that makes us perfect for His purposes as we represent Him, because He is always able to correct us. Even if we should stumble and bring reproach upon Him, because we are willing to repent, He is able to use our humbleness to transform that reproach to His own glory. We are perfect for His purposes because we are being made holy (not because we are self-righteous).

Law vs. Faith

The ultimate goal is the same for those who follow law and those who live by faith: that we want to be found innocent of the transgression of God's law and acceptable in His sight.

Only, the real effect of living according to the prescribed letter of the law, is that we are always observing it in order to avoid being convicted. Whereas living by faith means that every law we learn to be true has been learned through divine instruction from God Himself (John 8:31-32, Jeremiah 31:33). We do not live to please our fellow man, but we live to please God (Matthew 6:1-2, Galatians 1:10). Because of this arrangement, (being accountable to the one who is perfect), when He prescribes to us the details of His law, then we are able to live that way willingly because He also teaches us that by doing so, it releases us from the bondage to sin and fully liberates us from the power that sin has! (1 Corinthians 15:55). This is why St. Paul emphasised Romans 14:4 all through his writing.

To live by faith is to exercise the law willingly, because we have learned that it truly liberates us to manifest the fruits of The Holy Spirit. This leads us to love God because He has granted us power over sin.

To live by law is to sacrifice our sin for fear of the consequences that the transgression would bring. This causes resentment because we are being deprived of our natural desires, and often our heart-felt understanding opposes the law because we chose to believe that the law is right before understanding why.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

.. OP, I notice that this answers most of your opening question, but the other part of the question asks why some Christians get all self-righteous, contentious and condemn those who don't behave the way they do on some particular issues. This probably mostly is due to having not received an accurate knowledge of the truth and therefore not living the Christian way, because certainly you seem to be describing fruits of the flesh.
Great post, the only thing I want to point out is if we are being lead by the spirit, it cannot be in opposition to the law because the law is spirit, we must test all things to the Word.
 
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tatteredsoul

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Pardon me if I missed something, but my previous references to Hebrews 7.12 and Hebrews 7.19 do not seem to be addressed. In any case, my reading of Romans and Galatians is that I am under grace, not law.

It probably wasn't addressed because there is a very thin line of understanding the difference between a "legalist" who follows God''s law looking to vindicate himself and his salvation, and someone who does it out of obedience without expecting salvation as a reward for that obedience.

Many threads of insult have existed based on this very common misunderstanding. As I said, most "legalists" do not believe following the law of God will vindicate you and justify your salvation. They know faith in Christ, and His work (as well as leading a righteous life in repentance and prayer) is what justifies your salvation.

Some people who are champions of throwing the OT lawbook out don't believe this, and verbally scourge anyone who has the audacity to suggest we are to follow God''s commandments - other than the LOVE commandment(s) of Christ.

Then, you have the other side of the coin of people who think that people who claim to be under grace are lawless, and are floating on deceptive misunderstanding of grace - pointing out that not following God''s law from the OT is foolish and spiritually dismissive.

There have been too many "Sabbath," "The 10 Commandments are done away," and "Legalism is of the devil" threads (maybe not the last one...) on these forums. Neither side really gets the other because their points are antithetical.
 
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Serving Zion

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Pardon me if I missed something, but my previous references to Hebrews 7.12 and Hebrews 7.19 do not seem to be addressed. In any case, my reading of Romans and Galatians is that I am under grace, not law.
Not at all! I think that you have simply not expected my motive to be so innocent :) I did not intend to oppose you, nor enter a discussion in this forum where it is not permitted. Rather, I offered clarification of the gospel as an attempt to show that there is really unity behind a number of diverse views here that are being presented as though they are opposed, with yours included.

What I would say for you about this, is that I agree our salvation is by grace, whereby we stay attentive to His daily instruction, and He should lead us to willingly express the law more and more. Eventually, that path leads us to observe the Sabbath and other behaviors common to a holy people, if that is the fruit that The Father wishes to produce in us. (eg John 15:1-2).

It probably wasn't addressed because there is a very thin line of understanding the difference between a "legalist" who follows God''s law looking to vindicate himself and his salvation, and someone who does it out of obedience without expecting salvation as a reward for that obedience.

No, this actually was addressed:

Only, the real effect of living according to the prescribed letter of the law, is that we are always observing it in order to avoid being convicted. Whereas living by faith means that every law we learn to be true has been learned through divine instruction from God Himself (John 8:31-32, Jeremiah 31:33). We do not live to please our fellow man, but we live to please God (Matthew 6:1-2, Galatians 1:10). Because of this arrangement, (being accountable to the one who is perfect), when He prescribes to us the details of His law, then we are able to live that way willingly because He also teaches us that by doing so, it releases us from the bondage to sin and fully liberates us from the power that sin has! (1 Corinthians 15:55). This is why St. Paul emphasised Romans 14:4 all through his writing.

To live by faith is to exercise the law willingly, because we have learned that it truly liberates us to manifest the fruits of The Holy Spirit. This leads us to love God because He has granted us power over sin.

To live by law is to sacrifice our sin for fear of the consequences that the transgression would bring. This causes resentment because we are being deprived of our natural desires, and often our heart-felt understanding opposes the law because we chose to believe that the law is right before understanding why.
 
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