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Why is it OK to indoctrinate children?

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Jane_Doe

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Let me start by saying that I've never, not even once, seen the indoctrination of children explained to be a bad thing by any Christian. I've never seen one Christian rebuke another for the practice. In fact I don't even know if I've ever even seen a Christian even address this issue at all, apart from perhaps 1.) when a Christian is questioned on it by an atheist, or 2.) when a Christian remarks that someone is not raising their children properly (seeming to indicate a pro-indoctrination stance).

Therefore I will assume, until told otherwise, that all Christians are of the persuasion that indoctrination of children is acceptable. I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable.

I also am curious as to why this practice is necessary, since, if we suppose that Christianity is the one true religion, there should be no dire need to perpetuate the religion by means of indoctrinating young minds. Christianity, supposing it is true, will withstand the furious scrutiny of any academic nonbeliever, so there is no threat of extinction looming over it. Furthermore, indoctrination should be unnecessary simply because either 1.) apologetics suffices to convince any rational person, or 2.) the Holy Spirit will reach out to everyone, or at least to those who are called, and since this comes from God it will be more effective than human means (indoctrination, apologetics, etc).

I understand that paternal instinct implores one to protect one's children, and in this case the parent is protecting the child from eternal hellfire, but indoctrination is only successful if it stamps out the freedom of choice in the child. This, to me, seems to be a way of telling God that he is doing it wrong because, apart from Calvanists, free will is more or less a staple doctrine. But even the Calvanists must admit that indoctrination is pointless since indoctrination of a child who is not chosen by God will not result in the child being saved whereas failure to indoctrinate a chosen child will do no harm to the child's salvation.

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

I have a 2 year old. I spend lots of my day indoctrinating her in things. Today we had a lesson in how it is wrong to... suffice it say we had a lesson in potty hygiene. I have never had another Christian or non-Christian rebuke me for teaching her potty hygiene. Yes, you may assume that most people think that indoctrination of my child is acceptable. I also indoctrinate her in sharing, doing her chores, saying her prayers, and using her inside voice.

You ask: "I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable."
I reply: ????? Are you suggesting that I don't teach my child?????

You ask: "I also am curious as to why this practice is necessary, since, if we suppose that Christianity is the one true religion, there should be no dire need to perpetuate the religion by means of indoctrinating young minds."
I reply: Does the fact that something is true somehow negate the responsibility of a parent to teach it?? Would you likewise suggest that because potty hygiene is true importance that I would not need to teach it?

You ask: "I understand that paternal instinct implores one to protect one's children, and in this case the parent is protecting the child from eternal hellfire, but indoctrination is only successful if it stamps out the freedom of choice in the child."
I reply: Does me indoctrinating my 2 year old in potty hygiene stamp out her freedom of choice? Or me indoctrinating her in sharing? Or not hitting? No, teaching does not stamp out freedom of choice. (An no, there is no motivation of avoiding Hellfire).

You ask:So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.
I reply: Because it is a parent's responsibility to teach. In fact, I would say that you very much agree with me, and that you honestly endorse indoctrinating of children as well. You just don't like people teaching Christianity because you don't like Christianity.
 
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Soyeong

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We are getting off topic to the point that I don't care if you're right about anything you have said. Do you have anything to say about the actual topic?

We indoctrinate our children because we think it is to their benefit to know certain things to be true. The vast majority of people support teaching our children in the way that we think they should go, so there is a good reason why you haven't seen many people talk about it as though it were innately a bad thing. Were people tend to object is not in regard to whether to teach children, but were children are taught something that they don't agree with. For example, Creationists are fine with teaching their position but don't want their children indoctrinated with Evolution. Even the idea that it is good to teach multiple sides of an issue is itself something that we have been indoctrinated with.
 
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ScottA

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Let me start by saying that I've never, not even once, seen the indoctrination of children explained to be a bad thing by any Christian. I've never seen one Christian rebuke another for the practice. In fact I don't even know if I've ever even seen a Christian even address this issue at all, apart from perhaps 1.) when a Christian is questioned on it by an atheist, or 2.) when a Christian remarks that someone is not raising their children properly (seeming to indicate a pro-indoctrination stance).

Therefore I will assume, until told otherwise, that all Christians are of the persuasion that indoctrination of children is acceptable. I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable.

I also am curious as to why this practice is necessary, since, if we suppose that Christianity is the one true religion, there should be no dire need to perpetuate the religion by means of indoctrinating young minds. Christianity, supposing it is true, will withstand the furious scrutiny of any academic nonbeliever, so there is no threat of extinction looming over it. Furthermore, indoctrination should be unnecessary simply because either 1.) apologetics suffices to convince any rational person, or 2.) the Holy Spirit will reach out to everyone, or at least to those who are called, and since this comes from God it will be more effective than human means (indoctrination, apologetics, etc).

I understand that paternal instinct implores one to protect one's children, and in this case the parent is protecting the child from eternal hellfire, but indoctrination is only successful if it stamps out the freedom of choice in the child. This, to me, seems to be a way of telling God that he is doing it wrong because, apart from Calvanists, free will is more or less a staple doctrine. But even the Calvanists must admit that indoctrination is pointless since indoctrination of a child who is not chosen by God will not result in the child being saved whereas failure to indoctrinate a chosen child will do no harm to the child's salvation.

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.
First of all, "indoctrination" is the wrong word to describe the typical Christian practice. The word seems to carry a negative connotation, or worse, a prejudice, and at best, a misunderstanding, as if the intent were to brainwash our children. All of which is wrong.

Based on all that you have said, I would have to conclude that your position is either a prejudice or a misunderstanding.

So, what is it actually? Something waaaay more innocent and natural. It should be considered a simple and normal human practice to hand down tradition to the next generation...not really a religions thing at all. And yet, Jews and Christians are in fact, instructed by God to "raise up their children in the way they should go." But even on a practical level, ALL parents want better for their children than they had, and are good to guide their children in the way of good and away from danger.

So....if stated properly, the question would be: Why do Christians care about their children and guide them accordingly? And the answer is: Because it is good.
 
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radioTint

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From the Sh'ma, recited by observant Jews twice a day (sometimes once more at bedtime - kriat sh'ma) and more importantly for us, part of the greatest commandment given which Jesus references in Matthew 22:34-40.

Deuteronomy 6:7
…6"These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up." (NASB)

The laws spoken of are: love your God with all your heart and love your neighbors as yourself. That's the core message of Christianity. As was once said regarding this, "The rest is commentary; go and study."
 
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Uber Genius

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Liberalism is more associated with critical thinking skills, the opposite of indoctrination.
I don't think the poster was referring to "classically liberal" which would be closer to libertarian.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are endowed by a creator with certain unalienable rights."

The Founding Fathers thought that government must serve the people because people are created in God's image.

It will be impossible for you to extricated Christians from rationality, science, philosophy, and education in the West as they dominate all of it from the fall of the Roman Empire to the 19th century.

Further, why called indoctrination?

His seems like a rhetorical (pronounced "propagandistic") strategy common to the New Atheist.

The point is to get the opponent (the Christian parent) to accept such a poisoned term! And no more work need to be done to convince the weak-minded whether they be on the fence atheist or dies in the wool.

Do we live on an external world? Prove it.

Do we believe in other minds (that other people exist besides ourselves)? Prove it.

Do we believe in the reality of the past? prove it.

These and the very presuppositions that logic is based on are not provable. And unless we adjust our epistemic justification level (what we count as provable) we are going to have nothing to teach our children whatsoever!

So to your question why do we need to teach if it is true?

You seem to think religious knowledge is obtained through some sort of osmosis.

Much mathematical knowledge is true so why do we teach math? Science, history, literature.

Obviously because we are beings that are able to scaffold knowledge over time to more accurately describe the external world around us. It can take decades to get from basic addition to a quantum mechanical description of the small-scale forces of our universe.

There are a dozen theories or so floating about the QM world. Suppose I teach the Copenhagen model, to my high school senior who is taking an AP Physics coarse. Am I indoctrinating him or her?

Of coarse not. As a parent, regardless of religious ideology, one tries to advance the child's way in the world by given them the most true beliefs and fewest false ones.

With theism and particularlyJudeo-Christian religions, God's existence, best explains:
1 - the evidence for the beginning of he universe from nothing 13.7 billion years ago,

2 - the fine-tuning of the initial constants and laws to support life

3 - the existence of objective (culturally independent) morals,

4 - the nature of my soul or consciousness being immaterial

5 - the universal desire for meaning and purpose humans have.

There are many other inferences to the best explanation of the external world we see that are experienced by Christians such as miracles and certain types of evil, and profound experiences of God.

As to your point of seeing Christian complain that others aren't raising their children properly, (those pesky Christian butinskis) did you miss the fact that your whole post is you telling all Christians "how to raise their kids." Was this meant to be a test to see if we could spot hypocrisy?

As to apologetics and the work of the HS one wonders given your track record above how sincere you are. But the apologetics is considered useful when people have certain rational limitations that are trapping them into a false internal construction of the world. So helping people eliminate false beliefs, such as the false belief that there is no God, is as simple a question to answers as the question I alluded to earlier, "why teach math?"

If someone let's say Larry Krauss, says "the universe came from nothing, and I can prove it, nothing is a vacuum, there was a high-energy state, in a false vacuum (see I used the word vacuum) can produces Higgs particles fluctuating into and out of existence, therefore the universe created itself."
(a universe forNothing)

Apologetics can point out that Krauss' "Nothing," includes space, time, QM laws, a false vacuum, and high-energy states that are unstable.

Nothing means -having no (zero) attributes.

Using apologetics we can apply rationality to claims that the evidence point to need for something like God (Eternal, all-powerful, all-knowledgable, and personal (due to agency) is actually self-starting. Without apologetics, we would be unable to expose this argument as fallacious.

So we are just defending the inference that God best explains the external world we have.

Similarly the HS function qua non-Christians is to reveal knowledge that they are morally defective in a significant way (guilty of not meeting God's sand are, namely perfection MT 5:48) and that Jesus' death on the cross is God's only answer to our moral dilemma. That is it. The HS does these functions in largely unknown ways. Again, no osmosis knowledge here.

But your osmosis view is not without intuition. God does reveal something's about himself for everyone to perceive sans apologetics, indoctrination, or even H.S.

1. Certain universal moral values and duties. (Death camps are wrong)
2. The beauty and awe of nature points to God's existence and creativity.
3. Circumstances that create instant overwhelming fear of death ( fox holes being shelled by the enemy)

Birth of children are also often in this category. So you are right to bring up osmosis as a category, you have just extended that notion too far, that's all.

Hope this response helps and is on track in the info you were looking to receive.
 
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buzuxi02

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All children are indoctrinated, it's how they learn. Likewise all adults are conditioned by their environment and their interactions with those in that environment. This is why country music is popular in one part of the country and rap in another. It's why some people are die hard Chevy guys while others are Ford guys and why many Asians (and younger people) are into Tuners.
 
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Church2u2

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It is a normal part of parenting to raise your children with the values you believe to be correct. Hence even liberal parents indoctrinate their children (with liberalism).
Yes I agree with that. We parents do tend to raise our children with the values that we believe in and then when they leave the nest and hit real life most of what we've taught them is sucked out by the cares of the world. I'm a christian so I try to teach my kids christian values to the best of my ability but I also try to teach them about the world.What I mean by the world is that life isn't always going to line up with what scripture says because not everyone is a christian.I try to prepare my sons for that.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Let me start by saying that I've never, not even once, seen the indoctrination of children explained to be a bad thing by any Christian. I've never seen one Christian rebuke another for the practice. In fact I don't even know if I've ever even seen a Christian even address this issue at all, apart from perhaps 1.) when a Christian is questioned on it by an atheist, or 2.) when a Christian remarks that someone is not raising their children properly (seeming to indicate a pro-indoctrination stance).

Therefore I will assume, until told otherwise, that all Christians are of the persuasion that indoctrination of children is acceptable. I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable.

I also am curious as to why this practice is necessary, since, if we suppose that Christianity is the one true religion, there should be no dire need to perpetuate the religion by means of indoctrinating young minds. Christianity, supposing it is true, will withstand the furious scrutiny of any academic nonbeliever, so there is no threat of extinction looming over it. Furthermore, indoctrination should be unnecessary simply because either 1.) apologetics suffices to convince any rational person, or 2.) the Holy Spirit will reach out to everyone, or at least to those who are called, and since this comes from God it will be more effective than human means (indoctrination, apologetics, etc).

I understand that paternal instinct implores one to protect one's children, and in this case the parent is protecting the child from eternal hellfire, but indoctrination is only successful if it stamps out the freedom of choice in the child. This, to me, seems to be a way of telling God that he is doing it wrong because, apart from Calvanists, free will is more or less a staple doctrine. But even the Calvanists must admit that indoctrination is pointless since indoctrination of a child who is not chosen by God will not result in the child being saved whereas failure to indoctrinate a chosen child will do no harm to the child's salvation.

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.
Matthew 28.19 contains the Lord Jesus' instruction, known as the Great Commission, to 'make disciples/teach' all nations' and it begins at home.

I know secularists will complain about anyone who teaches Christianity to someone not yet a Christian, but then will see no problem at all with the idea of people - especially children - being indoctrinated with secularism in school, often against their parents' wishes; frankly, this mindset baffles me.
 
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Rescued One

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The Bible tells us to teach our children about the Lord and the way of truth. My parents didn't do that. My four living siblings are atheists. All children learn from their parents. Some learn to hate people who are different. Some become bullies. Some have no supervision and either learn to follow their parents' examples or find friends with the same type of uncaring parents. I don't think most Christian parents talk about hell; many focus on how to love God and others.

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
1 John 4:20
 
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zippy2006

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Let me start by saying that I've never, not even once, seen the indoctrination of children explained to be a bad thing by any Christian. I've never seen one Christian rebuke another for the practice. In fact I don't even know if I've ever even seen a Christian even address this issue at all, apart from perhaps 1.) when a Christian is questioned on it by an atheist, or 2.) when a Christian remarks that someone is not raising their children properly (seeming to indicate a pro-indoctrination stance).

Therefore I will assume, until told otherwise, that all Christians are of the persuasion that indoctrination of children is acceptable. I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable.

I also am curious as to why this practice is necessary, since, if we suppose that Christianity is the one true religion, there should be no dire need to perpetuate the religion by means of indoctrinating young minds. Christianity, supposing it is true, will withstand the furious scrutiny of any academic nonbeliever, so there is no threat of extinction looming over it. Furthermore, indoctrination should be unnecessary simply because either 1.) apologetics suffices to convince any rational person, or 2.) the Holy Spirit will reach out to everyone, or at least to those who are called, and since this comes from God it will be more effective than human means (indoctrination, apologetics, etc).

I understand that paternal instinct implores one to protect one's children, and in this case the parent is protecting the child from eternal hellfire, but indoctrination is only successful if it stamps out the freedom of choice in the child. This, to me, seems to be a way of telling God that he is doing it wrong because, apart from Calvanists, free will is more or less a staple doctrine. But even the Calvanists must admit that indoctrination is pointless since indoctrination of a child who is not chosen by God will not result in the child being saved whereas failure to indoctrinate a chosen child will do no harm to the child's salvation.

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

Parent loves child; parent believes religion to be important and useful; parent teachings religion to child. It's not much harder than that.
 
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DingDing

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Therefore I will assume, until told otherwise, that all Christians are of the persuasion that indoctrination of children is acceptable. I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable.

Because if you don't, someone else will.

I also am curious as to why this practice is necessary, since, if we suppose that Christianity is the one true religion, there should be no dire need to perpetuate the religion by means of indoctrinating young minds. ...

Because if you don't, someone else will.

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

Because if you don't, someone else will.

So, any more questions, or shall I repeat?
 
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Kersh

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I believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I believe that people who come to believe this are blessed as a result. In order for a person to earnestly decide to believe something, that person must first have a certain level of understanding of the topic.

I love my children, and I want them to be blessed. Therefore, I want them to believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. So, I teach them enough about Jesus to allow them to come to sufficient understanding of the Gospel to be able to make a decision as to whether they believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

If this is indoctrination, in your opinion, then I would have to concede that I am who supports indoctrination of children. But, I would argue that, if that is the case, any parent who holds to any belief system (whether spiritual, materialist, philosophical, or otherwise) and teaches that belief system to their children, supports indoctrination. And, if that is the case, I don't know that I have met a parent of any religion or lack thereof, who loves his or her children, who does not engage in this type of "indoctrination".

If this does not constitute, in your definition of the term, "indoctrination", then I think your premise (i.e., that all Christians seem to support indoctrination) is flawed.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I believe that people who come to believe this are blessed as a result. In order for a person to earnestly decide to believe something, that person must first have a certain level of understanding of the topic.

I love my children, and I want them to be blessed. Therefore, I want them to believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. So, I teach them enough about Jesus to allow them to come to sufficient understanding of the Gospel to be able to make a decision as to whether they believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

If this is indoctrination, in your opinion, then I would have to concede that I am who supports indoctrination of children. But, I would argue that, if that is the case, any parent who holds to any belief system (whether spiritual, materialist, philosophical, or otherwise) and teaches that belief system to their children, supports indoctrination. And, if that is the case, I don't know that I have met a parent of any religion or lack thereof, who loves his or her children, who does not engage in this type of "indoctrination".

If this does not constitute, in your definition of the term, "indoctrination", then I think your premise (i.e., that all Christians seem to support indoctrination) is flawed.
Well, exactly.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Liberalism is more associated with critical thinking skills, the opposite of indoctrination.

It's only indoctrination when the other guy does it.

As both a Christian and a liberal I intend to raise my children--should I ever have any--with those values which I believe are important: being kind to others, respecting people of all different kinds regardless of sex, race, or orientation, etc.

If you have no intention on instilling certain values in your children and to simply let them do anything they want without any correction, parenting, or teaching well that's certainly innovative on your part, but then I suppose you can criticize everyone else for "indoctrinating" since everyone else is under the position that becoming a healthy, functioning member of human society involves being taught how to play well with others, being a decent person, etc. Whether religious or not.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

Name a form of parenting that doesn't involve "indoctrination".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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nChrist

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Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Christians share the Gospel of the Grace of God with total strangers because we love them and care about their eternal destination. Surely we love our own children as much or more. Regardless, God's Word makes it clear this is the duty of a Christian mother and father.

 
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faroukfarouk

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Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)

6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Christians share the Gospel of the Grace of God with total strangers because we love them and care about their eternal destination. Surely we love our own children as much or more. Regardless, God's Word makes it clear this is the duty of a Christian mother and father.
This is exactly true.
 
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