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Belief in a closet monster is not indicative of unsound reasoning. That is an empirical issue. There might be some universe that has closet monsters.
Also, a child's disposition to these types of fears is the exact reason that it is unethical to instill the fear of eternal damnation into a young mind. Exploitation of children is wrong.
I would be happy to,assist.
So why is it wrong for me to murder Johnny? I doubt you can provide an explanation that fits into a 5-year-old's understanding of the world.
Why? You're saying that atheists who raise moral, productive members of society haven't properly performed their parental duty?
So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.
I'm sorry if I still don't understand exactly what you mean by indoctrination, I needed an example or something; but reading your comments throughout the post I think I may have it now. I would like to say that from my experience as a teacher and pastor very few, if any, parents would hear a rebuke against indoctrination. Their motivations are often emotional not rational, based on their own experiences of indoctrination either with parents or the faith community, and often reinforced by a theological perceptive that is too self-reliant. They want what they think is best for their children and to do what they are commanded to do by scripture. This is evidenced by many of the replies you received.
Why is it necessary? Fear. You discussed one kind of fear that their children might go to hell, but there are many others. I have heard parents say that they chose a particular church because their children want to go there even though they themselves are nurtured somewhere else. Or this church has a great child or youth program, so we are going there for the kids. Basically, the parents are afraid their children will be unhappy and drop out or that their needs will not met or they will not date the "right" kind of people. These parents rarely hear that it is their spiritual growth and needs that need to be met first and to trust their children to God.
It is often acceptable because it is easier than authenticity. To follow Jesus is not spouting Bible verses to prove a point or rigid rules, it is radical, counter-cultural, risk taking. To take up your cross and follow Jesus means that nothing and no one (including your spouse and children) have your love and attention before God. Children, like adults, learn best by example. But when Christians fail to worship only God and to love one another they are afraid and force feeding becomes necessary.
I think for any sincere believer it is not just OK to indoctrinate their kids. It's their absolute duty and a righteous thing before God.
.... What a tragedy!!!
Then either you don't bother to look or to listen. It's really very simple. I am a person, you are a person. As such, you deserve the same respect I do...and your race, belief (or lack), sexual orientation, gender identification, immigration status don't matter. Unlike some "Christians" who think that respect is predicated on whether or not you are judged to be "worthy"...IOW, if you're a minority, illegal immigrant, gay, not Christian, transgender, poor, etc. you don't deserve to be treated decently.
Personally, the most moral people I've ever met were NOT Christians.
"The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector." (Luke 18:11)
At 5 years old, a succinct "because it is wrong" should suffice. Failing that, the threat of going to jail should work. Kids can and do grow up to be moral beings without religion. As I said above, when you remove the outer governor on behavior and develop SELF control (which is one of those "fruit of the spirit) things, you don't need an outside push not to behave a certain way.
Hey, I know this is a divisive issue. Personally my kids go to sunday school, but they do come up with some really cute questions about the Bible. Especially the murdering children in the OT and David wearing foreskin on his neck. So sweet, that our little munchkins can learn the holy word of YHWH.
Do that many 5 year olds actually ask why they can't murder people?
And I'm fine with that. Like I said, introduce your kid to a child's version of the Bible, tell them the gist of it, and then let the Holy Spirit guide them as they read it. If they have questions or doubts, do your best to answer. Doing more than this is just a lack of faith in the Holy Spirit, in my opinion.
So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.
Let me start by saying that I've never, not even once, seen the indoctrination of children explained to be a bad thing by any Christian. I've never seen one Christian rebuke another for the practice. In fact I don't even know if I've ever even seen a Christian even address this issue at all, apart from perhaps 1.) when a Christian is questioned on it by an atheist, or 2.) when a Christian remarks that someone is not raising their children properly (seeming to indicate a pro-indoctrination stance).
Therefore I will assume, until told otherwise, that all Christians are of the persuasion that indoctrination of children is acceptable. I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable.
I also am curious as to why this practice is necessary, since, if we suppose that Christianity is the one true religion, there should be no dire need to perpetuate the religion by means of indoctrinating young minds. Christianity, supposing it is true, will withstand the furious scrutiny of any academic nonbeliever, so there is no threat of extinction looming over it. Furthermore, indoctrination should be unnecessary simply because either 1.) apologetics suffices to convince any rational person, or 2.) the Holy Spirit will reach out to everyone, or at least to those who are called, and since this comes from God it will be more effective than human means (indoctrination, apologetics, etc).
I understand that paternal instinct implores one to protect one's children, and in this case the parent is protecting the child from eternal hellfire, but indoctrination is only successful if it stamps out the freedom of choice in the child. This, to me, seems to be a way of telling God that he is doing it wrong because, apart from Calvanists, free will is more or less a staple doctrine. But even the Calvanists must admit that indoctrination is pointless since indoctrination of a child who is not chosen by God will not result in the child being saved whereas failure to indoctrinate a chosen child will do no harm to the child's salvation.
So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.
This must be a joke. I hope.
I would not send any child to a Sunday School like that.
So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.
I'm sorry if I still don't understand exactly what you mean by indoctrination, I needed an example or something; but reading your comments throughout the post I think I may have it now. I would like to say that from my experience as a teacher and pastor very few, if any, parents would hear a rebuke against indoctrination. Their motivations are often emotional not rational, based on their own experiences of indoctrination either with parents or the faith community, and often reinforced by a theological perceptive that is too self-reliant. They want what they think is best for their children and to do what they are commanded to do by scripture. This is evidenced by many of the replies you received.
Why is it necessary? Fear. You discussed one kind of fear that their children might go to hell, but there are many others. I have heard parents say that they chose a particular church because their children want to go there even though they themselves are nurtured somewhere else. Or this church has a great child or youth program, so we are going there for the kids. Basically, the parents are afraid their children will be unhappy and drop out or that their needs will not met or they will not date the "right" kind of people. These parents rarely hear that it is their spiritual growth and needs that need to be met first and to trust their children to God.
It is often acceptable because it is easier than authenticity. To follow Jesus is not spouting Bible verses to prove a point or rigid rules, it is radical, counter-cultural, risk taking. To take up your cross and follow Jesus means that nothing and no one (including your spouse and children) have your love and attention before God. Children, like adults, learn best by example. But when Christians fail to worship only God and to love one another they are afraid and force feeding becomes necessary.
While I agree with the general notion that the Holy Spirit is supposed to play some role in the propagation of the Christian tradition as a handful of the things the writers of the New Testament suggests, I would also say that they don't discount that a portion of the role of the Holy Spirit is to be dispensed through the various gifts and agencies of the Church.
Hence, Christian parents, like Jewish parents of old, are a part of God's collective people, and are therefore charged with delivering some portion of God's "info" to the children.
WOW. Just wow.
After many days at christianforums.com, finally one post from a Christian that actually makes sense! Your students and church people must be very lucky.
Your reply is honest and shows understanding of yhe simple message of Jesus. Amazing! Why is it so rare to see in churches and in faith?
May I ask you a hard question. Can you even for a second imagine that the Bible is wrong? Not in its entirety, obviously, but in some of its important teachings? In that case, would it be good to influence children to learn and believe it?
That is, do you think it is morally right or good to impose something as truth to children? Is it not a better way perhaps to try and be honest and say, this is what I believe in, but it's okay to think otherwise? If it's possible at all. To try and present knowledge most objectively, in a non-biased way?
Not indoctrination, but rather informing about all versions of explaining life, people, the world - allowing the possibility to chose what to believe in?
That is, giving them a complete freedom in choosing their believes and life path. No imposing. No indoctrination. Objective, balanced, wise, unprejudiced teaching. In complete honesty, openness, fullness of knowledge.
What do you think? Impossible task for a believer?
You say, upbringing should be motivated by love not hate or fear. True.
But what is TRUE love?
WOW. Just wow.
After many days at christianforums.com, finally one post from a Christian that actually makes sense! Your students and church people must be very lucky.
Your reply is honest and shows understanding of yhe simple message of Jesus. Amazing! Why is it so rare to see in churches and in faith?
May I ask you a hard question. Can you even for a second imagine that the Bible is wrong? Not in its entirety, obviously, but in some of its important teachings? In that case, would it be good to influence children to learn and believe it?
That is, do you think it is morally right or good to impose something as truth to children? Is it not a better way perhaps to try and be honest and say, this is what I believe in, but it's okay to think otherwise? If it's possible at all. To try and present knowledge most objectively, in a non-biased way?
Not indoctrination, but rather informing about all versions of explaining life, people, the world - allowing the possibility to chose what to believe in?
That is, giving them a complete freedom in choosing their believes and life path. No imposing. No indoctrination. Objective, balanced, wise, unprejudiced teaching. In complete honesty, openness, fullness of knowledge.
What do you think? Impossible task for a believer?
You say, upbringing should be motivated by love not hate or fear. True.
But what is TRUE love?
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