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Why is it necessary for a Christian to believe that the Bible has no errors?

Crowns&Laurels

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All of the holy scriptures are inspired, swayed by the spirit. But that doesn't mean that it is 'inerrant' either. Man's fashion and perspective is heavily laced within it just as the divine inspiration. Some books are complete revelation from God, such as through Isaiah, Ezekiel, and John of Patmos- others are inspired such as Psalms and Proverbs, and some are basically just histories and oral tradition like Genesis and Exodus.

The whole thing of treating the Bible like it fell from the sky one day, in my opinion, is from a growing fringe after the Reformation. A lot of Protestants today even see Luther as a bit adversarial to what they believe, having gotten lost in their ever-transfiguring ideologies.
The Bible deemed as inerrant is Sola Scriptura gone haywire.

That's why if you are Baptist, stick with a traditional Baptist church. If you are Methodist or Presbyterian, stick to a traditional Methodist or Presbyterian church- don't go to one that holds up the Bible like it is God Himself, because that is basically the same kind of fringe Catholicism has to deal with on others who go too far with Mary.
 
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OzSpen

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It took the church 700 years to agree on what the Bible even was. How could they practice this belief without knowing what the Bible was?

This is a historically incorrect.

There is not a scholarly consensus on when the OT Hebrew canon was officially formed, but we know there was a gathering of books into an OT 'canon' by the time the Septuagint translated the OT into Greek There was a debate about which OT books 'were the product of prophetic inspiration' at the gathering of rabbis at Jamnia after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This was in the first century AD about the time Josephus wrote Against Apion (Bruce 1988:34).

The Septuagint was translated from Hebrew/Aramaic to Greek at Alexandria in the third and second centuries BC. F F Bruce notes that 'Philo of Alexandria (c 20 BC - AD 50) evidently knew the scriptures in the Greek version only' and 'Josephus in his Antiquities generally depends on the Septuagint' (Bruce 1988:43, 46).

'Augustine, like Jerome, inherited the canon of scripture as something "given". It was part of the Christian faith which he embraced at his conversion in 386' (Bruce 1988:230).

As to the NT canon, R A Baker makes this perceptive statement:

'The first historical reference listing the exact 27 writings in the orthodox New Testament is in the Easter Letter of Athanasius in 367 AD. His reference states that these are the only recognized writings to be read in a church service. The first time a church council ruled on the list of “inspired” writings allowed to be read in church was at the Synod of Hippo in 393 AD. No document survived from this council–we only know of this decision because it was referenced at the third Synod of Carthage in 397 AD. Even this historical reference from Carthage, Canon 24, does not “list” every single document. For example, it reads, “the gospels, four books...” The only reason for this list is to confirm which writings are “sacred” and should be read in a church service. There is no comment as to why and how this list was agreed upon....

'The New Testament developed, or evolved, over the course of the first 250-300 years of Christian history. No one particular person made the decision. The decision was not made at a church council. The particular writings that became those of the New Testament gradually came into focus and became the most trusted and beneficial of all the early Christian writings' (Baker 2008).​

Oz

Works consulted
Baker, R A 2008. How the New Testament Canon was Formed. Church History 101, available at: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/New-Testament-Canon.pdf (Accessed 18 October 2015).

Bruce, F F 1988. The Canon of Scripture. Glasgow: Chapter House.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Ozspen.

Not sure if I understand what Baker wrote.
The first historical reference listing the exact 27 writings in the orthodox
New Testament is in the Easter Letter of Athanasius in 367 AD
So in the year 367AD, we have the first historical confirmation of 27 writings.
Then Baker states the following.
The New Testament developed, or evolved, over the course of the first
250-300 years of Christian history.
If in the year 367AD, we have a confirmation of 27 letters, how does Baker know
that this list developed between 250-300 years?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi - just curious as to what you mean by 'radical implications?'

Thanks for your responses, really good comments and very helpful to me on this topic. Glad you chimed in.

Hi Deidre,

I saw your question to Hedrick, and I'm guessing that in his reply about the Gnostic Gospels, his reference about 'radical implications' probably implied "Da Vinci Code" type ideas. Y'know.....like Jesus allegedly having a wife...and all that. o_O

Peace
2PhiloVoid
 
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Deidre32

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Hi Deidre,

I saw your question to Hedrick, and I'm guessing that in his reply about the Gnostic Gospels, his reference about 'radical implications' probably implied "Da Vinci Code" type ideas. Y'know.....like Jesus allegedly having a wife...and all that. o_O

Peace
2PhiloVoid
haha Oh! I hadn't thought about it like that. :D
 
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sculleywr

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This is a historically incorrect.

There is not a scholarly consensus on when the OT Hebrew canon was officially formed, but we know there was a gathering of books into an OT 'canon' by the time the Septuagint translated the OT into Greek There was a debate about which OT books 'were the product of prophetic inspiration' at the gathering of rabbis at Jamnia after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This was in the first century AD about the time Josephus wrote Against Apion (Bruce 1988:34).

The Septuagint was translated from Hebrew/Aramaic to Greek at Alexandria in the third and second centuries BC. F F Bruce notes that 'Philo of Alexandria (c 20 BC - AD 50) evidently knew the scriptures in the Greek version only' and 'Josephus in his Antiquities generally depends on the Septuagint' (Bruce 1988:43, 46).

'Augustine, like Jerome, inherited the canon of scripture as something "given". It was part of the Christian faith which he embraced at his conversion in 386' (Bruce 1988:230).

As to the NT canon, R A Baker makes this perceptive statement:

'The first historical reference listing the exact 27 writings in the orthodox New Testament is in the Easter Letter of Athanasius in 367 AD. His reference states that these are the only recognized writings to be read in a church service. The first time a church council ruled on the list of “inspired” writings allowed to be read in church was at the Synod of Hippo in 393 AD. No document survived from this council–we only know of this decision because it was referenced at the third Synod of Carthage in 397 AD. Even this historical reference from Carthage, Canon 24, does not “list” every single document. For example, it reads, “the gospels, four books...” The only reason for this list is to confirm which writings are “sacred” and should be read in a church service. There is no comment as to why and how this list was agreed upon....

'The New Testament developed, or evolved, over the course of the first 250-300 years of Christian history. No one particular person made the decision. The decision was not made at a church council. The particular writings that became those of the New Testament gradually came into focus and became the most trusted and beneficial of all the early Christian writings' (Baker 2008).​

Oz

Works consulted
Baker, R A 2008. How the New Testament Canon was Formed. Church History 101, available at: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/New-Testament-Canon.pdf (Accessed 18 October 2015).

Bruce, F F 1988. The Canon of Scripture. Glasgow: Chapter House.


However, the debate over the canon outlasted the council, with debates continuing, especially surrounding Peter's epistles and the book of Revelation, until the mid second millenium. The council of the 700s was simply the most authoritative, as it was more representative of the whole Church than the small local council you referred to. The Septuagint, however, is not accepted in the West by Protestants, who accept the Masoretic Canon, which was developed by post-Christian Jews in the Post-Nicene era. The Council of Jamnia is widely considered to be nonexistent. However, the Masoretes are not, and neither is their opinion of Christ, which motivated their truncation of the Old Testament.
 
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sculleywr

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Hello Ozspen.

Not sure if I understand what Baker wrote.

So in the year 367AD, we have the first historical confirmation of 27 writings.
Then Baker states the following.

If in the year 367AD, we have a confirmation of 27 letters, how does Baker know
that this list developed between 250-300 years?
Because there are about 7-12 other canons that existed prior to that, including the Marcionite Canon. There are many canons. The canon is, itself, a tradition. It is a Tradition that has authority above and beyond the Authority of Scripture.
 
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OzSpen

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Hello Ozspen.

Not sure if I understand what Baker wrote.

So in the year 367AD, we have the first historical confirmation of 27 writings.
Then Baker states the following.

If in the year 367AD, we have a confirmation of 27 letters, how does Baker know
that this list developed between 250-300 years?

These are good questions.


The exact list of 27 NT books in our NT was confirmed at the third synod of Carthage in AD 397 but it was only a regional council. By that time, most of the churches had agreed on the 27 NT documents, but there were some objections to works like 2 Peter and Revelation.

My language should have been more precise. The NT canon developed over a period of about 250-300 years after Christ.

We know this because of the evidence of the heretic, Marcion, and his censored or edited canon. Of this canon, F F Bruce wrote:

The earliest list of New Testament books of which we have definite knowledge was drawn up at Rome by the heretic Marcion about 140. Marcion distinguished the inferior Creator-God of the Old Testament from the God and Father revealed in Christ, and believed that the Church ought to jettison all that appertained to the former. This 'theological anti-semitism' involved the rejecting not only of the entire Old Testament but also of those parts of the New Testament which seemed to him to be infected with Judaism. So Marcion's canon consisted of two parts: (a) an expurgated edition of the third Gospel, which is the least Jewish of the Gospels, being written by the Gentile Luke; and (b) ten of the Pauline Epistles (the three 'Pastoral Epistles' being omitted). Marcion's list, however, does not represent the current verdict of the Church but a deliberate aberration from it ( F F Bruce 1959, 'The canon of the New Testament').​

Further, we have the Muratorian canon from about AD 170-200. This is the oldest known list of NT books. The beginning of this list is missing. It is in Latin (F F Bruce's reference above provides further details).

Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, Gaul, was the first writer to set out a NT canon ca AD 180 that contained the 4 Gospels, the Book of Acts, and Paul's epistles that were as authoritative as the OT (source). Irenaeus was insistent that there were only 4 Gospels, Matt, Mk, Lk, Jn. This source states that in Against Heresies (challenging the heresy of Gnosticism), Irenaeus quotes from the 4 Gospels 626 times and from the Book of Acts 54 times.

See Dr Wayne Grudem's description of the canon of Scripture HERE.

Grudem's assessment of the OT canon was, 'Thus, after approximately 435 b.c. there were no further additions to the Old Testament canon. The subsequent history of the Jewish people was recorded in other writings, such as the books of the Maccabees, but these writings were not thought worthy to be included with the collections of God’s words from earlier years'.

Regarding the NT canon, Grudem's research concluded:

'In a.d. 367 the Thirty-ninth Paschal Letter of Athanasius contained an exact list of the twenty-seven New Testament books we have today. This was the list of books accepted by the churches in the eastern part of the Mediterranean world. Thirty years later, in a.d. 397, the Council of Carthage, representing the churches in the western part of the Mediterranean world, agreed with the eastern churches on the same list. These are the earliest final lists of our present-day canon'.​

Sincerely,
Oz
 
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OzSpen

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However, the debate over the canon outlasted the council, with debates continuing, especially surrounding Peter's epistles and the book of Revelation, until the mid second millenium. The council of the 700s was simply the most authoritative, as it was more representative of the whole Church than the small local council you referred to. The Septuagint, however, is not accepted in the West by Protestants, who accept the Masoretic Canon, which was developed by post-Christian Jews in the Post-Nicene era. The Council of Jamnia is widely considered to be nonexistent. However, the Masoretes are not, and neither is their opinion of Christ, which motivated their truncation of the Old Testament.

sculley,

I do wish you would document your sources as your comments here are your assertions without sources to support your views.

The following information as a response to what you wrote is from exegete and historian, F F Bruce, The Canon of Scripture (1988, Glasgow: Chapter House, p. 45f)
  • The Hebrew Scriptures were first translated into Greek, the Septuagint (LXX), at Alexandria and 'the use of the Greek version quickly spread to other Jewish communities throughout the Greek-speaking world, not excluding Judaea itself' where the NT affirms there were 'Hellenists' (p. 45).
  • 'With few and fragmentary exceptions, the Septuagint manuscripts now in existence were produced by Christians' (p. 45). Bruce here documents the LXX MSS that are available today.
  • The order of books in copies of the LXX which have reached us, differs from the order in the Hebrew Bible 'and lies behind the conventional order of the Christian Old Testament' (p. 47).
  • 'The Scriptures known to Jesus and his disciples were no doubt the scrolls of the Hebrew Bible - the Law, the Prophets and the Writings - kept in synagogues for use during regular services and possibly at other times' (pp. 48-49).
  • 'However much the wording of Stephen's defence in Acts 7 may owe to the narrator, the consistency with which its biblical quotations and allusions are based on the Septuagint are true to life. Since Stephen was a Hellenist, the Septuagint was the edition of the scriptures which he would naturally use' (p. 49).
  • 'As soon as the gospel was carried into the Greek-speaking world, the Septuagint came into its own as the sacred text to which the preachers appealed'. It 'was used in the Greek-speaking synagogues throughout the Roman Empire. When Paul at Thessalonica visited the synagogue on three successive sabbaths and "argued with them from the scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead" (Acts 17:2f.), it was on the Septuagint that he based his arguments' (p. 49).
  • While the NT writers all used the LXX, 'to a greater or lesser degree, none of them tells us precisely what the limits of its contents were. The "scriptures" to which they appealed covered substantially the same range as the Hebrew Bible. We cannot say with absolute certainty, for example, if Paul treated Esther or the Song of Songs as scripture any more than we can say if those books belonged to the Bible which Jesus knew and used. Paul possibly alludes to Ecclesiastes when he says that creation was made subject to "vanity" (Rom. 8:20), using the same word (Gk. mataiotes) as is used in gthe Septuagint for the refrain of that book: "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity" (Eccles. 1:2; 12:8) [p. 50].
  • There are 'several quotations in the New Testament which are introduced as though they were taken from holy scripture, but their source can no longer be identified. For instance, the words "He shall be called a Nazarene", quoted in Matthew 2:23 as "what was spoken by the prophets", stand i that form in no known prophetical book. It has been suggested that there may be an allusion to Isaiah 11:1' (pp. 51-52).
  • 'Matthew can quote as a prophecy of the virginal conception of Christ the Septuagint version of Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son. . ." (Matt. 1:23), where the Greek word parthenos means specifically "virgin", as the Hebrew almah need not' (p. 53).
I have cited this information at length to demonstrate how the early Christians used the Septuagint, especially among the Hellenists. We need an understanding of the LXX in the Protestant church to see how it was used in the NT, as F F Bruce has articulated.

As for the 'Council of Jamnia' being non-existent, I did not use the language of 'Council of Jamnia'. Instead, I wrote above, citing another source, 'the gathering of rabbis at Jamnia after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This was in the first century AD about the time Josephus wrote Against Apion'.

Leading historical scholar F F Bruce, wrote:

About the same time as Josephus wrote his work Against Apion, the Hebrew scriptures were among various subjects debated by the rabbis who set up their headquarters at Jabneh or Jamnia in western Judaea, under the leadership of Yohanan ben Zakkai, to discuss the reconstruction of Jewish religious life after the collapse of the Jewish commonwealth in AD 70. [1] Jewish life had to be adapted to a new situation in which the temple and its services were no more. So far as the scriptures are concerned, the rabbis at Jamnia introduced no innovations; they reviewed the tradition they had received and left it more or less as it was. [2] It is probably unwise to talk as if there was a Council or Synod of Jamnia which laid down the limits of the Old Testament canon.
They discussed which books "defiled the hands" [3] - a technical expression denoting those books which were the produce of prophetic inspiration' (Bruce 1988:34).​

Notes:
[1] F F Bruce's footnote at this point was: 'There are many references in the Mishnah and later rabbinical compilations to the discussions of the sages (including pre-eminently Yohanan ben Zakkai) in the "vineyard of Jabneth" int he generation following AD 70. See J. P. Lewis, "What do we mean by Jabneth?" JBR 32 (1964), pp. 125-132' (Bruce 1988:34, n. 17).

[2] The footnote here was: 'Their "discussions have not so much dealt with acceptance of certain writings into the Canon, but wather with their right to remain there" (A. Bentzen, Introduction to the Old Testament, I [Copenhagen, 1948], p. 31' (Bruce 1988:34, n. 18).

[3] The footnote here as: 'See Mishna tractate Yadayim ("Hands"), 3.2-5' (Bruce 1988:34, n. 19).

Sincerely,
Oz
 
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sculleywr

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sculley,

I do wish you would document your sources as your comments here are your assertions without sources to support your views.

The following information as a response to what you wrote is from exegete and historian, F F Bruce, The Canon of Scripture (1988, Glasgow: Chapter House, p. 45f)
  • The Hebrew Scriptures were first translated into Greek, the Septuagint (LXX), at Alexandria and 'the use of the Greek version quickly spread to other Jewish communities throughout the Greek-speaking world, not excluding Judaea itself' where the NT affirms there were 'Hellenists' (p. 45).
  • 'With few and fragmentary exceptions, the Septuagint manuscripts now in existence were produced by Christians' (p. 45). Bruce here documents the LXX MSS that are available today.
  • The order of books in copies of the LXX which have reached us, differs from the order in the Hebrew Bible 'and lies behind the conventional order of the Christian Old Testament' (p. 47).
  • 'The Scriptures known to Jesus and his disciples were no doubt the scrolls of the Hebrew Bible - the Law, the Prophets and the Writings - kept in synagogues for use during regular services and possibly at other times' (pp. 48-49).
  • 'However much the wording of Stephen's defence in Acts 7 may owe to the narrator, the consistency with which its biblical quotations and allusions are based on the Septuagint are true to life. Since Stephen was a Hellenist, the Septuagint was the edition of the scriptures which he would naturally use' (p. 49).
  • 'As soon as the gospel was carried into the Greek-speaking world, the Septuagint came into its own as the sacred text to which the preachers appealed'. It 'was used in the Greek-speaking synagogues throughout the Roman Empire. When Paul at Thessalonica visited the synagogue on three successive sabbaths and "argued with them from the scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead" (Acts 17:2f.), it was on the Septuagint that he based his arguments' (p. 49).
  • While the NT writers all used the LXX, 'to a greater or lesser degree, none of them tells us precisely what the limits of its contents were. The "scriptures" to which they appealed covered substantially the same range as the Hebrew Bible. We cannot say with absolute certainty, for example, if Paul treated Esther or the Song of Songs as scripture any more than we can say if those books belonged to the Bible which Jesus knew and used. Paul possibly alludes to Ecclesiastes when he says that creation was made subject to "vanity" (Rom. 8:20), using the same word (Gk. mataiotes) as is used in gthe Septuagint for the refrain of that book: "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity" (Eccles. 1:2; 12:8) [p. 50].
  • There are 'several quotations in the New Testament which are introduced as though they were taken from holy scripture, but their source can no longer be identified. For instance, the words "He shall be called a Nazarene", quoted in Matthew 2:23 as "what was spoken by the prophets", stand i that form in no known prophetical book. It has been suggested that there may be an allusion to Isaiah 11:1' (pp. 51-52).
  • 'Matthew can quote as a prophecy of the virginal conception of Christ the Septuagint version of Isaiah 7:14, "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son. . ." (Matt. 1:23), where the Greek word parthenos means specifically "virgin", as the Hebrew almah need not' (p. 53).
I have cited this information at length to demonstrate how the early Christians used the Septuagint, especially among the Hellenists. We need an understanding of the LXX in the Protestant church to see how it was used in the NT, as F F Bruce has articulated.

As for the 'Council of Jamnia' being non-existent, I did not use the language of 'Council of Jamnia'. Instead, I wrote above, citing another source, 'the gathering of rabbis at Jamnia after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This was in the first century AD about the time Josephus wrote Against Apion'.

Leading historical scholar F F Bruce, wrote:

About the same time as Josephus wrote his work Against Apion, the Hebrew scriptures were among various subjects debated by the rabbis who set up their headquarters at Jabneh or Jamnia in western Judaea, under the leadership of Yohanan ben Zakkai, to discuss the reconstruction of Jewish religious life after the collapse of the Jewish commonwealth in AD 70. [1] Jewish life had to be adapted to a new situation in which the temple and its services were no more. So far as the scriptures are concerned, the rabbis at Jamnia introduced no innovations; they reviewed the tradition they had received and left it more or less as it was. [2] It is probably unwise to talk as if there was a Council or Synod of Jamnia which laid down the limits of the Old Testament canon.
They discussed which books "defiled the hands" [3] - a technical expression denoting those books which were the produce of prophetic inspiration' (Bruce 1988:34).​

Notes:
[1] F F Bruce's footnote at this point was: 'There are many references in the Mishnah and later rabbinical compilations to the discussions of the sages (including pre-eminently Yohanan ben Zakkai) in the "vineyard of Jabneth" int he generation following AD 70. See J. P. Lewis, "What do we mean by Jabneth?" JBR 32 (1964), pp. 125-132' (Bruce 1988:34, n. 17).

[2] The footnote here was: 'Their "discussions have not so much dealt with acceptance of certain writings into the Canon, but wather with their right to remain there" (A. Bentzen, Introduction to the Old Testament, I [Copenhagen, 1948], p. 31' (Bruce 1988:34, n. 18).

[3] The footnote here as: 'See Mishna tractate Yadayim ("Hands"), 3.2-5' (Bruce 1988:34, n. 19).

Sincerely,
Oz
Mostly, I don't cite the sources because this debate on the specifics of the canon isn't on the topic of the discussion. And you're just securing my point that they couldn't practically believe that Scripture was inerrant when there wasn't universal agreement about what even belonged in Scripture, especially relating to certain books. The debate over Revelation lasted so long that it is the only New Testament book that is not read liturgically in the Orthodox Calendar (you can scour any Orthodox Liturgical Calendar to confirm that).

The point I'm driving at is the fact that they would not have believed in something that could not be practically applied in their time. Scriptural inerrancy is impractical in pretty much every generation of the Church. And since it is treated as dogma by Protestants, and not simply a doctrine, it has a higher standard to meet than just simple doctrine. For example, it is a doctrine of the Orthodox Church that the monastic life is a holy and noble calling. It isn't dogma because it cannot be applied to all generations, since the monastic lifestyle we know of today started with the 2nd to 3rd century Desert Fathers. Dogma must be applicable to all generations. This argument is also why Orthodox do not accept the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, because it is impossible for 95% of the early Church to practice, since much of the early Church did not have access to the Scriptures, and because those that did only had access through their church gatherings or through the local synagogue, until the Christians were driven completely out of the synagogues. Irenaeus writes of his parishioners that they were "Barbarians, as regards language", but that they were strong in the Faith, holding to the "Tradition, which was given by the Apostles, and preserved through the succession of the Presbyters in the Church".
 
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hedrick

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You say that 'most liberals believe what they do because the nature of Scripture is most consistent with it being a human witness to God's actions in history'. That's not what I encounter in dialogue with liberals. They admit, when pressed, that their conclusions are based on presuppositions like the one you gave - that Scripture is a human witness to God's action in history. That's not what the Scriptures state. 'All Scripture' is theopneustos (God-breathed). The Scripture does not affirm what you state about liberals.
But the reason I think it's a human witness to God is the this is most consistent with the nature of Scripture itself. I'm sure you're aware that theopneustos has a range of meanings, and does not dictate inerrancy. The passage from which it's taken simply says that Scripture is useful for some important purposes.
 
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hedrick

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Hi Deidre,

I saw your question to Hedrick, and I'm guessing that in his reply about the Gnostic Gospels, his reference about 'radical implications' probably implied "Da Vinci Code" type ideas. Y'know.....like Jesus allegedly having a wife...and all that. o_O

Yup. They aren't all quite that interesting, but still, there's a fair amount of "creativity" among them.
 
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OzSpen

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But the reason I think it's a human witness to God is the this is most consistent with the nature of Scripture itself. I'm sure you're aware that theopneustos has a range of meanings, and does not dictate inerrancy. The passage from which it's taken simply says that Scripture is useful for some important purposes.

No, Hedrick. 2 Tim 3:16 states that 'all Scripture' is theopneustos = God breathed.
 
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OzSpen

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Mostly, I don't cite the sources because this debate on the specifics of the canon isn't on the topic of the discussion. And you're just securing my point that they couldn't practically believe that Scripture was inerrant when there wasn't universal agreement about what even belonged in Scripture, especially relating to certain books. The debate over Revelation lasted so long that it is the only New Testament book that is not read liturgically in the Orthodox Calendar (you can scour any Orthodox Liturgical Calendar to confirm that).

The point I'm driving at is the fact that they would not have believed in something that could not be practically applied in their time. Scriptural inerrancy is impractical in pretty much every generation of the Church. And since it is treated as dogma by Protestants, and not simply a doctrine, it has a higher standard to meet than just simple doctrine. For example, it is a doctrine of the Orthodox Church that the monastic life is a holy and noble calling. It isn't dogma because it cannot be applied to all generations, since the monastic lifestyle we know of today started with the 2nd to 3rd century Desert Fathers. Dogma must be applicable to all generations. This argument is also why Orthodox do not accept the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, because it is impossible for 95% of the early Church to practice, since much of the early Church did not have access to the Scriptures, and because those that did only had access through their church gatherings or through the local synagogue, until the Christians were driven completely out of the synagogues. Irenaeus writes of his parishioners that they were "Barbarians, as regards language", but that they were strong in the Faith, holding to the "Tradition, which was given by the Apostles, and preserved through the succession of the Presbyters in the Church".

You still refuse to deal with the specifics of my post. If you continue to do this, I will respond no further as you are committing a red herring logical fallacy and we can't have a logical discussion when you do this.
 
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OzSpen

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Inerrancy requires us to dismiss parts of science, archaeology, and history, and to ignore development of people's understanding of God.

I await the evidence from you. Please provide me with citations from evangelical scholars who believe in inerrancy who dismiss parts of science, archaeology, and history. Your response here is sadly lacking in verification.
 
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sculleywr

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You still refuse to deal with the specifics of my post. If you continue to do this, I will respond no further as you are committing a red herring logical fallacy and we can't have a logical discussion when you do this.
It isn't a logical fallacy or a red herring. It was the main point of what I was talking about BEFORE you responded to me. You went off on a tangent based on a supporting point with an argument that didn't change the end result. Whether it had been 300 years or 700 years, the argument still stands. There was a long period of time wherein a person could not practice the belief in the inerrancy of Scripture because he could not definitively say what Scripture was. Even then, most could not practice this doctrine because the Scripture was not fully available in most places outside of the Church, and even then many Churches had to do without. Access to Scripture was such an issue that the Canons of the Church Councils required that a man who wished to become Bishop must memorize the entire Psalter. Even after the Printing Press, regular access for the average person to the Scriptures was difficult, as most copies still took a prohibitively long time to make, and rhetoric translations were condemned as heretical in the west, with several translators (such as John Wycliffe and William Tyndale) being murdered for the translation of Scripture into the language of the common man.

So in reality, your argument over the exact time it took to canonize Scripture is a red herring from the original point: that the doctrine of Scriptural inerrancy was impractical in the early Church because of the lack of a recognized canon and actual access to inerrant Scriptures, and is impractical now because of the lack of access to an inerrant copy of Scripture. So, if you do not wish to engage my original point, feel free not to respond.
 
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SkyWriting

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Asked this on another forum, and thought I'd ask it here, too.

Just curious on this point. If men were responsible for taking 'God's word' and putting it to paper, could it be that somewhere along the way, there were errors? That parts of the Bible might not be free from corruption? It requires faith to believe in the overall message of the Bible, and it requires the belief in God's grace to have a relationship with Christ...and to me, experiencing the Holy Spirit is all we truly 'need,' so why is it necessary to believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God?
I ask this because as I'm exploring churches, their 'mission statement' is wrapped up in believing that the Bible has no errors. (errors of man) What do you think? :sunflower:

We start with the premise that you are not insane and babbling nonsense with drool coming out your mouth.
(my apologies to those with such challenges)
From that we take it on faith, you are real and we respond to your question.

It's the premise of relating to others, not just scripture.
 
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hedrick

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I await the evidence from you. Please provide me with citations from evangelical scholars who believe in inerrancy who dismiss parts of science, archaeology, and history. Your response here is sadly lacking in verification.
Sorry, but I’m not interested in conducting a one-man argument on evolution and the archaeology and history of Israel. Discussions in forums where such discussions normally occur do not make me optimistic that it's worth the amount of time it takes to do it. It’s pretty obvious that most adherents of inerrancy reject significant portions of mainstream astronomy (in maintaining a young earth), biology (in rejecting evolution), archaeology and history (in maintaining the accuracy of OT accounts of the exodus and other events).

You’ve reacted as if I were accusing you of ignorance. I am not. Rather, evangelical commitments have led to the development of separate evangelical history, archaeology, and Biblical scholarship. The people doing it, as far as I can tell, are real scholars. I certainly would never consider hem to be ignorant. But their theological commitment lead them to conclusions that differ from non-evangelicals.

I’m not going to be as complimentary in the areas involving biology and astronomy, as I’m not aware of any real “creation science.” However that’s an area in which at least some evangelicals (though certainly not all) have found ways to interpret Genesis to be consistent with at least parts of standard biology and astronomy. However as far as I can tell, evolution is still rejected by many and probably most who accept inerrancy, and young-earth creationism is widespread though not universal. Do you disagree?

If you think I'm wrong, and most adherents of inerrancy actually do accept evolution, mainstream astronomy, etc, then perhaps we do need to look for documentation, but I'd be really surprised.
 
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hedrick

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Incidentally, as a Presbyterian I try to follow events in the PCA. Their recent report on creation allows interpretations that are consistent with at least much of consensus science. However the variety of interpretive schemes they use seem to push “literal” to its breaking point. I can’t help of being reminded of some (though not all) of the schemes used by the liberal side in the arguments over Paul and homosexuality.

The problem with things like day-age is that they change the nature of inerrancy. If inerrancy is going to be useful, we have to be able to say that when we read Scripture with ordinary means, we can believe what it says. But the schemes in the PCA report are being promulgated to deal with what we’ve learned from science. While plenty of allegorical schemes have been used with Scripture historically, a Protestant “plain” reading of Genesis wouldn’t lead to these schemes if we didn’t have the scientific evidence.

So rather than saying we can rely on a plain reading, the PCA report says that if we know something from outside Scripture, we can find a way to interpret Scripture to be consistent with it. But a version of inerrancy that says we can always accommodate Scripture to external evidence isn’t quite what many people are looking for from inerrancy. Where else in Scripture is the plain reading wrong? Can we actually be confident that everything it says, reading it with ordinary means, is true?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yup. They aren't all quite that interesting, but still, there's a fair amount of "creativity" among them.

Yes, indeed on that "creativity."

Thank you for confirming that point, hedrick.

Blessings!
2PhiloVoid
 
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