Why is hell even necessary?

[drich0150]

Another good point. I'm just repeating what pastors told me my whole life. Even when I was a christian, whenever I heard "God can't be in the presence of sinfulness" I always thought "yeah he can...he does it all the time"

Indeed He does/can, So the reason for the "separation" lies else where.

Again, I'm just going by the doctrines of protestant churches in America. This is what they teach. God is love and He REALLY wants you to go to heaven. But if you don't choose Him then he CAN'T let you in no matter how bad he REALLY wants you to be there. If that is the way it is, and his hands are just tied, why wouldn't he just annihilate us at death?

If you do the simple key word search i suggested you would have your answers.

That would be Just AND Merciful. But the God of the Bible isn't anything like what most churches in America say He is.

I would say that most churches do their best to describe God. But, even in their best efforts how can the finite ever describe the infinite? The truth, the finite can not ever encompass the infinite, so the finite picks a corner of the infinite and describes what we see from that vantage.

What we describe is not necessarily wrong, it's just not always a complete picture.

I agree with you there.

Which is the "reason" for the separation I just spoke of.

I know. My question is not "Why don't I get to go to heaven?" It's "Why does the separation from God have to involve fire, brimstone, and gnashing of teeth?"

The whole gnashing of teeth bit is a personal lament of all that you loose in Hell. Again the the why can be found in a simple key word search of Hell.

Do you remember what it was like before you were born? Neither do I. Why can't death for non-believers be like that? That would be merciful and just. We don't get the reward of heaven but we also don't get ETERNAL TORTURE for a finite transgression.

When you do a key word search be sure to include book chapter and verse that says that our torture is indeed infinite. Not that the fire is infinite, but our experience of it is.

God can do anything. (Well anything except sin or things that are self-contradictory) He created our souls, why couldn't he destroy them?

I did not say He could or could not. I am trying to get you to let go of what you have been taught for the sake of what the bible says. It astonishes me that so many like you will denounce the teachings of the gospel, but retain every last word taught about Hell. Why not start over if you are going to Start over?

I'm going with what the majority of churches teach in America, which I already know isn't really based on the Bible. But it's what I was told and it's what I assume most members of this forum believe.

Just a little research will remedy allot of what you have been "taught."

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

No. The guy in the video didn't make the claim. You did. It's cowardly to make a claim and then hide behind somebody else's skirt.



And don't blame us if we don't take your silly claims seriously because you won't show any evidence to back them up.

.....are you kidding me? Anything you or I claim or counter-claim was first claimed by someone else. If I go to google and type in "durrrr Biblical contradictions?!" anything I copy and paste from there is someone else's words. And likewise, when you then go to AnswersInGenesis or someplace like that and copypasta the prewritten response, you're posting someone else's words. And worse yet, we have no idea who's words we're copying and if they're credible. So I decided to go straight to an expert, someone with a PhD, someone who has devoted their life and career to studying the Bible in the context of history.

So there's my evidence that YOU asked for. Whatever he says is more credible than anything I could copy and paste from google. Do you want me to transcribe it for you and pretend they are my words?

Unless you are willing to look at the evidence that YOU asked for, I don't see how we can have an honest conversation.

So, are you copping out?

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

So, are you copping out?

Nope. I asked you for just three examples out of what you claim are hundreds. You have my word before everybody posting in this thread that if you will just list three contradictions and one historical inaccuracy, I will address it.

I'm waiting to address them but you have to tell me what they are. The ball is in your court.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Nope. I asked you for just three examples out of what you claim are hundreds. You have my word before everybody posting in this thread that if you will just list three contradictions and one historical inaccuracy, I will address it.

I'm waiting to address them but you have to tell me what they are. The ball is in your court.

Oh my god, fine. Whatever. Here is the first result I got on google. (how many times has THIS been done on internet forums?
This should be new and interesting)
LINK

And here are three randomly selected contradictions

The order of creation is different in different chapters of Genesis

How did Judas die?

Hiding good deeds or not?


And a historical inaccuracy: The scholarly consensus is that the Exodus probably didn't happen and DEFINITELY didn't happen the way it was described in the Bible.


And since you don't like videos of lectures from established scholars with PhD's, here's a cartoon video with literally dozens upon dozens of Biblical contradictions in a short, fun, and entertaining format.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk


Are you satisfied?

 

[sabercroft]

No. I'm not interested in what they say. I'm interested in seeing you back up your claims. The guy in the video didn't make the claim. You did. It's cowardly to make a claim and then hide behind somebody else's skirt.

That's completely ridiculous. Providing evidence from actual Bible scholars doesn't count as backing up his claims in your book? How exactly does that logic work?

Or is this just your best shot at a dodge?

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

Oh my god, fine. Whatever. Here is the first result I got on google.

Google???

Seriously??? You made the claim and then had to go to Google to see if your claim was even true?

Can you imagine what would happen if the Christians here did this? The athsists would never let us live it down.



And here are three randomly selected contradictions

The order of creation is different in different chapters of Genesis

OK. What's the contradiction?

How did Judas die?

What's the contradiction?

Hiding good deeds or not?

What's the contradiction?

And a historical inaccuracy: The scholarly consensus is that the Exodus probably didn't happen and DEFINITELY didn't happen the way it was described in the Bible.

OK. What part of the Exodous account do you believe is historically inaccurate?

And since you don't like videos of lectures from established scholars with PhD's, here's a cartoon video with literally dozens upon dozens of Biblical contradictions in a short, fun, and entertaining format.

...that's been debunked many, many times because literally every "contradiction" is based on taking verses out of context.

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

That's completely ridiculous. Providing evidence from actual Bible scholars doesn't count as backing up his claims in your book? How exactly does that logic work?

You mean the logic that says it's OK to present evidence before anybody even knows what you're presenting evidence for? I don't know.

Or is this just your best shot at a dodge?

Nope. I asked you for just three examples out of what you claim are hundreds. You have my word before everybody posting in this thread that if you will just list three contradictions and one historical inaccuracy, I will address it.

I'm waiting to address them but you have to tell me what they are. The ball is in your court.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Google???

Seriously??? You made the claim and then had to go to Google to see if your claim was even true?

Can you imagine what would happen if the Christians here did this? The athsists would never let us live it down.

You're exactly right. I'm sorry. I'll go to an established, PhD holding Biblical scholar next time. Why did I never think of that?
[/QUOTE]

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

You're exactly right. I'm sorry. I'll go to an established, PhD holding Biblical scholar next time. Why did I never think of that?

Better yet, why don't you wait until you know whether there are actually contradictions before you run to Google to find out whether or not there are contradictions and what they are?

 

[sabercroft]

You mean the logic that says it's OK to present evidence before anybody even knows what you're presenting evidence for? I don't know.

No, I'm saying it's completely ridiculous to claim that he hasn't provided any evidence when you refuse to watch the videos. It's not really a difficult concept to understand, is it?

Better yet, why don't you wait until you know whether there are actually contradictions before you run to Google to find out whether or not there are contradictions and what they are?

Or maybe he just used Google to find a proper source to give you. Do you assume people know where every single piece of information they need is located off the top of their heads?

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

You mean the logic that says it's OK to present evidence before anybody even knows what you're presenting evidence for? I don't know.

Ok, I see where you're confused. I'll be more clear. My claim is that the Bible has been altered too many time to be reliable. My evidence? Here's a Biblical scholar saying just that.
YouTube - ‪Misquoting Jesus, Stanford Lecture, How Bible Got Tainted 1/10‬‏


My second claim is that there are many contradictions in the Bible. Here is a video that lists them in a slightly unorthodox way but lists the Biblical references so you can look them up yourself. Please address the first 3 contradictions listed. Or any three. It doesn't matter.

YouTube - ‪Quiz Show (Bible Contradictions)‬‏



My third claim is that the Exodus from Egypt never happened. Here is my evidence. The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



If you disagree with my evidence that's perfectly valid. But if you don't even LOOK at it, then you're being intellectually dishonest and I think everyone can see that. You are intentionally dodging the issue. I posted evidence, you didn't like it, so I dumbed it down for you and you still didn't like it. If you ignore it again, I think I officially declare this conversation over. Don't ask for things you're unwilling to look into.

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

Ok, I see where you're confused.

Ad homs don't help your argument.

My claim is that the Bible has been altered too many time to be reliable.

Do you have examples?

My second claim is that there are many contradictions in the Bible.

Could you please name your top three examples?

Please address the first 3 contradictions listed.

You didn't list three contradictions. You just threw out three phrases but didn't tell me what makes them contradictions.

My third claim is that the Exodus from Egypt never happened. Here is my evidence.

What event in the Exodous account do you believe is inaccurate?

You are intentionally dodging the issue.

If I were dodging the issue, then I wouldn't keep asking you questions to get you to give me something to respond to.

Simply saying "How did Judas die" isn't a contradiction. It's like saying, "Solve the following mathmatical formula: 4".

In order for it to be a contradiction and in order for me to have something to respond to, you have to say something to the effect of, "the Bible gives two contradicting accounts of Judas' death. For instance, in verse so and so, it says that he died this way, while in verse this and that, it says he died that way".

If you ignore it again, I think I officially declare this conversation over.

Like I said, if I was ignoring it, I wouldn't keep asking you questions to try to get you to tell me what the contradictions are.

You said that Judas' death is a contradiction. I asked how it's a contradiction. You won't tell me. You said the creation accounts are different. I asked you how they're different. You won't tell me.

I can't play both of our roles for you.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Ad homs don't help your argument.

Ad hom-....I wasn't attacking you I was trying to clarify.

Do you have examples?



Could you please name your top three examples?

I posted them. Stop ignoring them.

You didn't list three contradictions. You just threw out three phrases but didn't tell me what makes them contradictions.

Are you not able to see links or youtube videos on your computer? Is youtube blocked at your work or something?

What event in the Exodous account do you believe is inaccurate?

That it happened at all. The Egyptians never enslaved the entire Jewish civilization. Therefore everything that happened afterward never happened. But we can start with just that first claim. Egypt never enslaved all of the Jewish people. For my source, see the wikipedia article I posted above.

Simply saying "How did Judas die" isn't a contradiction. It's like saying, "Solve the following mathmatical formula: 4".

Do you not know how to click links? Did judas hang himself or did he fall to his death and split his guts open. How many women went to Jesus' tomb? Because the different Gospels list a different number each time. What day was Jesus crucified on? Because the different gospels say it happened on different days. That should be enough for you to respond.

In order for it to be a contradiction and in order for me to have something to respond to, you have to say something to the effect of, "the Bible gives two contradicting accounts of Judas' death. For instance, in verse so and so, it says that he died this way, while in verse this and that, it says he died that way".

Ok you're just playing with me. I KNOW you know of that contradiction because EVERYONE knows that the Bible gives two differing accounts of Judas' death. I also assume you have some pre-written response for it that you got from a Christian website...which you probably found on google.


And for my last claim, that the Bible has been altered many times, you're going to have to watch the video I posted because there's no way I can condense it to the three bullet points that you want. You're going to have to put in some effort.

Like I said, if I was ignoring it, I wouldn't keep asking you questions to try to get you to tell me what the contradictions are.

You're either the worst question-dodger in the internet, or the most cunning troll on the internet haha

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

I posted them. Stop ignoring them.

You didn't post them. You just posted phrases. You didn't tell me what the contradictions are supposed to be.

That it happened at all.

What specific event in the Exodous account do you believe is "historically inaccurate"?

Did judas hang himself or did he fall to his death and split his guts open.

He hung himself and then his body fell.

How many women went to Jesus' tomb? Because the different Gospels list a different number each time.

And how is that a contradiction? Does the text ever say "only two women" or "only three women"?

What day was Jesus crucified on? Because the different gospels say it happened on different days.

What verses are you referring to?

And for my last claim, that the Bible has been altered many times, you're going to have to watch the video I posted because there's no way I can condense it to the three bullet points that you want. You're going to have to put in some effort.

OK. I didn't expect you to back it up.

You're either the worst question-dodger in the internet, or the most cunning troll on the internet haha

If I were dodging your questions, I wouldn't keep on asking you questions to try to get you to give me something to respond to.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

You didn't post them. You just posted phrases. You didn't tell me what the contradictions are supposed to be.



What specific event in the Exodous account do you believe is "historically inaccurate"?



He hung himself and then his body fell.



And how is that a contradiction? Does the text ever say "only two women" or "only three women"?



What verses are you referring to?



OK. I didn't expect you to back it up.



If I were dodging your questions, I wouldn't keep on asking you questions to try to get you to give me something to respond to.

Haha I can't believe a Poe got me to engage for so long. That was entertaining, thanks. Cya later!

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

Haha I can't believe a Poe got me to engage for so long. That was entertaining, thanks. Cya later!

Funny that you belittled me for allegedly not answering (even though you constantly refused to give me anything to answer) and then, when I was able to salvage enough information from two out of three of your questions to try to answer them, you ignored the answers.

 

[sabercroft]

Funny that you belittled me for allegedly not answering (even though you constantly refused to give me anything to answer) and then, when I was able to salvage enough information from two out of three of your questions to try to answer them, you ignored the answers.

TaW, is there a reason why you adamantly refuse to watch the videos, and then constantly try to claim that DontTreadOnMike hasn't provided you with anything to answer?

I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt that you're not just here to troll, so with that said, I'd genuinely like to see you or anyone else present an honest and straightforward discussion about the points raised in the videos, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop this incessant dodging.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Funny that you belittled me for allegedly not answering (even though you constantly refused to give me anything to answer) and then, when I was able to salvage enough information from two out of three of your questions to try to answer them, you ignored the answers.

It was this right here:

Me: That it happened at all

You:What specific event in the Exodus account do you believe is "historically inaccurate"?

But when you quoted me, you left out the whole explanation where I said that the Egyptians never enslaved the Israelites. You ignored the one specific event that I gave and then asked me for one specific event. That's what told me that you aren't sincere and you just want to yank my chain. So I think you're a Poe at best (which is not belittling. I LOVE Poes. I think they're fun. In fact I was a Poe on this account myself at one point) or at worst you're intellectually dishonest and have no interest in an actual discussion. Either way, I don't really have an interest in continuing this conversation. So I'm putting you on the ignore list. Go ahead and claim victory if you want. I think others can judge for themselves.

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

So I'm putting you on the ignore list.

As I am you.

Go ahead and claim victory if you want. I think others can judge for themselves.

As do I. And I feel confident that they will see that I tried to engage you several times to no avail.

 

[Traveller and Wiley]

I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop this incessant dodging.

How is asking for more information in order to know what it is I'm supposed to refute "dodging"?