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Why is did God create us with the capacity to sin?

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Reformationist

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Today at 10:55 AM Allen2 said this in Post #59

Hi Ref! I am thoroughly enjoying and profiting from our discussions.

As am I.  Thank you very much for your godly example.

 I can't get out of my mind something you wrote:"Jesus accomplished your salvation, then you are saved." You insisted that even prior to your faith in Christ, say yrs or eternity, you are, in fact, ALREADY SAVED.
How does this square with this story from Paul's ministry in Philipi: the jailer cries out :"Sirs, what must I do[pointing to the future'] to be saved?" [Paul and Silas] replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED[future]", Acts.16:30-31?

I believe that we are saved in the eternal sense because God is not in time and therefore the way we perceive things is not necessarily the way things are.  God's plan is complete.  He's not wondering about what's to come.  We do because we are finite and live in time.  I did not mean to imply that we are always regenerate, as in, having been spiritually reborn from above and given the gift of faith in Christ.  I was referring to eternal salvation.

God bless,

Don
 
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bird

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to whom it may concern: it would seem that the folks here who hold to the reformed tradition are pretty certain that they are part of "the elect"....i was wondering just how you became aware that you were indeed part of the elect? do you also hold to the belief that your children are included in your election?

bird
 
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Today at 03:02 PM bird said this in Post #62

to whom it may concern: it would seem that the folks here who hold to the reformed tradition are pretty certain that they are part of "the elect"....i was wondering just how you became aware that you were indeed part of the elect?
/quote]

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=774550#post774550

do you also hold to the belief that your children are included in your election?

bird

No.  Election is an individual issue.  I've known families where some are believers and some are not.  I do believe that God has blessed my children by putting them in a Christian home (Prov 20:7) and I believe His promise that if I raise children in fear and admonition of the Lord that when they grow older they shall not depart.

God bless
 
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rnmomof7

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Today at 06:37 PM Reformationist said this in Post #63



No.  Election is an individual issue.  I've known families where some are believers and some are not.  I do believe that God has blessed my children by putting them in a Christian home (Prov 20:7) and I believe His promise that if I raise children in fear and admonition of the Lord that when they grow older they shall not depart.

God bless

I agree . I pray for my children and I have confidence those that remain unsaved will come, and I have confidence that my grand children will come.
But as someone pointed out to me I came from a heathan unsaved home..Yet God choose me..Incredible!

What I do know is that God judges rightly I trust God with the eternity of my children.

How ever He judges it will be a right judgement.

Psa 37:25 I have been young, and [now] am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
\
 
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Today at 12:02 AM rnmomof7 said this in Post #64



I agree . I pray for my children and I have confidence those that remain unsaved will come, and I have confidence that my grand children will come.
But as someone pointed out to me I came from a heathan unsaved home..Yet God choose me..Incredible!

What I do know is that God judges rightly I trust God with the eternity of my children.

How ever He judges it will be a right judgement.

Psa 37:25 I have been young, and [now] am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
\


dear momof7,

thank you for your response.  you said  that "god judges rightly"  and therefore you trust him with the eternity of your children, and that you pray for them,  does that mean your prayers have some affect?  how does that work?   you seem to have the assurance that god has chosen you; my question is, what is your assurance of your election based upon?   just how did god relate that to you?

 

bird
 
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Today at 07:30 PM bird said this in Post #66




dear momof7,

thank you for your response.  you said  that "god judges rightly"  and therefore you trust him with the eternity of your children, and that you pray for them,  does that mean your prayers have some affect?  how does that work?   you seem to have the assurance that god has chosen you; my question is, what is your assurance of your election based upon?   just how did god relate that to you?

 

bird

God is not surpriesd by my prayers He has put them in my heart ..
 
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Yesterday at 11:37 PM Reformationist said this in Post #63



No.  Election is an individual issue.  I've known families where some are believers and some are not.  I do believe that God has blessed my children by putting them in a Christian home (Prov 20:7) and I believe His promise that if I raise children in fear and admonition of the Lord that when they grow older they shall not depart.

God bless


 

thank you for your response, but i'm a little unclear about what you mean that "election is an individual issue."   it seems i read somewhere that the reformed tradition believed in something about covenant children or covenant family?    is that true, and if so, what does that mean?

 

bird
 
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Reformationist

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Yesterday at 05:26 PM bird said this in Post #68

thank you for your response, but i'm a little unclear about what you mean that "election is an individual issue."   it seems i read somewhere that the reformed tradition believed in something about covenant children or covenant family?

God has established a covenant with His elect and their children:

Acts 2:39
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

I would say, however, that this does not necessarily dictate that God is obligated to bring to salvation every single person of the line of each elect person.  I could be wrong.  I am not studied on the issue.

is that true, and if so, what does that mean?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. 
 
God bless
 
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CCWoody

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Yesterday at 05:02 PM bird said this in Post #62

to whom it may concern: it would seem that the folks here who hold to the reformed tradition are pretty certain that they are part of "the elect"....i was wondering just how you became aware that you were indeed part of the elect? do you also hold to the belief that your children are included in your election?

bird

I knew I was indeed first chosen by the LORD as I saw His salvation and met the Lord when I wasn't even looking for it or Him.  And I say that because at the time I already thought I had Him so I wasn't even looking.  And that is indeed sweet, don't you think?

And, yes, my children are part of the elect.  On the night my first was conceived, I prayed that the Lord would give me His children, not mine.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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CCWoody

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8th April 2003 at 08:17 PM Ragman said this in Post #56



Woody:

There is not failure in the Father.  There is not failure in creation, nor in redemption....

Would you father children in order to torment them eternally in hell?  Would you do it for the purpose that folks would say, "Glory to Woody, he torments his own children, what wonderful justice."?

Ragman, I agree that there is no failure in God.  But the problem is that you are telling me that He has failed.  A.W. Pink states it better that I can:
  • How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being.

    To declare that the Creator's original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise in Eden and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the bounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam's fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Writ, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain" (Psa. 76:10). In a word, to deny the Sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical terminus, is to arrive at blank atheism.

    The Sovereignty of the God of Scripture is absolute, irresistible, infinite. When we say that God is Sovereign we affirm His right to govern the universe which He has made for His own glory, just as He pleases. We affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i. e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. We affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.
 

Are you better than God?

Of course not.  I affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i. e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. I affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.

As for you suggesting that the Holy Spirit is not at work you are saying there is no work of the Spirit in mothering, fathering, being a good student or worker or artist or musician, etc..... Do you say that these are mere "human" activities absent of God's Spirit?

Are you saying that all creation was not made by the Son and does not consist in the Son?  Is that what you are saying?  Or, are you saying that they were made by the Son, consist in the Son, but are unaffected by the Son unless they are what you call "the elect"?  You are saying one or the other, which is it?  If you are saying either one you are denying the deity of Christ which you profess.

I am not suggesting that the Holy Spirit is not at work.  It is dishonest of you to even claim that.  You know that my complain is not that the Holy Spirit is not working, but that according to your view He is failing.  And that is entirely different.

I affirm that the Holy Spirit is doing absolutely whatever it takes to bring the Elect of God to repentance and belief, even splitting the heavens apart if need to knock someone off of their spiritual high horse.

As far as the rest of your comments, I think you need to go back and directly address this verse:
  • Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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Wrigley

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Today at 10:56 AM CCWoody said this in Post #70



I knew I was indeed first chosen by the LORD as I saw His salvation and met the Lord when I wasn't even looking for it or Him.  And I say that because at the time I already thought I had Him so I wasn't even looking.  And that is indeed sweet, don't you think?

And, yes, my children are part of the elect.  On the night my first was conceived, I prayed that the Lord would give me His children, not mine.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Thanks for showing again my selfishness. All too often I think of things being mine, not His.
 
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Today at 11:33 AM Wrigley said this in Post #72

Thanks for showing again my selfishness. All too often I think of things being mine, not His.

No problem.  Feel free to knock me around any time you need to.

Question 1. What is thy only comfort in life and death?

Answer: That I with body and soul, both in life and death, (a) am not my own, (b) but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; (c) who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, (d) and delivered me from all the power of the devil; (e) and so preserves me (f) that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; (g) yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, (h) and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, (i) and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him. (j)

Woody.

BTW, I thought that you were not married and had no kids, but only had a dog.  Am I wrong?
 
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Today at 02:02 PM CCWoody said this in Post #74



No problem.  Feel free to knock me around any time you need to.

Question 1. What is thy only comfort in life and death?

Answer: That I with body and soul, both in life and death, (a) am not my own, (b) but belong unto my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ; (c) who, with his precious blood, has fully satisfied for all my sins, (d) and delivered me from all the power of the devil; (e) and so preserves me (f) that without the will of my heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head; (g) yea, that all things must be subservient to my salvation, (h) and therefore, by his Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, (i) and makes me sincerely willing and ready, henceforth, to live unto him. (j)

Woody.

BTW, I thought that you were not married and had no kids, but only had a dog.  Am I wrong?

You're right. But what you wrote made me think of selfishness.
 
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Ragman

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Today at 10:16 AM CCWoody said this in Post #71



Ragman, I agree that there is no failure in God.  But the problem is that you are telling me that He has failed.  A.W. Pink states it better that I can:
  • How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being.

    To declare that the Creator's original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise in Eden and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the bounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam's fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Writ, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain" (Psa. 76:10). In a word, to deny the Sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical terminus, is to arrive at blank atheism.

    The Sovereignty of the God of Scripture is absolute, irresistible, infinite. When we say that God is Sovereign we affirm His right to govern the universe which He has made for His own glory, just as He pleases. We affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i. e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. We affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.

Of course not.  I affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i. e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. I affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.



I am not suggesting that the Holy Spirit is not at work.  It is dishonest of you to even claim that.  You know that my complain is not that the Holy Spirit is not working, but that according to your view He is failing.  And that is entirely different.

I affirm that the Holy Spirit is doing absolutely whatever it takes to bring the Elect of God to repentance and belief, even splitting the heavens apart if need to knock someone off of their spiritual high horse.

As far as the rest of your comments, I think you need to go back and directly address this verse:
  • Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Woody:

I'm not saying that God has failed.  I'm not saying that God wanted to save all mankind but cannot.  That is your assumption.  I'm saying that God wants to save all mankind and has reconciled all mankind unto Himself in His Son.  This is a matter of the deity of Christ.  Either Christ created all things (truly all things, not just some things, or some of every kind, but all things) and that all things consist and are held together in Him therefore affecting all things in whatever becomes of Him, or all things were not created by Him and are not held together in Him.  This is a denial of the deity of Christ.  You and I certainly don't know who will be saved and who will not be.  And it is not obviously apparent that the  "great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity".  This is yours and his assumption.  Eternity is a long time, pain and suffering are effective teachers, and the Lord's love truly, truly does endure forever.  Not just until Christ comes back and not just for those yo call the elect.  His love endures forever.  His love endures forever.  His love endures forever.  Even though we are faithless He remains faithful.  Of course He is the potter and we are the clay.  He has made some this way and some that.  He has some born into this culture and some into that.  But His love for humanity is unending, His desire to embrace all is undying.  He is far less concerned that anyone would consider Him weak, or impotent or they might pity Him.  He is more concerned with the good of others than His own glory.

You did suggest that the Holy Spirit is not working to communicate the truth of Christ where there is no verbal preaching you said, it "actually took Him 1500 years to finally get missionaries to the New World.  He even prevented an apostle from preaching to certain people.  I don't remember how long it too Him to get around to going down under."  What are you implying if you are not implying that the Holy Spirit is in all places testifying to the truth of God in Christ, whether there is verbal preaching or not?  You limit God to the preaching of men. 


Of course God was not taken by surprise in Eden, where would you get such an idea?  He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  He is the One who predestined before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love, adopted as sons and daughters in Christ.

Now my question a third time, would you father children for the express purpose of them being tormented eternally in hell so that people would in turn say, "Glory to Woody, he sends his own children to hell, what wonderful justice?"  If you cannot, you are saying that you are better than God, if you can, you are sick!  Which is my point, the Calvinism that you profess is unbiblical, unspiritual, unethical, sick and demented.  You can talk about election, sovereignty, grace and all of your other pet topics and terms.  But when it gets right down to it you are saying that God created people, like your children, for the sole purpose of tormenting them in hell for eternity for the express purpose of bringing glory to Himself.  Wow what wonderful justice.  Woody, that's sick!  That is like men fathering children for the express purpose of taking them to be murdered at an abortion clinic.  In fact it is worse!  For at least the physical death a poor child experiences is only physical death.  You're suggesting that the death and torment God places on people is unending unrelenting.  That is sick, sick, sick! 

Now, would you do that to your children?
 
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Today at 12:39 AM Ragman said this in Post #77



Woody:

I'm not saying that God has failed.  I'm not saying that God wanted to save all mankind but cannot.  That is your assumption.  I'm saying that God wants to save all mankind and has reconciled all mankind unto Himself in His Son.  This is a matter of the deity of Christ.  Either Christ created all things (truly all things, not just some things, or some of every kind, but all things) and that all things consist and are held together in Him therefore affecting all things in whatever becomes of Him, or all things were not created by Him and are not held together in Him.  This is a denial of the deity of Christ.  You and I certainly don't know who will be saved and who will not be.  And it is not obviously apparent that the  "great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity".  This is yours and his assumption.  Eternity is a long time, pain and suffering are effective teachers, and the Lord's love truly, truly does endure forever.  Not just until Christ comes back and not just for those yo call the elect.  His love endures forever.  His love endures forever.  His love endures forever.  Even though we are faithless He remains faithful.  Of course He is the potter and we are the clay.  He has made some this way and some that.  He has some born into this culture and some into that.  But His love for humanity is unending, His desire to embrace all is undying.  He is far less concerned that anyone would consider Him weak, or impotent or they might pity Him.  He is more concerned with the good of others than His own glory.

You did suggest that the Holy Spirit is not working to communicate the truth of Christ where there is no verbal preaching you said, it "actually took Him 1500 years to finally get missionaries to the New World.  He even prevented an apostle from preaching to certain people.  I don't remember how long it too Him to get around to going down under."  What are you implying if you are not implying that the Holy Spirit is in all places testifying to the truth of God in Christ, whether there is verbal preaching or not?  You limit God to the preaching of men. 


Of course God was not taken by surprise in Eden, where would you get such an idea?  He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.  He is the One who predestined before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love, adopted as sons and daughters in Christ.

Now my question a third time, would you father children for the express purpose of them being tormented eternally in hell so that people would in turn say, "Glory to Woody, he sends his own children to hell, what wonderful justice?"  If you cannot, you are saying that you are better than God, if you can, you are sick!  Which is my point, the Calvinism that you profess is unbiblical, unspiritual, unethical, sick and demented.  You can talk about election, sovereignty, grace and all of your other pet topics and terms.  But when it gets right down to it you are saying that God created people, like your children, for the sole purpose of tormenting them in hell for eternity for the express purpose of bringing glory to Himself.  Wow what wonderful justice.  Woody, that's sick!  That is like men fathering children for the express purpose of taking them to be murdered at an abortion clinic.  In fact it is worse!  For at least the physical death a poor child experiences is only physical death.  You're suggesting that the death and torment God places on people is unending unrelenting.  That is sick, sick, sick! 

Now, would you do that to your children?


 

  

 

is this the god and father of our lord jesus christ?

 

"the god that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathesome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked:  his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire;  he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venemous serpent is in ours."   (jonathan edwards, enfield connecticut,  july 8, 1741)


 

bird
 
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bird

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11th April 2003 at 11:47 PM bird said this in Post #79




 

  

 

is this the god and father of our lord jesus christ?

 

"the god that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathesome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked:  his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire;  he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venemous serpent is in ours."   (jonathan edwards, enfield connecticut,  july 8, 1741)


 

bird


 

again, i ask, "is this the god and father of our lord jesus christ?"

 

bird
 
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