Today at 10:16 AM CCWoody said this in Post #71
Ragman, I agree that there is no failure in God. But the problem is that you are telling me that He has failed. A.W. Pink states it better that I can:
- How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being.
To declare that the Creator's original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise in Eden and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the bounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam's fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Writ, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain" (Psa. 76:10). In a word, to deny the Sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical terminus, is to arrive at blank atheism.
The Sovereignty of the God of Scripture is absolute, irresistible, infinite. When we say that God is Sovereign we affirm His right to govern the universe which He has made for His own glory, just as He pleases. We affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i. e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. We affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.
Of course not. I affirm that His right is the right of the Potter over the clay, i. e., that He may mold that clay into whatsoever form He chooses, fashioning out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. I affirm that He is under no rule or law outside of His own will and nature, that God is a law unto Himself, and that He is under no obligation to give an account of His matters to any.
I am not suggesting that the Holy Spirit is not at work. It is dishonest of you to even claim that. You know that my complain is not that the Holy Spirit is not working, but that according to your view He is failing. And that is entirely different.
I affirm that the Holy Spirit is doing absolutely whatever it takes to bring the Elect of God to repentance and belief, even splitting the heavens apart if need to knock someone off of their spiritual high horse.
As far as the rest of your comments, I think you need to go back and directly address this verse:
- Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
Woody:
I'm not saying that God has failed. I'm not saying that God wanted to save all mankind but cannot. That is your assumption. I'm saying that God wants to save all mankind and has reconciled all mankind unto Himself in His Son. This is a matter of the deity of Christ. Either Christ created all things (truly all things, not just some things, or some of every kind, but all things) and that all things consist and are held together in Him therefore affecting all things in whatever becomes of Him, or all things were not created by Him and are not held together in Him. This is a denial of the deity of Christ. You and I certainly don't know who will be saved and who will not be. And it is not obviously apparent that the "great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity". This is yours and his assumption. Eternity is a long time, pain and suffering are effective teachers, and the Lord's love truly, truly does endure forever. Not just until Christ comes back and not just for those yo call the elect. His love endures forever. His love endures forever. His love endures forever. Even though we are faithless He remains faithful. Of course He is the potter and we are the clay. He has made some this way and some that. He has some born into this culture and some into that. But His love for humanity is unending, His desire to embrace all is undying. He is far less concerned that anyone would consider Him weak, or impotent or they might pity Him. He is more concerned with the good of others than His own glory.
You did suggest that the Holy Spirit is not working to communicate the truth of Christ where there is no verbal preaching you said, it "actually took Him 1500 years to finally get missionaries to the New World. He even prevented an apostle from preaching to certain people. I don't remember how long it too Him to get around to going down under." What are you implying if you are not implying that the Holy Spirit is in all places testifying to the truth of God in Christ, whether there is verbal preaching or not? You limit God to the preaching of men.
Of course God was not taken by surprise in Eden, where would you get such an idea? He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. He is the One who predestined before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love, adopted as sons and daughters in Christ.
Now my question a third time, would you father children for the express purpose of them being tormented eternally in hell so that people would in turn say, "Glory to Woody, he sends his own children to hell, what wonderful justice?" If you cannot, you are saying that you are better than God, if you can, you are sick! Which is my point, the Calvinism that you profess is unbiblical, unspiritual, unethical, sick and demented. You can talk about election, sovereignty, grace and all of your other pet topics and terms. But when it gets right down to it you are saying that God created people, like your children, for the sole purpose of tormenting them in hell for eternity for the express purpose of bringing glory to Himself. Wow what wonderful justice. Woody, that's sick! That is like men fathering children for the express purpose of taking them to be murdered at an abortion clinic. In fact it is worse! For at least the physical death a poor child experiences is only physical death. You're suggesting that the death and torment God places on people is unending unrelenting. That is sick, sick, sick!
Now, would you do that to your children?