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WHY IS DANIEL 9:24-27 ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT PASSAGES IN SCRIPTURE ?

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claninja

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Please provide scripture where paul confirms earthly land promises to the body of Christ
 
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Micah888

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claninja said:
Please provide scripture where paul confirms earthly land promises to the body of Christ
Click to expand...
The "land promises" are a given in the passage below (from Romans 11).

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [please study Ezekiel for the connection between the land and the redemption of Israel]

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [the "fathers" being the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob]

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [without a change of mind by God]
 
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claninja

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There is no promise of land in here in the verses you quoted. Only the promise to take away sins. You'll have to provide verses that specifically mention that earthly land promises apply to the body of Christ.

The promises given to Abraham referred to Christ, just as the old covenant was a shadow of Christ

Galatians 3:16,19
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ. Why then was the Law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred.


Christ is the fulfillment of all the promises of God

2 Corinthians 1:20
For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.
 
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claninja

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Micah888 said:
That's only because you don't want to see it. Did you read and study Ezekiel before responding?
Click to expand...

You stated Paul confirms the earthly land promises. Please provide scripture for this. To prove your point, you'll have to provide objective scripture where paul states that the earthly land promises are inherited by the body of Christ. providing scripture with your own interpretation is not sufficient, as we will disagree on the interpretation.

IF you are going to debate with someone who has a different view than you, providing your own interpretation is not sufficient to convince the other party, as they will just disagree with your interpretation. Now if there is a verse where paul literally states that the earthly land of israel is the inheritance of the body of Christ, then you would have a solid argument.

But as it is, Paul states the exact opposite in Galatians 4:24-31

These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,

you who never bore a child;

shout for joy and cry aloud,

you who were never in labor;

because more are the children of the desolate woman

than of her who has a husband.”e

28Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”f 31Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
 
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Micah888

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claninja said:
You stated Paul confirms the earthly land promises. Please provide scripture for this.
Click to expand...
I did provide the Scripture for it, and I will provide it again:
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [the "fathers" being the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob]

What does this verse mean? Paul was alluding to the Abrahamic Covenant, which included the promise of the land (which was reiterated to Isaac, and Jacob) and would extend from the Nile to the Euphrates (not accomplished as yet). Please start at Genesis 15 and go through to Genesis 32.

These are the words of Abraham:
The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence. (Gen 24:7)

These are the words of Isaac:
And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4)
 
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BABerean2

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Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
(The verse above is a quote from the promise of the New Covenant found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.)

Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


You seem to have missed the New Covenant found below.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

(NKJV)
.


 
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Micah888

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BABerean2 said:
You seem to have missed the New Covenant found below.
Click to expand...
Not really. I requested that Ezekiel be consulted. So here in the New Covenant along with the land (Ezek 36):

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. [first mention of land]

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [New Covenant]

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [New Covenant]

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [New Covenant]

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. [second mention of land]
 
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claninja

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They are beloved for the sake of the land promises? Again, I disagree with your interpretation, so please provide specific scipture where paul confirms the earthly land promises to the body of Christ


Micah888 said:
What does this verse mean? Paul was alluding to the Abrahamic Covenant,
Click to expand...

It means exactly what is says, the jews are beloved for the fathers' sake.

Micah888 said:
which included the promise of the land (which was reiterated to Isaac, and Jacob) and would extend from the Nile to the Euphrates (not accomplished as yet).
Click to expand...

Actually, it was accomplished:

Joshua 21:43
So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.


Paul explains the truth of the 'seed'

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.


The writer of hebrews also explains this:

Hebrews 11:13-16
All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
 
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Micah888

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claninja said:
They are beloved for the sake of the land promises?
Click to expand...
There's no need to deliberately misunderstand the Scriptures. Please see my post above. Paul did not have to mention the land since "the fathers' sake" covers that and everything else in the Abrahamic Covenant.
 
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claninja

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Micah888 said:
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. [first mention of land]
Click to expand...

Fulfilled

2 Chronicles 36:22-23
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia—in order to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah—the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying, 23“Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, ‘The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever there is among you of all His people, may the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up!’”

Micah888 said:
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [New Covenant]
Click to expand...

Fulfilled:

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


Fulfilled

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Ephesians 4:22-23
You were taught to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be renewed in the spirit of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holines

Micah888 said:
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. [second mention of land]
Click to expand...

Were the Jews not in Jerusalem, when christ initiated the new covenant and sent the holy spirit?
 
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claninja

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Micah888 said:
There's no need to deliberately misunderstand the Scriptures. Please see my post above. Paul did not have to mention the land since "the fathers' sake" covers that and everything else in the Abrahamic Covenant.
Click to expand...

Me not agreeing with your interpretation, is not a deliberate misunderstanding of scripture.

IF you want to have a serious discussion, then please provide specific scripture with the land promises to the body of Christ and not your own interpretation, which I may not agree with. If you don't want to do that, then our discussion will not go much further and is rather fruitless.
 
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BABerean2

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And where is that land?

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.



Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

.
 
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Davy

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That's where many make wrong assumptions of what those Olivet signs are about. They are the Seals of Revelation 6. That's why the Seals follow the order of those signs Jesus gave upon the Mount of Olives, the very last one being that of His second coming. The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are about signs for the final generation that will see Jesus' 2nd coming. Every generation since Christ's Apostles have looked for Jesus' return and have not seen it. It continues today.


The only sign one can allude to being fulfilled which Jesus gave there is the one about the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. And even that 'not one stone atop another' is not fulfilled in the absolute, because there's still stones atop one another standing on today's Temple Mount, like the Dome of The Rock.

Famines, earthquakes, persecutions, and false Christs, wars and rumors of wars, have not yet stopped today. And it was the opposite... of wars and rumors of war that Jesus was pointing to about the end of this world, i.e., a time of peace, the "Peace and safety" Paul forewarned of in 1 Thess.5. That certainly didn't happen in the days of the Apostles, nor has it happened yet today. Wars are still going on.

Concerning false messiahs, the Jewish historian Josephus did report about their existing in that time, but that's not about the subject of the pseudo-Christos Jesus warned of in that Olivet Discourse. In Matthew 24:4-5 Jesus was warning of 'many' false ones coming that say they are Christ. But in Matthew 24:23-26 Jesus was being specific as to a singular pseudochristos coming to work great signs and wonders that IF possible, would deceive even His very elect. No false messiah has ever come and done that yet; our Lord Jesus was pointing to the Antichrist that's to come at the end of this present world, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, the "man of sin" Paul pointed to in 2 Thess.2, etc. And the pope still doesn't fit that billing, even though the Reformers thought it was him.

I'm sorry, i don't quite understand. Did I not attempt to answer your questions in my post #271? I quoted your questions 1 and 2 and did respond to them.

I addressed it in post #271. Now you may not agree, but I did address it:
Click to expand...

Well, you really didn't address the context of those Matt.24:33-34 verses about the generation that would see ALL those things, because all those signs you listed have not happened yet, especially the sign of Jesus' 2nd coming, which definitely... is still yet to occur today.

You listed:
"1.) wars and rumors of wars" - it's popular to leave off Jesus' last phrase in the Matt.24:6 verse, "but the end is not yet". That's the actual sign He was giving there, i.e., that the very end will be a time of world peace when all wars have stopped. Have all wars stopped today? No, obviously. That sign have never been fulfilled yet.

"2.) persectution" - this was fulfilled in the Apostle's day? No, of course not. Some of the worst persecutions in world history are going on against Christians in the far east, the middle east, and Africa at the hands of Islamic radicals. Jesus also gave in His Olivet Discourse with this sign, some brethren being delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan to give a Testimony by The Holy Spirit, an event that is especially set for the very end of this world per the Book of Joel involving the cloven tongue.

"3.) famines" - in the Book of Amos, God prophesied through Amos how in the last days there would be a famine, but not for bread, but for looking everywhere for the Word of God and not finding it (Amos 8). But are there still literal famines today? Definitely.

"4.) earthquakes" - these have been fulfilled today?? Afraid not. Just in my generation the number of earthquakes have increased, and that's while man has had the technology to detect them.

"5.) pestilence" - same with this, where earthquakes happen, there's famines and pestilence. Still with us in the world today. But Jesus gave these things in comparison to a time of trouble on earth so great that there will never be a time like it again. We haven't yet reached that level He was speaking of. It's still to come.

"6.) false messiahs/prophets" - this I already explained. One point further though: in 1 John 2:18 he mentioned the coming of the Antichrist, and that there already were 'many antichrists'. Jesus covered that point too with the contrast between Matt.24:6 and Matt.24:23-26. The many that would come saying they are Christ represents the "many antichrists". That's still on-going today. Mooney, et al have claimed to be Christ. But the latter Matt.24:23-26 verses is about a singular pseudo-Christ that's to work great signs and wonders powerful enough in deception that it would almost... deceive even Christ's own elect. That's the "man of sin" role Paul warned of in 2 Thess.2, a specific Antichrist coming at the end of this world. It's the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward.

"7. Destruction of the temple/jerusalem" - this I've already covered. The Dome of the Rock still stands on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem today, showing the not one stone atop another was not fulfilled in absolute. One can use the 70 A.D. destruction to point fulfillment, but in context of the other signs, it's obvious it's really for a future fulfillment, especially seen when today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem build the next temple for the end of this world, and start up old covenant sacrifices again.

"8.) Son of man coming on the clouds with power" - it's not just about His coming in the clouds; it's also about His GATHERING OF THE CHURCH. Have you been gathered to Him yet? No, of course not. His Church is STILL not gathered to Him today; He is yet to return to gather His Church, and He will. So obviously, this sign has never been fulfilled either.


Now the Matt.24:33-34 phrases about "all these things" having to be fulfilled in the generation that will see all of them, and that generation not passing until all is fulfilled, means all... of those signs have to be fulfilled in a single generation, and that generation will be the one which will see (experience) Jesus' second coming, because it's not only about physically 'seeing' Jesus come in the clouds, it's also about the gathering of His Church like He covered there. If one says we have already been gathered to Him today, then that is madness, and The Word of God is not in that person.
 
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BABerean2

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You are talking about the remains of Roman Fort Antonia.
It was not destroyed during 70 AD, because it was built by the Romans.


Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.



.
 
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claninja

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Luke 21:6 As for what YOU see HERE, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

Luke 19:41-44 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it and said, “If YOU, even YOU, had only known on this day what would bring YOU peace—but now it is hidden from YOUR eyes. The days will come upon YOU when YOUR enemies will build an embankment against YOU and encircle YOU and hem YOU in on every side. They will dash YOU to the ground, YOU and the children within YOUR walls. They will not leave one stone on another,, BECAUSE YOU did not recognize the time of God’s coming to YOU.”

Matthew 24:2 Do YOU see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell YOU, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Davy said:
Famines, earthquakes, persecutions, and false Christs, wars and rumors of wars, have not yet stopped today. And it was the opposite... of wars and rumors of war that Jesus was pointing to about the end of this world
Click to expand...

Jesus did not say those things would stop at the end, only that they (the disciples) would see things leading up to the end

What is the 'end'? And why did the disciples associate the destruction of the temple with the 'end'?

Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen (temple destruction), and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Because of Daniel:

Daniel 9:26 people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed

So the 'end' doesn't have to do with the end of the 'kosmos' (greek for world), but the end of 'aionos' (age). Which has to do with the destruction of the Jerusalem and it's temple, which is the whole context of the matthew discourse:

Matthew 24:2 Do YE not see all these (temple buildings right in front of them)? verily I say to YOU, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.’

Davy said:
a time of peace, the "Peace and safety" Paul forewarned of in 1 Thess.5. That certainly didn't happen in the days of the Apostles, nor has it happened yet today. Wars are still going on.
Click to expand...

The Jews were living in relative safety before the Jewish Roman War. They continued with eating, drinking, festivals, and giving in marriage before they were destroyed in the war. Christians, on the other hand were not as easily living in safety due to Jewish persecution. And Jesus never promised his followers earthly peace and safety.

Matthew 24:36-38
And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known — not even the messengers of the heavens — except my Father only; and as the days of Noah — so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man; for as they were, in the days before the flood, eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, till the day Noah entered into the ark

Davy said:
Concerning false messiahs, the Jewish historian Josephus did report about their existing in that time, but that's not about the subject of the pseudo-Christos Jesus warned of in that Olivet Discourse.
Click to expand...

History disagrees:

Matthew 24:24-26
24for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen. 25Lo, I did tell you beforehand. ‘If therefore they may say to you, Lo, in the wilderness he is, ye may not go forth; lo, in the inner chambers, ye may not believe

According to Eusebius:
An Egyptian Jew; one of the numerous magicians and false prophets that arose during this century. He prophesied that Jerusalem, which had made itself a heathen city, would be destroyed by God, who would throw down the walls as he had the walls of Jericho, and then he and his followers, as the true Israel and the army of God, would gain the victory over the oppressors and rule the world. For this purpose he collected his followers upon the Mount of Olives, from whence they were to witness the falling of the walls and begin their attack.

Additionally:
"Josephus relates these events in the second book of his History. [466] But it is worth while comparing the account of the Egyptian given here with that contained in the Acts of the Apostles. In the time of Felix it was said to Paul by the centurion in Jerusalem, when the multitude of the Jews raised a disturbance against the apostle, "Art not thou he who before these days made an uproar, and led out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?" [467] These are the events which took place in the time of Felix. [468]"
 
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claninja

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The CONTEXT is the signs leading up to the destruction of the temple (the 'end')

The disciples lived through wars and rumors of wars. Where does Jesus say that wars stop a the 'end of the aionos'? Where does Jesus mention the end of the 'kosmos' (greek for world).

So yes, this was fulfilled, as there were wars and rumors of wars leading up to the temple destruction


The disciples were persecuted before the temple destruction


The disciples lived through famine before the temple destruction:

Acts 11:28 And one of them named Agabus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the land (this took place in the days of Claudius).

Davy said:
.) earthquakes" - these have been fulfilled today?? Afraid not. Just in my generation the number of earthquakes have increased, and that's while man has had the technology to detect them.
Click to expand...

An earthquake destroyed Colossae, Laodicea, and Hierapolis in around 60AD, this occurred before the temple destruction


Many false prophets arose before the destruction of the temple: simon the sorcer, the eygptian,etc.....


1.) the wailing wall is not a part of the temple buildings
2.) archeology shows the wailing wall was built later.

In 363 AD, the Jews tried to rebuild the temple. There was a massive earthquake and the ground opened up destroying the project and killing many people.


Depends on what you mean by gathered. Am I in heaven yet? No, but I would argue that the resurrection occurred around the time the temple was destroyed, and the Old covenant ended, officially removing the power of the law:

1 Corinthians 15:54-56
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law


I completely understand why you change the meaning of the text to be about a generation 2000+ years later. If the Coming of Christ is a global event marked by the end of the world (not age), and if Jesus is truly talking about the people in front of him, he is a false prophet because the world did not end during his disciples generation.

The problem arises when the disciples are preaching that they are living in the last times. Why did they believe that?

However, I would argue that God 'came' in judgment multiple times in the OT against nations, using other nations. So maybe we misunderstand the coming of the son of man
 
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Davy

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Let's stop there for a second. Jesus specifically said when you see ALL THESE THINGS (Matt.24:33-34). He didn't say when you just see Jerusalem and the temple destroyed. He pointed to their seeing His second coming with that also, so did they? No, of course not. That evidence right there automatically presupposes He was not only talking to them, but to His whole Church, even for those who will see His future return.

What you're trying to do is to FORCE a doctrine of men into the Scripture that will not fit. So you keep prying, twisting, trying to find a way to make your doctrine gel, but it won't, because it would mean believing that Jesus Christ's future 2nd coming had already happened back in the days of His Apostles, which is a falsehood doctrine of devils. The Matt.24:33-34 verses serve as an anchor point, affirming that it's the last generation that will see ALL THESE THINGS, meaning ALL those signs He gave there upon the Mount of Olives to His disciples, and... to us upon whom the end of the world is come:

1 Cor 10:11-12
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
KJV
 
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claninja

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Davy said:
Jesus specifically said when you see ALL THESE THINGS (Matt.24:33-34).
Click to expand...

Correct, when Jesus was privately with his disciples, he told them 'when YOU see ALL THESE THINGS'.

Davy said:
He didn't say when you just see Jerusalem and the temple destroyed.
Click to expand...

No one is arguing that he said JUST when you see Jerusalem and the temple destroyed. All the signs, with the exception of the coming of the son of man in the clouds, occur BEFORE the temple destruction. Do you agree?

Jesus appears to be giving them signs to watch for that lead up to the temple destruction, no?

Davy said:
He pointed to their seeing His second coming with that also, so did they? No, of course not.
Click to expand...

He pointed out that they would see his coming and not just in this verse, but also in:

Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”



If Jesus said all this to his apostles, I have faith that they did see this, For Jesus' promises are true.

He even said to the Pharisees:

Matthew 26:64
Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”g

Davy said:
That evidence right there automatically presupposes He was not only talking to them, but to His whole Church, even for those who will see His future return.
Click to expand...

It actually points out that you may not fully understand what the sign of the coming of the son of man on the clouds means or how OT language works. I suggest reading Daniel 7:13-14, which corresponds to the saints receiving the kingdom at the end of Daniel 7.

Davy said:
What you're trying to do is to FORCE a doctrine of men into the Scripture that will not fit.
Click to expand...

1.)Did I have to change the part where Jesus points out the temple buildings, right in front of the disciples, and says not one stone will atop another? No, I didn't
But you have to change it to a 3rd temple, and not the temple right in front of them, to fit your belief.

2.)Did I have to change the part of end of the 'age' to mean end of the world? No, I didn't.
But you have to change aionos to mean the literal whole earth (kosmos) to fit your belief.

3.)Did I have to the change the part where Jesus says the disciples will see signs of wars and rumors of wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, false messiahs, and persecution before the temple destruction? No, I didn't.
But you have to change the meaning of Jesus saying 'you' to not mean the disciples Jesus is talking to privately, but about a different generation some 2000+ years later.

4.) Did I have to change the meaning of the "coming of the son of man on clouds" to mean anything other than the coming of the son of man coming on the clouds in Daniel 7:13-14? No, I didn't. But you have to in order fit your belief.

5.) Did I have to change the timing of the coming of the vineyard owner in the parable of the wicked tenants and change that the Pharisees knew Jesus was talking about them? No, I didn't. But you have to in order to fit your belief.

6.) Did I have to change the identity of the citizens, who didn't want the Jesus to be their king, to a future generation when the king returns and destroys them in the parable of the 10 minas? No I didn't. But you have to in order to fit your belief.

Davy said:
So you keep prying, twisting, trying to find a way to make your doctrine gel,
Click to expand...

Compared to me, you have had to twist a lot more of the Olivet discourse to fit your belief. So take the plank out your eye, brother, before pointing out the speck in mine.

Davy said:
The Matt.24:33-34 verses serve as an anchor point, affirming that it's the last generation that will see ALL THESE THINGS
Click to expand...

The olivet discourse is why the disciples believed the were living in the last days, and that Jesus was coming soon. Throughout the book of Acts, many of these signs are fulfilled.


Are you saying Paul didn't mean 'us' as in him and his generation, but a future 2000+ generation?
 
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