Why is communism/socialism so popular..

[Nietzscheiswrong]

in countries who are catholic/orthodox?

USSR (now Russia+Belarus+Georgia+Ukraine+many others)
Cechoslovakia(now 2 countries)
Yugoslavia(now many)
Bulgaria
Romania
Greece
Italy
Spain
Portugal
France
Brazil
Argentina
All south america
Cuba

And the list goes on.

Whereas it is virtually non-existant in protestant/anglican countries:
US
UK
Germany
Scandinavia

Why do you think communism has become so popular in catholic countries? The socio-economic teachings of communism/socialism and catholicism are the same they both come from the OT and judaism (catholicism is 80%OT hence judaism).

Marx was the grandson of a rabbi. His is just messianic judaism without God nor Christ of course. That is in a nutshell what communism/socialism is. The root of it.

In short to destroy communism/socialism the catholic church must stop its demonization of capitalism and its franciscan theology of money=devil's dirt.
Without money there would be no charity hence no church!

Now most catholics/orthodox turn communists because they see the social justice of the church in socialism/communism. Lenin knew this full well and hence wanted a cooperation. He knew that the religious would become communist eventually. Which they did. Many priests embraced communism/socialism and liberation theology.

What are your thoughts about this? It has been THE problem of last century and continues today.

2 people talking about economics both socialist/communist and anticapitalist. Then when questioned do you believe in God 1 yes 1 no. 1 a catholic...

-_-'

 

[Enkil]

in countries who are catholic/orthodox?

USSR (now Russia+Belarus+Georgia+Ukraine+many others)
Cechoslovakia(now 2 countries)
Yugoslavia(now many)
Bulgaria
Romania
Greece
Italy
Spain
Portugal
France
Brazil
Argentina
All south america
Cuba

And the list goes on.

Whereas it is virtually non-existant in protestant/anglican countries:
US
UK
Germany
Scandinavia

Why do you think communism has become so popular in catholic countries? The socio-economic teachings of communism/socialism and catholicism are the same they both come from the OT and judaism (catholicism is 80%OT hence judaism).

Marx was the grandson of a rabbi. His is just messianic judaism without God nor Christ of course. That is in a nutshell what communism/socialism is. The root of it.

In short to destroy communism/socialism the catholic church must stop its demonization of capitalism and its franciscan theology of money=devil's dirt.
Without money there would be no charity hence no church!

Now most catholics/orthodox turn communists because they see the social justice of the church in socialism/communism. Lenin knew this full well and hence wanted a cooperation. He knew that the religious would become communist eventually. Which they did. Many priests embraced communism/socialism and liberation theology.

What are your thoughts about this? It has been THE problem of last century and continues today.

2 people talking about economics both socialist/communist and anticapitalist. Then when questioned do you believe in God 1 yes 1 no. 1 a catholic...

-_-'

The Russian Orthodox church is heavily infiltrated by "former" KGB Priests. Its current patriarch is a known KGB member. Bad example to bring them up.

As for Communism, can you actually quote any Catholic doctrine that supports it? The Church has historically condemned Communism and even helped in its downfall. Of course, I think that the communist bloc has not fallen, but merely changed its name. The "former" communists are still ruling in Russia.

 

[MKJ]

Well, I think you need to separate out your list some more. I would put the really communist, Orthodox (mostly) countries into one group. The things that strike me about these countries do not relate so much to Orthodoxy as they do to other things, like having a very autocratic monarchy, and a large peasant under-class. (Also things one sees in China, or even Cuba to some extent.) What relation this might have to Orthodoxy I don't know.

The rest of your list is IMO difficult. I am not sure I would count most of them as really socialist, but rather as mixed economies. And I would have included Scandinavia in there as well as Germany. So I am wondering why are you classing them as socialist - and what would you describe the countries like the UK or the USA? Perhaps you are thinking of something different than I am.

One thing I would say is that some thinkers have understood capitalism to be a Protestant idea - I think Calvin is particularly thought to have been influential this way, for example if I recall he felt that usury in some forms was ok, something that had been largely forbidden in Catholicism at that time.

Hillare Belloc argued that the Catholic countries were slowly moving from a pagan to a just and really Catholic style of economy which was becoming evident as the Middle Ages moved on. Protestantism, he said, brought the capitalist model, which was essentially un-Catholic. That is, capitalism in his view is an economic system that follows a Protestant, and even Calvinist, logic.

Now Belloc ultimately became a Distributist, which means he rejected both capitalism and socialism - he saw them of two versions of the same mistake. But if we look at the kind of model distributists advocated, it looks most like the kinds of mixed economies we see in Europe today (though not precisely like them.)

So, I would suggest the reason that Catholic nations may tend to have these mixed economies is that they most closely reflect Catholic theology.

 

[Enkil]

Well, I think you need to separate out your list some more. I would put the really communist, Orthodox (mostly) countries into one group. The things that strike me about these countries do not relate so much to Orthodoxy as they do to other things, like having a very autocratic monarchy, and a large peasant under-class. (Also things one sees in China, or even Cuba to some extent.) What relation this might have to Orthodoxy I don't know.

The rest of your list is IMO difficult. I am not sure I would count most of them as really socialist, but rather as mixed economies. And I would have included Scandinavia in there as well as Germany. So I am wondering why are you classing them as socialist - and what would you describe the countries like the UK or the USA? Perhaps you are thinking of something different than I am.

One thing I would say is that some thinkers have understood capitalism to be a Protestant idea - I think Calvin is particularly thought to have been influential this way, for example if I recall he felt that usury in some forms was ok, something that had been largely forbidden in Catholicism at that time.

Hillare Belloc argued that the Catholic countries were slowly moving from a pagan to a just and really Catholic style of economy which was becoming evident as the Middle Ages moved on. Protestantism, he said, brought the capitalist model, which was essentially un-Catholic. That is, capitalism in his view is an economic system that follows a Protestant, and even Calvinist, logic.

Now Belloc ultimately became a Distributist, which means he rejected both capitalism and socialism - he saw them of two versions of the same mistake. But if we look at the kind of model distributists advocated, it looks most like the kinds of mixed economies we see in Europe today (though not precisely like them.)

So, I would suggest the reason that Catholic nations may tend to have these mixed economies is that they most closely reflect Catholic theology.

I recall reading a great article that actually said that capitalism was an invention of Catholicism, originating from the monasteries and other church orders and structures.

 

[kolimarfey]

starik31 - What Has Gone with "der Schatten des Kommunismus"?

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

The Russian Orthodox church is heavily infiltrated by "former" KGB Priests. Its current patriarch is a known KGB member. Bad example to bring them up.

As for Communism, can you actually quote any Catholic doctrine that supports it? The Church has historically condemned Communism and even helped in its downfall. Of course, I think that the communist bloc has not fallen, but merely changed its name. The "former" communists are still ruling in Russia.

I put the orthodox church because it teaches the same things as the catholic church regarding the economy and society.
I can't quote any doctrine no. Of course as communist is atheist and its idea is producing the utopic heaven on earth society that the messiah was thought to bring in the OT.

Communism theologically speaking is the antithesis of catholicism and chrisitanity in general. But economically and socially speaking it is the same as catholicism because its roots are from the OT.

Social justice. Working class etc.

thats why I wrote that priests in south america for example became communist/socialist and theologists invented the liberation theology i.e. that marxist ideas in the economic and socio-political sphere were the Christ society that priests preach about every Sunday.

The fact that orthodox priests are communist only strengthens my belief.
That communism sprung up only because it had a common cultural basis with the church teachings on economics and society. That being the utopic heaven on earth perfect society that the prophets in the OT said that the messiah would have brought.

China was responsible for the other asian countries falling to communism and china fell thanks to the USSR. Hence no communism in ussr no communism period.

 

[Enkil]

I put the orthodox church because it teaches the same things as the catholic church regarding the economy and society.
I can't quote any doctrine no. Of course as communist is atheist and its idea is producing the utopic heaven on earth society that the messiah was thought to bring in the OT.

Communism theologically speaking is the antithesis of catholicism and chrisitanity in general. But economically and socially speaking it is the same as catholicism because its roots are from the OT.

Social justice. Working class etc.

thats why I wrote that priests in south america for example became communist/socialist and theologists invented the liberation theology i.e. that marxist ideas in the economic and socio-political sphere were the Christ society that priests preach about every Sunday.

The fact that orthodox priests are communist only strengthens my belief.
That communism sprung up only because it had a common cultural basis with the church teachings on economics and society. That being the utopic heaven on earth perfect society that the prophets in the OT said that the messiah would have brought.

China was responsible for the other asian countries falling to communism and china fell thanks to the USSR. Hence no communism in ussr no communism period.

According to some KGB or Soviet Bloc defectors, Liberation theology was a direct invention of the KGB which was pushed through front groups into Christianity in South America. (In other words, it originated from heresy directly planned and carried out by a foreign power!) This theology has been condemned by the Pope in the past. I can only see a very small, insignificant connection between communism and Christianity, and that only in the communists twisting of a divine ideal of charity and love into a perverse corruption.

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

Some nitty gritty facts:

Judaism OT -----> messianic judaism/christianity ------> second coming (technically speaking its the third) theology (heaven on earth aint here yet..)

"Not so good stuff"
Judaism OT -----> messianic heaven on earth made by men i.e. communism.
Judaism OT ------> Israel fulfilling prophecies i.e. zionism
Secular jews have invented these. One is transformed into prophecy for 2nd coming protestant jibberish.

So what we're witnessing is a clash between jews (yeah christianity is jews for jesus! We are 80% jewish i.e. old testament weighs for 80% of the bible..) and between 2 Messiahs. 1 of them must be false. Aint it armaggeddon?

Just asking don't know.

 

[S.ilvio]

I'm a Socialist and Catholic. I see little contradiction to be honest.

In fact I see Jesus as the original Socialist..

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Socialism has been condemned by the Holy Roman Catholic Church. No Roman Catholic may be a Socialist or a Communist while remaining in good standing with the Holy Roman Catholic Church that Christ established; indeed, membership in such carries the penalty of excommunication. It would be exceedingly imprudent and ill-advised move to risk one's immortal soul over adherence to a mere political party.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Jesus was the founder of the Catholic Church; he established primitive Catholic social teaching; which is communitarian in nature: never communist. The Economic position of the Roman Catholic Church includes that of Subsidiarity and is most closely aligned with the economic type of "Distributism;" especially as articulated via Pope Leo XIII's "Rerum Novarum" and the writings of G.K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc on the same.

Recall that Christ's Holy Roman Catholic Church has condemned Usurious Capitalism (Un-checked Capitalism that enslaves and is run amok), Socialism, and Communism. None of these three failed and ill-begotten systems treats a man fair, compensates him justly, nor guarantees his right to own property and a personal livelihood from which to support himself, his wife, and his progeny.

 

[S.ilvio]

Socialism has been condemned by the Holy Roman Catholic Church. No Roman Catholic may be a Socialist while remaining in good standing with the Holy Roman Catholic Church that Christ established; indeed, membership in such carries the penalty of excommunication.

Evidence..?

I ask because everyone in my local church knows my Sosialist beliefs and I've not been kicked out yet.

Why on Earth would I?

Socialism is about the working classes uniting to gain equlaity in the face of rabid Capitalism.

You should look into Liberation Theology as practiced in Latin America. the Latin american Church works hand in glove with the poorest of the poor who thmeselves are predominantly Socialist.

No mass excommunications there that I know of...

 

[MKJ]

Evidence..?

I ask because everyone in my local church knows my Sosialist beliefs and I've not been kicked out yet.

Why on Earth would I?

Socialism is about the working classes uniting to gain equlaity in the face of rabid Capitalism.

You should look into Liberation Theology as practiced in Latin America. the Latin american Church works hand in glove with the poorest of the poor who thmeselves are predominantly Socialist.

No mass excommunications there that I know of...

In all likelihood what you mean by socialism and the Cc means in her documents is not the same thing. They use the more technical understanding, which is that the state owns all means of production and there is no real private property.

Most modern day people who call themselves socialists in America are advocating mixed economies of some kind.

Liberation Theology has some laudable goals and programs, but there is more to it than what you have stated. It is some of these other aspects that have been rejected by the CC.

 

[Enkil]

You should look into Liberation Theology as practiced in Latin America. the Latin american Church works hand in glove with the poorest of the poor who thmeselves are predominantly Socialist.

No mass excommunications there that I know of...

Now you speak of the devil. The Pope has condemned the Marxist influences of Liberation Theology. That "theology", itself, has its origins in the KGB according to former soviet defectors such as Ion Mihai Pacepa. In other words, it is not a "theology" in any sense of the word. It is a heresy, an invention, created to enslave the people of South America. It is a poison inserted into Catholicism in order to hijack and destroy it. Your Chavez routinely preaches Christ while defrauding his own people. His "Christ" leads men to give him unlimited power, all in the name of saving the poor from poverty. Nietzsche once wrote that the greatest lie the State says is this, "I, the State, am the people". Christ cannot go hand in hand with Beelzebub. Even if you disbelieve me, I recommend that you pray to learn for sure if you know the difference between the two. Often times, Beelzebub makes himself look just like Christ, usually shining in ways that catch our eye better as well. The difference is in the fruit.

 

[S.ilvio]

Well if you call Chavez satan I wonder what you'd have called the regime before him who privatised the Oil industry, brought in the multi Nationals who pocketed the income and kept the right wing Govt in their pay to ensure the People were left out of the loop.

Since Hugo has xome to power the oil industry has been nationalised and is again owned by the people, for the people.

But I digress.

Chridt, when on Earth bypassed the middle classes and big bosses of his day and lived with the poor, identified with their suffering and acknowledged the special pace they had in God's heart.

The Latin American Church, to the eternal irritation of big business, the CIA and others lived out Jesus's focus on the poor, fighting against social injustice, being an advocate for equality in very inequal regimes (even military dictatorships bankrolled by the CIA in some instances).

The church was the only voice for these people and many priests suffered imprisonment, torture and death for being the ovice of those who have nothing. We sholudn't forget the great work also done in Africa and Asia also.

Please don't let Cold War politics blind your view. There was and is good in both systems that were 'at war' while the poor were often pawns in the middle.

But the poor have always been with us and sadly always will. Injustice (the real satan) will always be there to be fought and Socialist Roman Catholics will always be there fighting the good fight...

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

In Latin America this is history, Che Guevara a jewish (his mother was jewish) ,marxist atheist coupled with another jewish marxist atheist Fidel Castro "liberated" cuba from imperialism and corruption in such a great manner that the Cubans were better off before than they are now in 2011.

Communist heaven on earth - paradise for proletarians is the greatest scam and myth ever devised in socio-economic and political spheres.

Economically it is a complete disaster. Socially it is rhetoric and sentimentalism used to hook up gullible poor people who think of it as a savior when what it really does is to concentrate the property in the hands of the state-the few elite in a much more barbaric and despotic way than capitalism. At least in capitalism one can own private property.

Not just that it prospers in extremely poor, uneducated and rural societies. People who fall for the hoax either believe in the myth that politicians and those in power are good and care for the poor and the people on a whole or they want everyone else who isn't as poor as them to be as poor as them. Because communism is leveling conditions down and not leveling them up.

It is for greater equality. The non elites must be all poor in the same way.

When we look at our fridges, pcs, hd tvs, dvd players, iphones, ipods etc lets remember that its thanks to capitalism that we got them!! If we were under a communist regime we wouldn't have them. No one would have invented them.

The church should stop having an atavic fear of money based on franciscan "theology" - the devil's dirt. And other such nonsense. Without it the church would not exist either. The church has always been where the money was and the power was until the French Revolution objectively.

It should bless capitalism and demonize communism once and for all. Capitalism is the only opposition to communism. There aint another on the planet. Its either one or the other. Where there is communism the church disappears. Look at USSR and China. Or Cuba.Or North Korea. Or speak to any marxist left wing atheist...

 

[Virgil the Roman]

S.ilvio, please refer to the following:

Quotation from: Rerum Novarum

"Hence, it is clear that the main tenet of socialism, community of goods, must be utterly rejected, since it only injures those whom it would seem meant to benefit, is directly contrary to the natural rights of mankind, and would introduce confusion and disorder into the commonwealth. The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property."
[source: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13rerum.htm ]
​

ON the Social Order:

Quotation from: Quadragesimo Anno

"115. Such just demands and desire have nothing in them now which is inconsistent with Christian truth, and much less are they special to Socialism. Those who work solely toward such ends have, therefore, no reason to become socialists.

116. Yet let no one think that all the socialist groups or factions that are not communist have, without exception, recovered their senses to this extent either in fact or in name. For the most part they do not reject the class struggle or the abolition of ownership, but only in some degree modify them. Now if these false principles are modified and to some extent erased from the program, the question arises, or rather is raised without warrant by some, whether the principles of Christian truth cannot perhaps be also modified to some degree and be tempered so as to meet Socialism half-way and, as it were, by a middle course, come to agreement with it. There are some allured by the foolish hope that socialists in this way will be drawn to us. A vain hope! Those who want to be apostles among socialists ought to profess Christian truth whole and entire, openly and sincerely, and not connive at error in any way. If they truly wish to be heralds of the Gospel, let them above all strive to show to socialists that socialist claims, so far as they are just, are far more strongly supported by the principles of Christian faith and much more effectively promoted through the power of Christian charity.

117. But what if Socialism has really been so tempered and modified as to the class struggle and private ownership that there is in it no longer anything to be censured on these points? Has it thereby renounced its contradictory nature to the Christian religion? This is the question that holds many minds in suspense. And numerous are the Catholics who, although they clearly understand that Christian principles can never be abandoned or diminished seem to turn their eyes to the Holy See and earnestly beseech Us to decide whether this form of Socialism has so far recovered from false doctrines that it can be accepted without the sacrifice of any Christian principle and in a certain sense be baptized. That We, in keeping with Our fatherly solicitude, may answer their petitions, We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.

118. For, according to Christian teaching, man, endowed with a social nature, is placed on this earth so that by leading a life in society and under an authority ordained of God[54] he may fully cultivate and develop all his faculties unto the praise and glory of his Creator; and that by faithfully fulfilling the duties of his craft or other calling he may obtain for himself temporal and at the same time eternal happiness. Socialism, on the other hand, wholly ignoring and indifferent to this sublime end of both man and society, affirms that human association has been instituted for the sake of material advantage alone."
[source: Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno (15/05/1931) ]
​

Refer additionally to this Papal Encyclical as well: QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Liberation Theology has been condemned by the Papacy; it is just crypto-Marxism wrapped within the thin veneer of the guise of being supposedly "Catholic Social Justice" teachings; whenever, it is far from ever being truly such.


You would probably do well to read upon these errors condemned by Holy Mother Church as well: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

 

[S.ilvio]

So in essence not one Liberation theologist has been excommunicated and millions of Socialists around the world are happily members of the Catholic Church, and indeed enhance it with their works for the poor and those who suffer injustice due to the ravages of unchecked Capitlaism.

The Vatican can write what it likes about ideal worlds etc. The reality is there are huge injustices in this world where the poor are the most velnerable. Those people will continue to be at the heart of catholics and Socialists alike...

The Vatican has alot of its own dirty laundry to sort out before it deigns to criticise people who are proudly left wing and espouse Christ's dedication to injustice...

 

[Virgil the Roman]

So basically, like a Protestant or a Post-Modernist, you'll just ignore the Papacy and have it your own way. And to heck what the Holy Ghost says and speaks through Christ's Holy Roman Catholic Church!


Franco, Dollfuss, and Salazar all established or worked to establish Catholic Confessional States --- "Coporatist States" based upon Catholic Social Teachings; entailing a co-operation between Labour and Businesses in harmony; not being pitted against one another as Socialists and Communists would have us do; or enslaved by godless Big Businesses as uncheck "Usurious Capitalism" would. A solidly Catholic "middle-ground;" both fair and viable.