Why is Christ's bodily death a satisfactory substitute for the death of the soul in hell?

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Think about the simple questions I asked in post 13.

Simple and beautiful. From whom were we ransomed? From ourselves, for Satan is not the master of God, so the ransom was not paid to Satan. We are not the masters of God, but God gave us the free choice of disobedience. Thus, we "kidnapped ourselves from God" (a beautiful concept) and and set ourselves up as our own new masters, the cruelest and most horrible of masters. So, this cruel master won't let us go back to our true Father and our true family. We must be enslaved to him unless a ransom is paid. The ransom has been paid. The Old Man has no more hold over us, because the Old Man is drowned in the ransom paid to free us to return to the only worthy Master.

 

[bling]

Simple and beautiful. From whom were we ransomed? From ourselves, for Satan is not the master of God, so the ransom was not paid to Satan. We are not the masters of God, but God gave us the free choice of disobedience. Thus, we "kidnapped ourselves from God" (a beautiful concept) and and set ourselves up as our own new masters, the cruelest and most horrible of masters. So, this cruel master won't let us go back to our true Father and our true family. We must be enslaved to him unless a ransom is paid. The ransom has been paid. The Old Man has no more hold over us, because the Old Man is drowned in the ransom paid to free us to return to the only worthy Master.

You are getting most of it, but even though Christ is the ransom payment, the kidnapper does not have to accept the payment and if he does not accept the payment than payment did not take place for him, the transaction was not completed.

 

[Deadworm]

The most crucial question has not yet been addressed here: How can anyone's death, even the death of a sinless divine Messiah, have anything to do with my sin? It is no answer to say that Jesus replaces the OT system of vicarious sacrifice, because that system raises the question of why God would require the death of lambs and goats to forgive sins. The best answer is historical and theological.

(1) Historical Argument:
In the lead-up to the Christian era, a new idea infiltrates Jewish theology of sacrifice--the idea that humans can atone for the sins of others. This idea first infiltrates Jewish thought in their reflection on the meaning of the deaths of the Maccabean freedom fighters, whose deaths are not invested with atoning significance. Then the Essenes of the Qumran community come to view the Temple sacrifice system as corrupt and supplement that system with the notions that they themselves are a spiritual temple and that their life of hardships in the desert has atoning efficacy. Remember, the Suffering Servant song in Isaiah 53 is not applied to a particular figure and certainly not to the Messiah, until Jesus and early church interpret it that way. But their interpretation is fueled by the new idea of an atoning significance of the suffering and death of the righteous. Remember, too that Jesus prophesies the destruction of the Temple and, by implication, the abolition of the Jewish sacrifice system and that destruction eliminates a major obstacle to understanding Jesus' death as the atoning sacrifice to end all sacrifices and hence as the fulfillment of the Jewish sacrifice system.

(2) Theological Argument:
The lesser known answer to the OP's question is this: By the death of God's Son, God is taking responsibility--but not blame-- for our disobedience: "God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32)." Here Paul implies that the Fall was part of God's plan, so that humans would need to rely on God's mercy and grace for their salvation rather than on personal merit. Paul implies that God has locked or imprisoned us all in a human nature that makes our disobedience inevitable. Why? Because that Fall makes us "like [God], knowing the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3:24)" and our godlike stature is not only an expression of our creation in God's image, but the source of our capacity for spiritual discernment that was not possible in the pre-Fall phase of innocence.

 

[Deadworm]

The most crucial question has not yet been addressed here: How can anyone's death, even the death of a sinless divine Messiah, have anything to do with my sin? It is no answer to say that Jesus replaces the OT system of vicarious sacrifice, because that system raises the question of why God would require the death of lambs and goats to forgive sins. The best answer is historical and theological.

(1) Historical Argument:
In the lead-up to the Christian era, a new idea infiltrates Jewish theology of sacrifice--the idea that humans can atone for the sins of others. This idea first infiltrates Jewish thought in their reflection on the meaning of the deaths of the Maccabean freedom fighters, whose deaths are not invested with atoning significance. Then the Essenes of the Qumran community come to view the Temple sacrifice system as corrupt and supplement that system with the notions that they themselves are a spiritual temple and that their life of hardships in the desert has atoning efficacy. Remember, the Suffering Servant song in Isaiah 53 is not applied to a particular figure and certainly not to the Messiah, until Jesus and early church interpret it that way. But their interpretation is fueled by the new idea of an atoning significance of the suffering and death of the righteous. Remember, too that Jesus prophesies the destruction of the Temple and, by implication, the abolition of the Jewish sacrifice system and that destruction eliminates a major obstacle to understanding Jesus' death as the atoning sacrifice to end all sacrifices and hence as the fulfillment of the Jewish sacrifice system.

(2) Theological Argument:
The lesser known answer to the OP's question is this: By the death of God's Son, God is taking responsibility--but not blame-- for our disobedience: "God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32)." Here Paul implies that the Fall was part of God's plan, so that humans would need to rely on God's mercy and grace for their salvation rather than on personal merit. Paul implies that God has locked or imprisoned us all in a human nature that makes our disobedience inevitable. Why? Because that Fall makes us "like [God], knowing the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3:24)" and our godlike stature is not only an expression of our creation in God's image, but the source of our capacity for spiritual discernment that was not possible in the pre-Fall phase of innocence.

 

[Deadworm]

The most crucial question has not yet been addressed here: How can anyone's death, even the death of a sinless divine Messiah, have anything to do with my sin? It is no answer to say that Jesus replaces the OT system of vicarious sacrifice, because that system raises the question of why God would require the death of lambs and goats to forgive sins. The best answer is historical and theological.

(1) Historical Argument:
In the lead-up to the Christian era, a new idea infiltrates Jewish theology of sacrifice--the idea that humans can atone for the sins of others. This idea first infiltrates Jewish thought in their reflection on the meaning of the deaths of the Maccabean freedom fighters, whose deaths are not invested with atoning significance. Then the Essenes of the Qumran community come to view the Temple sacrifice system as corrupt and supplement that system with the notions that they themselves are a spiritual temple and that their life of hardships in the desert has atoning efficacy. Remember, the Suffering Servant song in Isaiah 53 is not applied to a particular figure and certainly not to the Messiah, until Jesus and early church interpret it that way. But their interpretation is fueled by the new idea of an atoning significance of the suffering and death of the righteous. Remember, too that Jesus prophesies the destruction of the Temple and, by implication, the abolition of the Jewish sacrifice system and that destruction eliminates a major obstacle to understanding Jesus' death as the atoning sacrifice to end all sacrifices and hence as the fulfillment of the Jewish sacrifice system.

(2) Theological Argument:
The lesser known answer to the OP's question is this: By the death of God's Son, God is taking responsibility--but not blame-- for our disobedience: "God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32)." Here Paul implies that the Fall was part of God's plan, so that humans would need to rely on God's mercy and grace for their salvation rather than on personal merit. Paul implies that God has locked or imprisoned us all in a human nature that makes our disobedience inevitable. Why? Because that Fall makes us "like [God], knowing the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3:24)" and our godlike stature is not only an expression of our creation in God's image, but the source of our capacity for spiritual discernment that was not possible in the pre-Fall phase of innocence. ​

 

[thesunisout]

Does scripture give any indication as to why Christ's physical execution on the cross was seen as a satisfactory substitution for an eternity in hell for all humanity? Even from the sinless and perfect Christ, physical death doesn't seem, to me at least, match up with the severity of eternal damnation.

It wasn't just a physical death that Jesus suffered. The scripture says that Jesus was made sin:

2 Corinthians 5:21

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God

So there were spiritual things going on. There is an indication that Jesus bore the wrath of God against sin. If you want to have an idea of what Christ went through, read Isaiah 53. Psalm 22 is also descriptive of what Jesus went through on the cross.

 

[Blade]

Does scripture give any indication as to why Christ's physical execution on the cross was seen as a satisfactory substitution for an eternity in hell for all humanity? Even from the sinless and perfect Christ, physical death doesn't seem, to me at least, match up with the severity of eternal damnation.

Hi.. as I see it.. the wages of sin.. IN THIS LIFE is death. Has a price. Adam and Eve sinned.. God said.. if you eat of this tree you will die. By one "sin" all was lost...by ones death, obedience put us back(reconciliation) where we should have always been. So Christs death "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:". That sin does not = hell. Sin ..the wages is death in this world. So the Father will look for your name. Do you know Christ.

I like this "There is no satisfactory explanation of the Atonement apart from the fact that Christ came into this world in order that He should die in the sinner’s place. He said,"

See this war is not between man and God but Satan and his angels. Dept for sin had to be paid. This was planned before the world was. What comes to mind "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"

 

[letmeseeyourphone]

God is eternal and infinite, existing outside of time. Once man sinned, his sin was before God eternally. Think of it like, he sees all of human history and creation as a giant mural on his wall. Beginning to end. Since he's outside of time, it's always there. Only an eternal sacrifice could cover it. And only one person could offer a sacrifice of that magnitude. God himself. Once Jesus died on the cross, THAT perfect sacrifice covered all of it. Eternally. Even though we're constrained by the fact that it was 2,000 years ago. God is not.

That is why it's a suitable substitute.

If someone already covered this, sorry. I read some responses then decided to give my answer. I have to go eat dinner.

 

[Thomas1987]

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[R. Hartono]

Even from the sinless and perfect Christ, physical death doesn't seem, to me at least, match up with the severity of eternal damnation.

"Physical death" is a must for our salvation, which means we must crucify to death our arrogancy and dignity. Only those who repent from their sins and bear the cross of Jesus will be given a chance for forgiveness from eternal damnation.

 

[bling]

The most crucial question has not yet been addressed here: How can anyone's death, even the death of a sinless divine Messiah, have anything to do with my sin? It is no answer to say that Jesus replaces the OT system of vicarious sacrifice, because that system raises the question of why God would require the death of lambs and goats to forgive sins. The best answer is historical and theological.

(1) Historical Argument:
In the lead-up to the Christian era, a new idea infiltrates Jewish theology of sacrifice--the idea that humans can atone for the sins of others. This idea first infiltrates Jewish thought in their reflection on the meaning of the deaths of the Maccabean freedom fighters, whose deaths are not invested with atoning significance. Then the Essenes of the Qumran community come to view the Temple sacrifice system as corrupt and supplement that system with the notions that they themselves are a spiritual temple and that their life of hardships in the desert has atoning efficacy. Remember, the Suffering Servant song in Isaiah 53 is not applied to a particular figure and certainly not to the Messiah, until Jesus and early church interpret it that way. But their interpretation is fueled by the new idea of an atoning significance of the suffering and death of the righteous. Remember, too that Jesus prophesies the destruction of the Temple and, by implication, the abolition of the Jewish sacrifice system and that destruction eliminates a major obstacle to understanding Jesus' death as the atoning sacrifice to end all sacrifices and hence as the fulfillment of the Jewish sacrifice system.

(2) Theological Argument:
The lesser known answer to the OP's question is this: By the death of God's Son, God is taking responsibility--but not blame-- for our disobedience: "God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11:32)." Here Paul implies that the Fall was part of God's plan, so that humans would need to rely on God's mercy and grace for their salvation rather than on personal merit. Paul implies that God has locked or imprisoned us all in a human nature that makes our disobedience inevitable. Why? Because that Fall makes us "like [God], knowing the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3:24)" and our godlike stature is not only an expression of our creation in God's image, but the source of our capacity for spiritual discernment that was not possible in the pre-Fall phase of innocence. ​

This very theoretical and not much scripture to back it up look at my post 13.

 

[sdowney717]

All in Christ are made alive, since Christ is the resurrection and the life, death could not hold Him. He is therefore now alive forevermore, and so are you if you are in Christ. What you sow won't live unless it dies. His death means we live because Christ came back from the dead, and we are in Christ and so then we also live as He lives.
It was necessary because of sin that someone has to die. That is God's law. So Christ became sin for us and therefore he had to die. God said without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

We also died with Christ, and so we were then raised with Christ

Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Colossians 2:20
Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:36
Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

Ephesians 2:1
[ By Grace Through Faith ] And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

1 Peter 3:18
[ Christ’s Suffering and Ours ] For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Acts 2:23-25 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.

 

[Light of the East]

Maybe it's not. Maybe what Christ did had nothing to do with a "payment" for sin, but rather had to do with taking human nature to Himself and healing it.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Does scripture give any indication as to why Christ's physical execution on the cross was seen as a satisfactory substitution for an eternity in hell for all humanity? Even from the sinless and perfect Christ, physical death doesn't seem, to me at least, match up with the severity of eternal damnation.

Because God’s government is an actual government and heaven operates under the same principles found on this earth. Sinful human beings are actual criminals engaged in criminal activity. If a real government just forgives criminals it actually brings about even more criminal activity. Plus it brings temptation into the law abiding community, (in heaven) to think the government is in league with the criminal element. It’s just common sense That demands of the public’s sense of justice have to be satisfied.

If you have ever been involved working with the criminals on earth. When they get away with what they are doing. If a judge let’s them off the hook because of a technicality or because they think it will better serve the governments interest to let them off. The criminals aren’t thankful. They don’t repent thinking wow, I just dodged a bullit. I’m through with this. Their hearts aren’t broken in gratitude towards the community who spared them. Nope they despise the judge, the law, the law abiding community and are embolden to do even worse. Plus the public’s sense of justice is violated and they believe the government is corrupt.
So the wisdom and good will of the governor of heaven provides an atonement without which no sin, read crime, can be forgiven.

In other words an atonement is a condition of forgiveness..,...but not the only condition. If criminal activity cannot safely be forgiven by a just and good government without an atonement. How much more so without repentance from the criminal? In fact when the innocent is offerd in the place of the guilty yet the guilty simply continues in their evil ways. How much Greater is the gravity of their crimes?

Nope true repentance and getting on the path of reform is also a condition of forgiveness and reconciliation to the government of God. Not saying if someone commits a sin here they are done. The path of reform differs from one person to another and God can handle people stumbling along the way. Just saying people have to get on it as a condition of salvation just like an atonement.

 

[Volante Nocturno]

Does scripture give any indication as to why Christ's physical execution on the cross was seen as a satisfactory substitution for an eternity in hell for all humanity? Even from the sinless and perfect Christ, physical death doesn't seem, to me at least, match up with the severity of eternal damnation.

Jesus became sin for us so we could be made the righteousness of God in Him. His body died, He went to hell, and on the third day He rose.....It was not just a physical thing at all.

 

[Light of the East]

Interesting that no one has brought God's Covenant with Creation into this discussion. Yet seeing as how His covenant relationship with Adam brought this all about, surely there is an answer in there somewhere that needs to be found.

 

[Volante Nocturno]

Interesting that no one has brought God's Covenant with Creation into this discussion. Yet seeing as how His covenant relationship with Adam brought this all about, surely there is an answer in there somewhere that needs to be found.

God has no covenant with Creation...His covenants were all with men...The last, the New Covenant is between the Father and Jesus..with us as beneficiaries.

 

[Light of the East]

God has no covenant with Creation...His covenants were all with men...The last, the New Covenant is between the Father and Jesus..with us as beneficiaries.

You are correct. My wording was imprecise. The Covenant of God was with mankind (i.e. Creation) through Adam as the priest/covenant head over mankind. So you are right. It isn't with Creation directly, but through Adam.

The thing that seems to point in that direction is that Christ is called "The Last Adam" in 1 Corin. 15:45. This language ties Him, as Perfect Man, back to Adam and the covenant made with Adam. There's a link there somewhere, I just haven't found it.

 

[section9+1]

Sin is a work. The wage of that work is death. Life is in the blood. When blood is spilt, life is spilt unto death. Before Jesus' death, atonement was promised beforehand to those who came to him and repented and desired him. In a way, there really is no such thing as forgiveness for sin. A payment must always be made. Death always must occur. Someone has to die, always. A sinless substitute could do it. For the OT Jews, it was animals that were their substitute up until Christ. For us it is Christ who died in our place. No forgiveness, only payment in blood and death. It is our choice who will pay.

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

You are getting most of it, but even though Christ is the ransom payment, the kidnapper does not have to accept the payment and if he does not accept the payment than payment did not take place for him, the transaction was not completed.

Shall everyone be saved or shall some end up being told "Away from me, evildoer, I know you not"?