Why is Christ's bodily death a satisfactory substitute for the death of the soul in hell?

[BryanJohnMaloney]

Sin is a work. The wage of that work is death. Life is in the blood. When blood is spilt, life is spilt unto death. Before Jesus' death, atonement was promised beforehand to those who came to him and repented and desired him. In a way, there really is no such thing as forgiveness for sin. A payment must always be made. Death always must occur. Someone has to die, always. A sinless substitute could do it. For the OT Jews, it was animals that were their substitute up until Christ. For us it is Christ who died in our place. No forgiveness, only payment in blood and death. It is our choice who will pay.

Cute, but how does that actually come specifically and directly from the New Testament rather than "ransom", which IS mentioned in the New Testament?

 

[section9+1]

The substitutionary atonement is the gospel. The NT is not a clean break with the OT. OT requirements are still in place, but they have found their fulfillment in Christ. If you are not in Christ and have heard the gospel, you are under that law and that law will not save you. The law hasn't gone anywhere, but we have. We have escaped it, not eradicated it. Christ was Abraham's heir and if we are in Christ so are we. Our justification is now by faith like Abraham's. Faith in the one who paid the wage. The NT is a continuation of the OT being post messiah instead of pre messiah. It's the same message.

 

[Ancient of Days]

Does scripture give any indication as to why Christ's physical execution on the cross was seen as a satisfactory substitution for an eternity in hell for all humanity? Even from the sinless and perfect Christ, physical death doesn't seem, to me at least, match up with the severity of eternal damnation.

In a way your right. We all deserve to burn in hell a thousand times over for our sins...

 

[bling]

Shall everyone be saved or shall some end up being told "Away from me, evildoer, I know you not"?

Everyone is not saved because some refuse the ransom payment.

 

[bling]

The substitutionary atonement is the gospel. The NT is not a clean break with the OT. OT requirements are still in place, but they have found their fulfillment in Christ. If you are not in Christ and have heard the gospel, you are under that law and that law will not save you. The law hasn't gone anywhere, but we have. We have escaped it, not eradicated it. Christ was Abraham's heir and if we are in Christ so are we. Our justification is now by faith like Abraham's. Faith in the one who paid the wage. The NT is a continuation of the OT being post messiah instead of pre messiah. It's the same message.

If you would please answer my questions on post 13 we might have a discussion of atonement. It was not a "wage" being paid to someone deserving of the wage, but a literal ransom being offered to an undeserving kidnapper.

 

[Light of the East]

In a way your right. We all deserve to burn in hell a thousand times over for our sins...

Really?

So using the analogy of father and child, you are saying that for my child perhaps being insolent to me, or stealing a cookie before dinner, or not making his bed, I should hold his hand over a lit gas stove for the rest of his life?

Really?

What does a child deserve when that child has done something wrong?

 

[section9+1]

Bling. I do not recognize what you say as the gospel.

 

[section9+1]

Light OTE. There is no father and child analogy. What you are saying has no application.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Does scripture give any indication as to why Christ's physical execution on the cross was seen as a satisfactory substitution for an eternity in hell for all humanity? Even from the sinless and perfect Christ, physical death doesn't seem, to me at least, match up with the severity of eternal damnation.

Paul noted we all had the law written in our hearts. Jew or gentile... And he noted the Law, which curses people hung on a tree... effectively was doing away with the law by nailing it to the cross.

Jesus made a mockery of death in this crucifixtion.

 

[bling]

Bling. I do not recognize what you say as the gospel.

Did Peter preach the "gospel" on Pentecost in Acts 2, which I think he did and there was no mention of Christ being the substitute for those 3000? Peter seems to go on preaching the same thing without any mention of Christ taking their place on the cross?

 

[section9+1]

In Revelation 14 and angel comes and preaches the eternal gospel and no mention is made of Christ whatsoever. You cannot just assume that the gospel is fully contained and explained in arbitrary examples. I have presented it as I see it. If you see it differently, I don't particularly care. I am not interested in persuading you otherwise.

 

[Light of the East]

Light OTE. There is no father and child analogy. What you are saying has no application.

Of course there is an application. God uses analogies from live, with which we are familiar, to explain Himself and His relationship to us in terms we can understand. God has identified Himself as "Father" to mankind, therefore, it is totally proper for us to take the best example of a loving father here on earth and extrapolate from that how God treats His children.

Unfortunately, Western theology makes God out to be this kind of Father:

Not a father in any even remote sense of the word as we understand it.

Perhaps you should learn to understand how to read the Bible other than to look for everything to be word-for-word literalism.

 

[Light of the East]

Did Peter preach the "gospel" on Pentecost in Acts 2, which I think he did and there was no mention of Christ being the substitute for those 3000? Peter seems to go on preaching the same thing without any mention of Christ taking their place on the cross?

Indeed. If you read on in the Book of Acts, you will get sense of what the Gospel is from Paul's sermon on Mars Hill. When Paul was finished, what did the pagans say to him?

Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

It is precisely this part that is the Good News. Without the Resurrection, Christ is just another crucified man, we are still under the bondage of death, and the is no hope in the next life. We are still bound by death. To many people in Western theology speak of the Cross with neglect to mention the Resurrection. This is the big difference between Eastern and Western views of salvation - the West is caught up in the idea of punishment, payment for sin, and the agony of the Cross. The East looks beyond that (not ignoring it) to the effects of the Cross upon our lives. This is expressed in the term "theosis," or becoming gods. The Resurrection guarantees that this is truth.

 

[section9+1]

Light OTE. No analogy. Perhaps you should understand what the bible says instead of what your feelings tell you. None of God's children are in hell.

 

[Light of the East]

Light OTE. No analogy. Perhaps you should understand what the bible says instead of what your feelings tell you. None of God's children are in hell.

No analogy? What exactly do you mean by that? The Scriptures are filled with analogies.

As for your last statement, Western theology is filled with the idea that God sends some of His children to an eternal fire. Calvinism is especially nasty about this, stating that before the world was even formed, God would arbitrarily pick between His children as to which ones He would save and which ones He would eternally torture. Medieval Catholicism, from which Calvinism morphed, ain't much better (think Dante's Divine Comedy and the levels of hell).

Some of God's children are in hell now, some are not. Those in hell are being cleansed of their rebellion and sinfulness before they enter the Kingdom. They should have repented in this lifetime.

 

[section9+1]

I think we're done now.

 

[Ron Gurley]

STUDY: "substitutionary atonement"...Christ voluntarily bled to death FOR all men FOR all sins FOR all time. He died on your behalf to reconcile a sinful you to a holy and perfect God.

" Substitutionary Atonement "...What is it ??

" Substitutionary Atonement "...a preamble!

1. The TRI-UNE God created Mankind in THEIR own spritual image.

2. "Natural Man", beginning with A&E, has an innate "sin nature"...
to be disobedient, self / world centered, and with a tendancy to turn from God.

3. God has given Man (and angels) the spiritual gift of "Free Will" to spiritually accept or reject Him
and His gracious provisions for salvation when called / drawn by the Spirit.

4. God is perfectly Loving/Merciful/full of Grace. AND He is also perfectly JUST.
He loves all sinners. AND He hates all sin.

5. Sinful Man on his own cannot work his way to heaven and be acceptable to a perfect sinless God. A sin barrier exists.
Man needs a Savior to act on his behalf to reconcile himself to God

6. Jesus the God-Man had a DUAL NATURE:
True Man: the sinless New Adam.
True Deity: Divinity poured out into a miraculous Body without loss or change of Deity.

7. Jesus the Divine Messiah voluntarily bled to death on a cruel, unjust Cross.
Jesus the God-Man voluntarily substituted Himself FOR all sins FOR all Men FOR all time.
His miraculous birth, ministry, death, resurrection, appearances, and ascension
RECONCILED Man to God. (at-one-ment)

8. The New Covenant: The blood of Jesus covers the sin of man.
We believers are longer under condemnation.
We believers are FORGIVEN of our SINS.

PLEASE DISCUSS (with supporting copy + paste Scripture) Your VIEWS on any or all of the above.

AND NOW: " Substitutionary Atonement "

Substitution = e.g. "hyper" / ...Jesus died FOR you...in your place

2 Corinthians 5:21,
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin "on our behalf",
that we might become the righteousness of God IN Him." (Imputed Righteousness!)

Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once FOR all;
but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

1 Peter 3:18 -
"For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the righteous (Jesus) FOR the unrighteous (Man),
that he might bring us to God" (reconciliation)

1 Peter 2 (NASB)
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered FOR you,
leaving you an example FOR you to follow in His steps,
22 (Jesus who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;
23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return;
while suffering, He uttered no threats,
but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;
FOR by His wounds you were healed.
25 For you were continually straying like sheep,
but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

Atonement = basic meaning of RECONCILIATION....work of redemption on behalf of ...

"Atonement" = at-ONE-ment = spiritual reconciliation and other benefits of salvation...
...some spiritual act that "pays for" / redeems Man from his sin nature / sin / sin(s)
...the penalty due to Man's sins are avoided
...action decreed by God for the re-establishment of a positive relationship
between Man (the sinner) and Himself (the holy God).

The OT is replete with a myriad of ritual laws to cover the sins of Israel.
The word Atonement is used only ONCE in the KJV of the NT.

Romans 5:11 KJV
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom we have now received the atonement.

the atonement. ...Greek 2643....katallage....adjustment of a difference, RECONCILIATION, restoration to favour

Romans 5: 6-11 (NASB)
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly.
For one will hardly die for a righteous man;
though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved (sanctified) by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Leviticus 16:34
Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, (Mosaic Law)
to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.”
And just as the Lord had commanded Moses, so he did.

Hebrews 7:27
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,
first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once FOR all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but THROUGH His own blood,
He entered the holy place once FOR all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 10:10
By this will we have been sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once FOR all.

See also: PROPITIATION ...

New Testament Greek:
G2435 hilasterion (he-lä-sta'-re-on) =~ propitiation, "mercy seat"

...“The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God.
Propitiation is a two-part act that involves
appeasing the wrath of an offended person and
being reconciled to them.”
Propitiation is that:
“by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner.
The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; (God is ALSO perfectly LOVING and MERCIFUL!)
it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners...

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God,
but that He loved us and
sent His Son to be the propitiation FOR our sins.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things,
so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation FOR the sins of the people.

The BLOOD of Jesus:

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus
you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence
to enter the holy place (presence of God) by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the (His) sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead
the great Shepherd of the sheep
through the blood of the eternal covenant,
even Jesus our Lord,

1 Peter 1:2 ...a peek a the TRI-UNE GOD?
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
to obey (God the Son) Jesus Christ
and be sprinkled with His blood:
May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 John 1:7
but if we (believers) walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light,
we have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus His Son CLEANSES (washes away) us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ,
the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

 

[bling]

In Revelation 14 and angel comes and preaches the eternal gospel and no mention is made of Christ whatsoever. You cannot just assume that the gospel is fully contained and explained in arbitrary examples. I have presented it as I see it. If you see it differently, I don't particularly care. I am not interested in persuading you otherwise.

Rev. 14 is a very figurative poetic prophecy, which is given to those already saved, Christ is the Lamb.
Where are you finding the "gospel" in Rev. 14?

 

[bling]

Indeed. If you read on in the Book of Acts, you will get sense of what the Gospel is from Paul's sermon on Mars Hill. When Paul was finished, what did the pagans say to him?

Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

It is precisely this part that is the Good News. Without the Resurrection, Christ is just another crucified man, we are still under the bondage of death, and the is no hope in the next life. We are still bound by death. To many people in Western theology speak of the Cross with neglect to mention the Resurrection. This is the big difference between Eastern and Western views of salvation - the West is caught up in the idea of punishment, payment for sin, and the agony of the Cross. The East looks beyond that (not ignoring it) to the effects of the Cross upon our lives. This is expressed in the term "theosis," or becoming gods. The Resurrection guarantees that this is truth.

I am saying the resurrection is part of the Good News and Peter did preach the resurrection on Pentecost in Acts 2, but the cruel, torture, humiliation and murder of Christ has its own significance. If Christ just had to die to rise from the grave, God and Christ would never have gone through the experience of the cross. The Lords Supper is about the crucifixion and we partake of the Lord’s Supper to remember that crucifixion.

If Penal Substitution were correct it would be hugely and the most significant action with Christ’s crucifixion, but Peter gives the very best Christ Crucified sermon in Acts 2 and does not say anything about Christ being our substitute or Christ’s victory over death for us with the resurrection. Peter’s emphasis is on their crucifying the savior and Messiah.

 

[bling]

STUDY: "substitutionary atonement"...Christ voluntarily bled to death FOR all men FOR all sins FOR all time. He died on your behalf to reconcile a sinful you to a holy and perfect God.

" Substitutionary Atonement "...What is it ??

" Substitutionary Atonement "...a preamble!

1. The TRI-UNE God created Mankind in THEIR own spritual image.

2. "Natural Man", beginning with A&E, has an innate "sin nature"...
to be disobedient, self / world centered, and with a tendancy to turn from God.

3. God has given Man (and angels) the spiritual gift of "Free Will" to spiritually accept or reject Him
and His gracious provisions for salvation when called / drawn by the Spirit.

4. God is perfectly Loving/Merciful/full of Grace. AND He is also perfectly JUST.
He loves all sinners. AND He hates all sin.

5. Sinful Man on his own cannot work his way to heaven and be acceptable to a perfect sinless God. A sin barrier exists.
Man needs a Savior to act on his behalf to reconcile himself to God

6. Jesus the God-Man had a DUAL NATURE:
True Man: the sinless New Adam.
True Deity: Divinity poured out into a miraculous Body without loss or change of Deity.

7. Jesus the Divine Messiah voluntarily bled to death on a cruel, unjust Cross.
Jesus the God-Man voluntarily substituted Himself FOR all sins FOR all Men FOR all time.
His miraculous birth, ministry, death, resurrection, appearances, and ascension
RECONCILED Man to God. (at-one-ment)

8. The New Covenant: The blood of Jesus covers the sin of man.
We believers are longer under condemnation.
We believers are FORGIVEN of our SINS.

PLEASE DISCUSS (with supporting copy + paste Scripture) Your VIEWS on any or all of the above.

AND NOW: " Substitutionary Atonement "

Substitution = e.g. "hyper" / ...Jesus died FOR you...in your place

2 Corinthians 5:21,
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin "on our behalf",
that we might become the righteousness of God IN Him." (Imputed Righteousness!)

Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once FOR all;
but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

1 Peter 3:18 -
"For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the righteous (Jesus) FOR the unrighteous (Man),
that he might bring us to God" (reconciliation)

1 Peter 2 (NASB)
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered FOR you,
leaving you an example FOR you to follow in His steps,
22 (Jesus who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;
23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return;
while suffering, He uttered no threats,
but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;
FOR by His wounds you were healed.
25 For you were continually straying like sheep,
but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

Atonement = basic meaning of RECONCILIATION....work of redemption on behalf of ...

"Atonement" = at-ONE-ment = spiritual reconciliation and other benefits of salvation...
...some spiritual act that "pays for" / redeems Man from his sin nature / sin / sin(s)
...the penalty due to Man's sins are avoided
...action decreed by God for the re-establishment of a positive relationship
between Man (the sinner) and Himself (the holy God).

The OT is replete with a myriad of ritual laws to cover the sins of Israel.
The word Atonement is used only ONCE in the KJV of the NT.

Romans 5:11 KJV
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom we have now received the atonement.

the atonement. ...Greek 2643....katallage....adjustment of a difference, RECONCILIATION, restoration to favour

Romans 5: 6-11 (NASB)
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly.
For one will hardly die for a righteous man;
though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved (sanctified) by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Leviticus 16:34
Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, (Mosaic Law)
to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.”
And just as the Lord had commanded Moses, so he did.

Hebrews 7:27
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,
first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once FOR all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but THROUGH His own blood,
He entered the holy place once FOR all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 10:10
By this will we have been sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once FOR all.

See also: PROPITIATION ...

New Testament Greek:
G2435 hilasterion (he-lä-sta'-re-on) =~ propitiation, "mercy seat"

...“The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God.
Propitiation is a two-part act that involves
appeasing the wrath of an offended person and
being reconciled to them.”
Propitiation is that:
“by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner.
The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; (God is ALSO perfectly LOVING and MERCIFUL!)
it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners...

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God,
but that He loved us and
sent His Son to be the propitiation FOR our sins.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things,
so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation FOR the sins of the people.

The BLOOD of Jesus:

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus
you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence
to enter the holy place (presence of God) by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the (His) sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead
the great Shepherd of the sheep
through the blood of the eternal covenant,
even Jesus our Lord,

1 Peter 1:2 ...a peek a the TRI-UNE GOD?
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
to obey (God the Son) Jesus Christ
and be sprinkled with His blood:
May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 John 1:7
but if we (believers) walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light,
we have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus His Son CLEANSES (washes away) us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ,
the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

We have been through this before but would you answer my question on post 13.