Why is Christianity declining?

1Tonne · Jun 17, 2024

seeking.IAM said:
Lost me at 1:32: "...so an atheist who perhaps has no moral system could never go against the system he sets up..." The assertion that atheists may have no moral system is preposterous. One can have a moral code that is not rooted in religious faith, and the moral systems of non-Christians are just as important to them as our faith-based moral system is to us. I posit that most persons short of psychopaths have a moral system. It may be different than ours and not rooted in faith, but it is a code they live by, nonetheless.

I remember leaving my insular youth and heading off to college where I met a chap who was (and is) one of the most moral persons I had ever met. I assumed he must be a fine, upstanding Christian and asked him what church he attended. He had never been to church in his life and knew nothing about Christianity.

Moral (n): a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.

The sentence before says "The only person who could possibly be a hypocrite is somebody who sets up a moral value system"
So, I don't think that they are talking about unbelievers there. I think they are saying that the people in the church have a morality system which they try to abide by. But because we are not perfect, we break it. Thus, we can look like hypocrites.
The people outside the Church still understand morality because God has written the Law on their hearts, but they do not hold onto that morality as a fixed thing. Over time their morality can change, and they do not look like hypocrites. Whereas a believer's morality should be fixed as we have the bible.
Sadly, we have many professing Christians out there that are not true believers who will say bible verses on national TV and then they will then act in a way that is not Christian. Thus, making true Christians look like hypocrites.

But that was not my point. Watch the whole thing and you will see the part I meant.

1Tonne · Jun 17, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
I skipped a lot but the guys being evangelized didn't seem impressed.

I thought the opposite considering they were going to think about it. Watch 12:16-12:24. But we also need to remember that people love their sin and Satan has blinded the eyes of those who do not believe. So, it is only God who can change the person.
We have been told to go and preach the Gospel to as many people as possible. That is our mission. So, you could preach the Gospel to 1000 people and if they all rejected it, then don’t worry. You were 100% successful in your mission. You are simply told to go and preach the gospel and then it is God who creates the growth.
1 Cor 3:7 “Neither the one who plants, nor the one who waters is anything, but it is God who creates the growth.”

Mark 4:26-29 “26 And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; 27 and he goes to bed at night and gets up daily, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know. 28 The soil produces crops by itself; first the stalk, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. 29 Now when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”
We do not know how God creates the growth. We are just told to preach the Gospel and then it is up to God.
QUOTE: To evangelise, does not mean to win converts. But simply to announce the Good News irrespective of the results. John Stott

Watch the whole thing

rebornfree · Jun 18, 2024

1Tonne said:
Yes. The church did have bible studies and I did go to one. What I was trying to get at was that my life was pretty stock standard like most Christians in church. But when you go out and share the Gospel, you will find that life becomes more fulfilling. Life is no longer stock standard.

I also found that in life we do need to be careful not to fill it up so much that we do not have time to go and share. This can be difficult though and so pray that God can show you how to make time.

Yes. Sometimes there are people behind the scenes too. But their overall desire is that the Gospel is told to as many people as possible. So, they may not be the ones telling the Gospel at the event, but their overall goal is as a team, that the Gospel is told.
I run a bbq and the person who cooks does not get time to share the Gospel, but he desires that I get the chance to share it. Which I do.

Sadly, I have been to a large Christian outreach event that is put on each year and the Gospel is never told. The people running the event use these outreaches to make friends. Then, if the opportunity ever arises, they can share the Gospel. But often, the opportunity never arises.
This is once again placing friendship evangelism above proclamation. What would have been better, is that the Gospel was told at the event, and then afterwards we make friends. Then at least everyone would have had the chance to hear it. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. We need to trust in the power of the Gospel more than the power of our friendships. But do make friends too.

I agree that it can be interesting to talk to people. My approach is to pray with them for their needs. Sometimes I say that none of us are perfect but God is and then explain salvation. This is usually with the community where I live but occasionally when I'm out and about especially with the homeless.

I feel that we need to introduce people to Jesus and the best way is to get them into Church, possibly running a special course for them. And yes we can be involved in reaching the lost even when we're doing the behind the scenes tasks. So please don't assume that people don't care because they are not the ones speaking.

The comments I made about being busy was when I was younger. I was involved in Church things for several hours a week but household tasks had to be done and my husband insisted that I worked full-time.

Now I'm 73 and need to get on with the writing the Lord has told me to do.
So I'm going to bow out of this thread because time is short at my age. As I've said before I think you've got a good heart although I might agree to differ on some issues. However I thought that your actions with the lady with the burning car tyre (on that thread) were exemplary. God bless!

timewerx · Jun 18, 2024

doughtz said:
I think it is because there are apparent issues within the Bible that are not properly addressed.

Today, with modern science, it is becoming hard to reconcile things such as the age of the Earth, a global flood, and evolution with the Bible.

As somebody who has been a Christian for 15 years and served as a full-time minister for a few of those... those are the sources of doubts that I have among others.

The issues are far more numerous than the things you mentioned.

There's even a matter that if Biblical teachings are to be interpreted plainly or literally, then many teachings in the Bible would end up contradicting each other.

Although we Christians stoically deny these contradictions exist and blame wrong interpretations, divisions (denominations) in Christianity exist around these contradictions. Facts do not support claims and the only way a denomination can prove contradictions in the Bible does not exist is that their doctrine is superior over all the others or their theirs is the only one telling the truth while the others are deceived somehow.

The problem is that all the other denominations believe in the same thing about themselves that they are right and everybody else is deceived.

Immature reasoning I would say.

Would seeking the truth rather be giving others the benefit of doubt they maybe right and yourself in the wrong instead of assuming you can never be wrong and everyone who disagrees with you is always wrong or deceived.

Because learning stops once we believe we can never be wrong in the things we believe. That was the mistake of the Pharisees. Another mistake they did is having more faith in people than the Lord. If you have more faith in people than the Lord, then you are prone to being deceived by people who maybe deceived themselves. You'll assume your church elders or pastor is impossible to be deceived so you'll accept everything they say is the truth. Never questioning they maybe deceived themselves that you may actually start seeking the Lord for guidance.

Someone deceived cannot do what is right. If you keep making mistakes, people will eventually leave. I think this is the real reason of Christianity's decline. Christians don't have anything "solid" and are just being tossed back and forth by the winds of an ever-changing society for better or for worse.

1Tonne · Jun 18, 2024

rebornfree said:
So please don't assume that people don't care because they are not the ones speaking.

Agreed. That is why I mentioned the cook at the BBQ.
The thing I am pointing out is that we need to get outside the 4 walls of the church to say the Gospel. Many churches rely solely on the members making friends and then bringing them to the church so that they can hear the Gospel. I believe that we can do this, but it is simply a part of everyday life, and it limits the amount the Gospel is spoken. If this is the main form of evangelism, then we forget that Jesus said "Go into all the world"
So, we may be going out and sharing the Gospel individually or we may be going out and working as a team with one speaker. But the Gospel will be told outside the 4 walls of the church.
Sadly, there are plenty who just come to church for fellowship and then when they go home, they do nothing. They simply wait for God to bring someone to fall into their lap. And so, they only get to say the Gospel on the rare occasion if ever. This is very common.
There needs to be more equipping of the saints to be able to go out and share the Gospel. If people are equipped, then they will not be so afraid.
God Bless

armchairscholar · Jun 21, 2024

1Tonne said:
Agreed. That is why I mentioned the cook at the BBQ.
The thing I am pointing out is that we need to get outside the 4 walls of the church to say the Gospel. Many churches rely solely on the members making friends and then bringing them to the church so that they can hear the Gospel. I believe that we can do this, but it is simply a part of everyday life, and it limits the amount the Gospel is spoken. If this is the main form of evangelism, then we forget that Jesus said "Go into all the world"

So, we may be going out and sharing the Gospel individually or we may be going out and working as a team with one speaker. But the Gospel will be told outside the 4 walls of the church.

Sadly, there are plenty who just come to church for fellowship and then when they go home, they do nothing. They simply wait for God to bring someone to fall into their lap. And so, they only get to say the Gospel on the rare occasion if ever. This is very common.
There needs to be more equipping of the saints to be able to go out and share the Gospel. If people are equipped, then they will not be so afraid.
God Bless

This is something that the pentecostal evangelicals do really well. I don't agree with many of their specific doctrinal views but their simplified message and aggressive evangelism make them amazing at recruiting new believers.

They're the primary reason why Christianity actually isn't in decline in most of the world, though it feels that way in the western countries: Christianity grew from something like 8% in Africa in the 1920s to almost 50% today. Most of the growth is from Pentecostals. If it weren't for those crazy pentecostals, Islam would be taking over.

In the west, it may feel like christianity is declining, but it's actually been holding steady for decades at a slight minority in western societies, around 40ish percent, as Christianity has become more identified with the political conservatives in society.

Also, just a side note: I wonder if the number of christians is really going down in the west, or if people who previously would have been afraid to admit they aren't super into Christianity, now feel more free to be who they are?

FireDragon76 · Jun 26, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
1Tonne, please notice here, I'm not the one who is saying that you shouldn't be street preaching ......... you can street preach if you want.

You can talk to people out in the public all day, every day if you truly believe you're being called to do that. However, all I'm saying is that the particular fundamentalist angle that has been used from the time of Charles Finney to today's Ray Comfort may not be fully engaging people on the human level in a way that is actually reminiscent of the way Jesus, or even Peter or Paul, engaged people. But you think you're doing the same thing.

I'm just not sure you are, especially if we now live in the 21st Century with over a dozen major competing versions of "the Christian Faith." While I don't discount all that Fundamentalist think, I'm not one to assume they have it all correct, either, especially not where street preaching is concerned.

So, keep preaching if you feel led to. I wouldn't want to stop you from doing that. I would, however, hope and pray you take into account more than just the Bible alone when you preach to other vulnerable, maybe confused, human beings.

The people of Charles Finney's day already believed, more or less. Revivalism and "accepting Jesus into your heart" alrerady presupposes alot of Christian assumptions and attitudes about the world.

FireDragon76 · Jun 26, 2024

armchairscholar said:
In the west, it may feel like christianity is declining, but it's actually been holding steady for decades at a slight minority in western societies, around 40ish percent, as Christianity has become more identified with the political conservatives in society.

Also, just a side note: I wonder if the number of christians is really going down in the west, or if people who previously would have been afraid to admit they aren't super into Christianity, now feel more free to be who they are?

I don't think the issue is hypocrisy per se, but a lack off intellectual humility, in people like Ray Comfort. Many people would just look at somebody like Ray Comfort and see somebody that's a sincere but naive salesman who doesn't necessarily know what he's talking about.

1Tonne · Jun 26, 2024

FireDragon76 said:
I don't think the issue is hypocrisy per se, but a lack off intellectual humility, in people like Ray Comfort. Many people would just look at somebody like Ray Comfort and see somebody that's a sincere but naive salesman who doesn't necessarily know what he's talking about.

I am pretty sure Ray would love the criticism. It would make him really happy. He would pray for those who scoff, and also, he would look at their scoffing as a blessing.

FireDragon76 · Jun 26, 2024

1Tonne said:
I am pretty sure Ray would love the criticism. It would make him really happy. He would pray for those who scoff, and also, he would look at their scoffing as a blessing.

That can also be due to pride, which isn't a good thing.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 26, 2024

FireDragon76 said:
I don't think the issue is hypocrisy per se, but a lack off intellectual humility, in people like Ray Comfort. Many people would just look at somebody like Ray Comfort and see somebody that's a sincere but naive salesman who doesn't necessarily know what he's talking about.

I think that in the case of Ray Comfort, we have an example of someone who has all too firmly become assured of the interpretations of Dispensational Premillennialism. And thus, he acts in response to what he thinks he 'sees' going on in the world around him.

FireDragon76 · Jun 26, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
I think that in the case of Ray Comfort, we have an example of someone who has all too firmly become assured of the interpretations of Dispensational Premillennialism. And thus, he acts in response to what he thinks he 'sees' going on in the world around him.

It's not a coincidence that alot of the ideas that coalesced around DP came out of British Fundamentalism and reactionary anti-modernism.

Rescued One · Jun 26, 2024

Nick Moser said:
Why is Christianity declining both in membership and in clergy? Even the more conservative branches of Christianity such as Orthodoxy and the more conservative branches of Catholicism and Protestantism is declining although not as rapidly as the more liberal and heretical branches. Although Islam (prelest that combines Moon paganism with heretical forms of Christianity), which like Mormonism and Judaism is a cheap imitations of Christianity, is not declining.

I heard that Mormonism is declining, but it is freaky control cult using fear tactics. Other churches are losing younger members who are on social media. Mormons aren't Christians. They deny the Trinity and teach that he father was a man who earned godhood and physically impregnated Mary with the Mormon jesus (bet you didn't know that). Mary was a daughter of the father by one of his goddess wives. Mormon just are NOT Christians!

Rescued One · Jun 26, 2024

RileyG said:
People prefer their sin to freedom.

They are delusional thinking sin is freedom, but Christ makes us FREE!

FireDragon76 · Jun 26, 2024

rturner76 said:
I think that since the 1960's more and more people do not want to be told how to live and the spirit of rebellion and non-conformity has taken root in most secular societies. Back in the day there wasn't just pressure on people to go to church but to dress a certain way, act a certain way, and do their best to fit in. The 60's destroyed all of that and it became more fashionable and convenient and easier to do whatever you want and not respect any authority other than your own conscience. Every generation since gets more and more "free" and wants less and less to do with conforming to anyone's standards but their own.

Vietnam and Watergate probably had something to do with that. It was shocking to a generation that had been raised to believe in a postwar technocratic management of progress. Also, religious leaders at the time, even some in relatively liberal mainline Protestant churches, as well as many Catholic clergy, either backed Vietnam, or supported the realpolitik that made it possible.

Rescued One · Jun 26, 2024

1Tonne said:
Sorry. I don't understand the statement.

Are you saying that when we share the Gospel, we should not show a person their sin? If we show them their sin, then they should feel guilty. If they don't then they have most likely dulled their conscience.

Sharing the gospel doesn't convert people. God does.

1 corinrhians 3
5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

seeking.IAM · Jun 26, 2024

FireDragon76 said:
Also, religious leaders at the time, even some in relatively liberal mainline Protestant churches, as well as many Catholic clergy, either backed Vietnam, or supported the realpolitik that made it possible.

My observation was that many did even worse. They stood silent.

Rescued One · Jun 26, 2024

rturner76 said:
I think that since the 1960's more and more people do not want to be told how to live and the spirit of rebellion and non-conformity has taken root in most secular societies. Back in the day there wasn't just pressure on people to go to church but to dress a certain way, act a certain way, and do their best to fit in. The 60's destroyed all of that and it became more fashionable and convenient and easier to do whatever you want and not respect any authority other than your own conscience. Every generation since gets more and more "free" and wants less and less to do with conforming to anyone's standards but their own.

Both of my parents were born before the mid-1920s. They weren't raised to attend church. They hated Christianity. My maternal grandfather's grandfather died in prison. The Bible says "Train up a child in the way he should go..." Generation after generation, it wasn't done. A non-relative taught me to pray when I was four. My mother had six children by 3 men. Five of her children didn't pray.

FireDragon76 · Jun 26, 2024

seeking.IAM said:
My observation was that many did even worse. They stood silent.

Yes, there was a real lack of prophetic witness. It kept the complacent happy, no doubt, but it turned off alot of people . Many young people stayed away from mainstream religion, as a result, they went to Neo-Pentecostal churches or they got into New Age spirituality.

1Tonne · Jun 26, 2024

Rescued One said:
Sharing the gospel doesn't convert people. God does.

1 corinrhians 3
5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

Agreed. We are just called to spread the seed/gospel and do not get discouraged if you do not see any changes. We have been told to go and preach the Gospel to as many people as possible. That is our mission. So, you could preach the Gospel to 1000 people and if they all rejected it, then don’t worry. You were 100% successful in your mission. You are simply told to go and preach the gospel and then it is God who creates the growth.
Mark 4:26-29 “26 And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; 27 and he goes to bed at night and gets up daily, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know. 28 The soil produces crops by itself; first the stalk, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. 29 Now when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.”

We do not know how God creates the growth. We are just told to preach the Gospel and then it is up to God.
QUOTE: To evangelise, does not mean to win converts. But simply to announce the Good News irrespective of the results. John Stott

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