Why is Christ not dead / in Hell

[ladodgers6]

I don't think that is what Jesus meant.

Please provide the passage, so that we are on the same page.

Thanks in advance.

God bless!

 

[marineimaging]

Wow, I was raised a Baptist ( Southern ), and never heard that. It is theologically wrong. The moment Christ said on the cross ¨ it is finished ´, all the sin of all who accept forgiveness was forgiven. He didn´t need to take it anywhere, a sin forgiven by God exists no more

And therein lies the reason we have problems with proselytizing. As I said you will get 60 answers because everybody has their version of this sin or that of the redemptive power of Christ, or the Old vs New Testament, or whatever serves to keep us separated. It is in scripture and it is taught by some but not all. Just because it wasn't in your congregation(s) doesn't make it wrong. Still, I would prefer to stay focused on the answer to the OP and that is that Jesus is not in Hell because he, himself, was without sin. I don't think we have any argument with that very important point.

 

[Clint Edwards]

You have a systematic logic that makes your point interesting. I noticed that no one was directly addressing your line of logic, and I started following it just to see how long it would take you to quit the thread in exasperation.

I can only argue by analogy. Hell is a hole with no bottom (an abyss), because the punishment is endless. We are finite beings with a finite sum of dirt with which to fill that hole. It would take us forever. An infinite God could fill it in a moment, with his infinite supply. God could pay the same price in a moment that would take us forever to pay. If Christ were anything less than God, anything less than perfect, less than infinite, then he would have to burn in Hell forever, and our sins would not be paid until that eternity was completed.

It would take a poor man a very long time to pay an enormous debt, but a rich man could pay it in a day, because he has more to offer. Christ was that rich man. In other words, the punishment of Christ in a single day was worth more than the punishment of a sinner over the course of eternity.

The punishment is not undone, and he did take it.

Logical syllogism. The penalty for sin is death, Christ atoned for the penalty for all who accept him, therefore, death is swallowed up in victory. The promise of God given to our first parents was that they would surely die. DEATH is the wages of sin, temporary, or permanent was not specified. The act of dying, once or twice was what Christ overcame, not the duration of death, though it could be either.

 

[Clint Edwards]

And therein lies the reason we have problems with proselytizing. As I said you will get 60 answers because everybody has their version of this sin or that of the redemptive power of Christ, or the Old vs New Testament, or whatever serves to keep us separated. It is in scripture and it is taught by some but not all. Just because it wasn't in your congregation(s) doesn't make it wrong. Still, I would prefer to stay focused on the answer to the OP and that is that Jesus is not in Hell because he, himself, was without sin. I don't think we have any argument with that very important point.

Well, as a Bible teacher, I have never come across this in the Bible, no matter, we do agree on that very important point.

 

[marineimaging]

I read all of these comments and how jumbled they seem in the context of this forum and then I think of how easy God made salvation to be. So that the uneducated shepherd, the child living in a dump, the old man living in a cave can each and all accept and receive Jesus and be ushered to eternal salvation. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And no man can keep him away from his reward for believing in Jesus, for it is our Lord and Savior who made the promise and he who made the sacrifice. No matter how complicated man makes it, God made it simple out of his eternal love for us all.

 

[EmSw]

Purgatory doesn't cost money. It's free of charge.

Doesn't it cost something to get out?

 

[Pilgrim Passing Thru]

Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.



The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?

I am not a teacher, but can repeat a couple points I have heard, on this topic.
1) Anything that happened to the Lord-- who created the universe, and came down here from His position in glory, where He was worshipped by thousands of angels in a place of absolute purity--cannot be equated to the the same thing happening to a mere human being.
2) Thank God...in any case, the Father called Christ's sacrifice sufficient.

 

[2tim_215]

Is human sacrifice an abomination to God? If you say yes, then God chose that which is an abomination to Him to save you.

Where does it actually say that it's an abomination (although I'm sure it is). It just wasn't a requirement for the Old Testament Jew. Instead, animals were used. Never did they sacrifice humans and were not asked by God to do so. However, via the animal sacrifices, the Jewish priests had to perform these rituals on a regular basis, you need to read Hebrews:
Hebrews 9:8-14 (KJV)
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 10:1-6 (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Jesus was the and for all perfect sacrifice which God chose to accept for man's remission of sin. No need for us to sacrifice animals, hallelujah.

 

[EmSw]

Where does it actually say that it's an abomination (although I'm sure it is). It just wasn't a requirement for the Old Testament Jew. Instead, animals were used. Never did they sacrifice humans and were not asked by God to do so. However, via the animal sacrifices, the Jewish priests had to perform these rituals on a regular basis, you need to read Hebrews:
Hebrews 9:8-14 (KJV)
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 10:1-6 (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Jesus was the and for all perfect sacrifice which God chose to accept for man's remission of sin. No need for us to sacrifice animals, hallelujah.

As you stated, you are sure human sacrifices are an abomination to God, and then proceed to proclaim God chose this method for man's remission of sin. Kinda sick, if you want to know the truth.

Let's see what Jesus said about sacrifices, shall we?

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mark 12:33
And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Jesus never said He came to be a sacrifice for sins. Many haven't learned what 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice' means. It was calling sinners to repentance, for which Jesus came, not to hang on a cross as a sacrifice.

And then to top it off, Jesus said to love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself IS MORE THAN ALL burnt offerings and sacrifices. Jesus wasn't interested in any sacrifices, but rather, in loving God and our neighbor, and having mercy.

Who would you rather believe, Jesus, the Savior Himself, or some unknown writer?

Then we have this from the OT.

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psalm 51:16
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Psalm 107:22
And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.

Psalm 116:17
I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the Lord.

Proverbs 21:3
To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.

God did not desire sacrifices, except the sacrifices of a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart, and the sacrifices of thanksgiving. Notice what is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice, that's right, to do justice and judgment.

Yet many are so caught up in a bloody sacrifice, they will turn a deaf ear to what is said above. Many will not learn what Jesus said.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Doesn't it cost something to get out?

No.

 

[EmSw]

No.

What do you think of this from the Catholic Encyclopedia?

Purgatory. An indulgence offers the penitent sinner the means of discharging this debt during his life on earth.

What is an indulgence to you?

 

[Clint Edwards]

Doesn't it cost something to get out?

Tetzel, indulgence seller for the pope that Luther railed against, ¨ as soon as a coin in my money box rings, another soul from purgatory springs ¨.

 

[Landon Caeli]

What do you think of this from the Catholic Encyclopedia?

Purgatory. An indulgence offers the penitent sinner the means of discharging this debt during his life on earth.

What is an indulgence to you?

It means the guilt we feel while alive now. People used to falsely claim that indulgences shortened our time in purgatory, most likely, because they either wanted to portray the Catholic Church as evil, or they were ignorant...

But we can still receive indulgences during jubilee years, despite the outcry from some radical anti-Catholics. I would like to receive one some day, perhaps on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land.

 

[Landon Caeli]

As most Catholics know, confessing our sins does not make us feel any better about them. Often, we remain feeling guilty long afterwards, especially for the most pious of people. So what the Church did, to help people suffering from guilt, was to offer indulgences.

 

[EmSw]

It means the guilt we feel while alive now. People used to falsely claim that indulgences shortened our time in purgatory, most likely, because they either wanted to portray the Catholic Church as evil, or they were ignorant...

But we can still receive indulgences during jubilee years, despite the outcry from some radical anti-Catholics. I would like to receive one some day, perhaps on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land.

Why not do what Jesus said?

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Repent for the forgiveness of sins, and you will feel no guilt.

 

[EmSw]

As most Catholics know, confessing our sins does not make us feel any better about them. Often, we remain feeling guilty long afterwards, especially for the most pious of people. So what the Church did, to help people suffering from guilt, was to offer indulgences.

Who told you to feel guilty? Most people I know don't feel guilty about sins that are forgiven. Do yourself a favor and find out what 'remission' means.

If forgiveness doesn't relieve your guilt, how in the world will indulgences help?

And what exactly do you do to 'get' indulgences?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Remission of sin, meaning we are completely forgiven by God...

...But what about someone we've hurt? For instance, when I was in grade school, I picked on a kid, and said hurtful things to him. Sure, I realize God has forgiven me, but I still feel sorry for that person I hurt. I can never apologize to him because I have relocated.

Other people may have cheated on a spouse, or ruined a relationship to where lives are altered forever... Some things can never be taken back, and misfortune results from our errors.

...The guilt we live with may effect us for life.

 

[EmSw]

Remission of sin, meaning we are completely forgiven by God...

...But what about someone we've hurt? For instance, when I was in grade school, I picked on a kid, and said hurtful things to him. Sure, I realize God has forgiven me, but I still feel sorry for that person I hurt. I can never apologize to him because I have relocated.

Other people may have cheated on a spouse, or ruined a relationship to where lives are altered forever... Some things can never be taken back, and misfortune results from our errors.

...The guilt we live with may effect us for life.

I understand what you are saying. However, how do indulgences make you feel better?

And how do you procure indulgences?

 

[2tim_215]

Remission of sin, meaning we are completely forgiven by God...

...But what about someone we've hurt? For instance, when I was in grade school, I picked on a kid, and said hurtful things to him. Sure, I realize God has forgiven me, but I still feel sorry for that person I hurt. I can never apologize to him because I have relocated.

Other people may have cheated on a spouse, or ruined a relationship to where lives are altered forever... Some things can never be taken back, and misfortune results from our errors.

...The guilt we live with may effect us for life.

You are right, but you can be forgiven by God, and it would be much better if you could apologize to the one you hurt but there may have been consequences you've had to suffer for later in life. When David sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and sending her husband to be killed in the front lines (considered murder) God forgave him, but he would suffer greatly for the rest of his life as a result starting with his first child being stillborn. You could still pray for the one you have injured, even though you are unable to apologize in person. God knows you have repented. I'm sure that whatever you did to this person pales in comparison to what David did. Hope this helps.

 

[Hillsage]

Yup.

Nope. Nothing in what I said denies God. It points out the nature of punishment for sin. So kindly spare me such allegations.

Wow Inkfingers, I just now found this thread you started. I wish I'd have been here in the beginning. But I'm not going to wade through 15 pages to get up to where it has gone.

But I will say I admire how you kept trying to get people to give a scriptural defense for your question....nada unfortunately. Mainly just a whole lot of Eternal Tormenter shuck and jive philosophical-ism as far as I did read. Granted, that was only the first page. I do admire how you kept trying to get them to just biblically answer your original question though.