Why is Christ not dead / in Hell

[Melissa Suzanne]

Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.



The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?

Hi Inkfingers! So this is what I believe to be true from the Bible. So an important thing to remember is death is for those who have sinned, not those who die in the place of sin. Since Jesus was completely obedient throughout his mission, he is not worthy of hell. Only we are. Jesus is the only sacrifice that could save us because he was the only pure sacrifice. When Jesus made that sacrifice it satisfied God's wrath and saved us. An imperfect man can't die to save all because his sin makes him saved and unqualified. But Jesus was the perfect lamb. That's the only explanation I've got. He didn't physically have to sin to bear our sin. I believe God looked away because it was his son and didn't want to see him suffer on th

We're like pennies, and Jesus was like a million dollar bill.

It said the wrath of got was satisfied on the cross. So that means, no death in hell, because the justice of God for mankind was fulfilled when he died on the cross for us. The reason we would go to hell without Jesus is that would satisfy God's wrath, but we don't have to because that sacrifice was enough to satisfy God's wrath.

 

[JoeP222w]

Okay, this is one that vexes me.

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the full price of sin, why then is Jesus not either:

1) eternally dead

2) waiting to go into the lake of fire for all eternity

If the price of sin is either eternal death, or eternal suffering in the lake of fire (as I said, depending on which interpretation you go with), and Jesus paid the FULL price of sin, he should then be in one of those two conditions.



The only reason I can think that he would not be in one of those conditions is if:

a) he did not pay the full price of sin but was let off part of the bill (cue track playing opening chords of O Fortuna)

b) The Father chooses to end the sentence of sin prematurely (which opens the gates to a potential universalism as regards salvation - ie: all end up being saved in the end)

It CANNOT be that Jesus gets a reduced sentence on account of being sinless, as that would mean he does not pay the FULL price of sin.

Thoughts?

Or it proves that Jesus is indeed God, because only God, who is perfect, could fully satisfy the righteous requirements for justice of God. The cross is where Justice and Mercy meet.

 

[Inkfingers]

Hi Inkfingers! So this is what I believe to be true from the Bible. So an important thing to remember is death is for those who have sinned, not those who die in the place of sin. Since Jesus was completely obedient throughout his mission, he is not worthy of hell. Only we are. Jesus is the only sacrifice that could save us because he was the only pure sacrifice. When Jesus made that sacrifice it satisfied God's wrath and saved us. An imperfect man can't die to save all because his sin makes him saved and unqualified. But Jesus was the perfect lamb. That's the only explanation I've got. He didn't physically have to sin to bear our sin. I believe God looked away because it was his son and didn't want to see him suffer on th

It said the wrath of got was satisfied on the cross. So that means, no death in hell, because the justice of God for mankind was fulfilled when he died on the cross for us. The reason we would go to hell without Jesus is that would satisfy God's wrath, but we don't have to because that sacrifice was enough to satisfy God's wrath.

I think that people are just over-complicating the matter though.

Sin has a price - the price that is paid by mankind, which is (depending on which interpretation you hold to) either eternal death or eternal torture. This is what awaits humanity for sin. This is its price.

We are told that Jesus paid the price of sin, TAKING OUR PUNISHMENT.

So that means eternally dead or eternally tortured (as that is OUR PUNISHMENT).

But Jesus is neither dead not tortured.

Meaning that either he did not take the punishment OR the punishment is going to be undone and everyone saved in the end (Universalism).

 

[Colter]

Not quite true.
Matt. 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
The word "for" in the Greek most likely means "payment for" since ransom is a payment. The question is who the kidnapper was who was paid the ransom? (look at my pervious post).

Man never was the property of the fallen ones, rather the victim of betrayal. If the Jews had accepted the original gospel, they would be preaching it today from Jerusalem and Jesus would have simply returned to his place on high.

Have faith, forgive others, and be forgiven was already in the original gospel. Jesus never gave a sermon about paying debts to God with human sacrifice. He said "I require mercy not sacrifice".

The atonement doctrine is theoretical salvation. The gospel of Jesus was real, personal repentance and the restoration of right relations with God if in fact one needed restoration.

 

[Colter]

I think that people are just over-complicating the matter though.

Sin has a price - the price that is paid by mankind, which is (depending on which interpretation you hold to) is either eternal death or eternal torture. This is what await humanity for sin. This is it's price.

We are told that Jesus paid the price of sin, TAKING OUR PUNISHMENT.

So that means eternally dead or eternally tortured (as that is OUR PUNISHMENT).

But Jesus is neither dead not tortured.

Meaning that either he did not take the punishment OR the punishment is going to be undone and everyone saved in the end (Universalism).

Jesus taught or perhaps revealed more accurately, that God is our Father, he loves us as a Father, he Forgives as a Father. One cannot buy Love. All this talk of buying Love is so primitive, childish and selfish. As if the Father is some sort of cold hearted accountant and his children born into a debt run up by someone else!? That's not the gospel that Jesus had hoped that the Jews would receive!

 

[EmSw]

As a Catholic, I have no idea how a soul can remain "in the grave"... Does the coffin hold it in somehow?

...No, we believe in a place where souls go to purify after death, and prior to Christ's judgement. We call it "purgatory".

Were Lazarus and the rich man in purgatory?

 

[EmSw]

He chose Himself so that no other human would/could ever take the place of all mankind to remit their sins.

Interesting that you think God chooses what is an abomination to Him to bring about His desires. Lying lips and the way of the wicked are abominations to God. Why not choose lying lips to tell us the truth? Why not tell all to be wicked to please God?

 

[EmSw]

Read the Bible passage?

Sure I have, but don't you believe they weren't resurrected?

 

[EmSw]

You can find it in Leviticus, read it. (16 I think) The scape goat wasn't even killed. At the same time though a sin offering was also made.

And yes, we know that the animals were not crucified.

So how was Jesus a sacrifice when it was nothing like what was prescribed by God? All sacrifices were upon an altar, none on a cross.

 

[EmSw]

Because Christ fulfilled the broken Covenant of Works (God's Law), with perfect obedience. He was the final sacrifice that was offered to take away the sins of the world. Christ restored us in him by His active/passive obedience and merited a Kingdom and a People. So when Christ fulfilled the Law, that cursed us. And died obedient unto death, and fulfilling His Father's will to save those whom he gave him to save. He bore our sins on the Cross, as a perfect sacrifice without a single blemish of sin, to propitiate God's righteous wrath. But Christ did pay the full penalty of our sins in our place, by taking the full wrath of God upon his head. But there was nothing to hold him in hell, for he was a righteous man, raised for our Justification! He defeated sin, death and Satan at the Cross by the shedding of his blood for His people!

How did the law curse you? Wasn't it you who cursed yourself?

How long were you under the law? Did you perform the rituals of the law? How many animals did you sacrifice on the altar under the law? Where did you study the law?

So many said the law did this or that to them, when in actuality, I doubt if few, if any, were under the law on this forum.

Very few know that the OT sacrifices ordained by God were never on a cross. Death on a cross was a pagan ritual if you will, not one God told anyone to perform. God never said to offer a human sacrifice for anything; it was an abomination to Him.

 

[Colter]

The elaboration of the atonement doctrine is rooted in selfishness.

 

[Sam91]

Sure I have, but don't you believe they weren't resurrected?

Well then, why would you need to ask? (Rhetorical) I am beginning to think that these posts are more to try to frustrate individuals than to explore a subject. Like a battle of wits.

I would rather not suspect that, and would rather try to focus on what is good... (Not saying that you are bad btw. Just that this it isn't fruitful for me) so am bowing out of our communication.

 

[ladodgers6]

How did the law curse you? Wasn't it you who cursed yourself?

How long were you under the law? Did you perform the rituals of the law? How many animals did you sacrifice on the altar under the law? Where did you study the law?

So many said the law did this or that to them, when in actuality, I doubt if few, if any, were under the law on this forum.

Very few know that the OT sacrifices ordained by God were never on a cross. Death on a cross was a pagan ritual if you will, not one God told anyone to perform. God never said to offer a human sacrifice for anything; it was an abomination to Him.

Thank you for these excellent questions. The Law brings knowledge of sin, and sin brings condemnation & death. No flesh will be justified through the Law, because of sin! In the fall, Adam and his progeny became convicted Law breakers! Already sanctioned to condemnation & death. This is the curse of Law for it brings death; its also called the ministry of death for sinners! There is no hope, no joy, no life, no peace in the Law for sinners! It accuses us and condemns us ONLY! I am cursed because I have sinned & was imputed with Adam's Sin. So yes I cursed in the first Adam.​

I was under the curse of Law, until I heard & believe in the Proclamation of Gospel of Christ who justifies the ungodly, like me. By taking away my sins on the Cross through His Blood shed; it washing me of my sins! And not only that, by His active/passive obedience he came and fulfilled the broken Covenant of Works that the first Adam breached, and imputes to me His perfect Righteousness that is received through Faith Alone!

No, I did not perform the rituals of the Law (which rituals are you referring too?). I did not kill any animals on the altar (there is no need to kill animals on the altar, because the Lamb of God was slain to take away the sins of the world). I have studied some Law. I studied Law from various resources.

Everyone is under the curse of the Law, until they are freed from it through Christ, who became a curse for them, and was hung on a pole.

I just LOVE Galatians. Here is Paul speaking about the curse of the Law:

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith​

10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Hope this helps???

God Bless!

 

[ladodgers6]

Well then, why would you need to ask? (Rhetorical) I am beginning to think that these posts are more to try to frustrate individuals than to explore a subject. Like a battle of wits.

I would rather not suspect that, and would rather try to focus on what is good... (Not saying that you are bad btw. Just that this it isn't fruitful for me) so am bowing out of our communication.

I understand your thoughts here. I hope you continue and share your knowledge.

God Bless!

 

[Sam91]

I understand your thoughts here. I hope you continue and share your knowledge.

God Bless!

Thanks, I will pray before responding in future.

 

[ladodgers6]

How was Lazarus comforted if he wasn't resurrected? How was the rich man in agony while in the grave?

Lazarus is comforted in the Promise to Abraham of the 'Promised Seed'.

 

[ladodgers6]

Thanks, I will pray before responding in future.

Yes, take your time.

God Bless!

 

[sdowney717]

Acts 2 answers the question. It was impossible for death to hold Christ, because God has promised to raise up the Christ to rule on David's throne, this means the resurrection.
And if there was no resurrection then your faith would be in vain.
Christ says He is the resurrection and the life.
The penalty paid by Christ was not going to hell, it was paid by Christ's death on the Cross. Christ did not suffer in hell. He went there to make proclamation to the spirits in prison, He that ascended also descended that He might fill all things. It is a false teaching to say Christ was tortured in hell.

Acts 2
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the [k]remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

 

[bling]

Man never was the property of the fallen ones, rather the victim of betrayal. If the Jews had accepted the original gospel, they would be preaching it today from Jerusalem and Jesus would have simply returned to his place on high.

Have faith, forgive others, and be forgiven was already in the original gospel. Jesus never gave a sermon about paying debts to God with human sacrifice. He said "I require mercy not sacrifice".

.

I agree with you that Jesus’ verbal message was already expressed by the Old Testament Prophets.

I also fully agree with your idea “Jesus never gave a sermon about Him paying the debt to God” and I would add in Peter’s first Christ Crucified Sermon on Pentecost (Acts 2) Peter says nothing about Christ paying our debt or being our substitute.

God is the epitome of unselfishness (Love) doing everything or allowing everything for the benefit of those who are just willing to accept His help (God does not force His help on you), this is so we can fulfill our earthly objective. The “everything” includes Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, hell, death, and even our sinning.

There are huge problems with the old salvation system prior to the cross, but that does not mean people were not saved or the system was not beautiful and wonderful. Man just could not do his part correctly under the Old Law.

One of the huge issues with the system prior to the cross was with the disciplining of forgiven sinners who repented. All excellent parents forgive and (if at all possible) see to the fair/just disciplining of their repentant children, which has lots of benefits like drawing the children even closer to the parents when accepted correctly. Paul in Ro. 3:25 points this out: “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—”

In context Paul is talking about repented of and forgiven sins of those prior to the cross with: “…because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished” the Greek word for “unpunished” most of the time is “undisciplined”. God forgave these sins but there was no way to fairly/Justly discipline the sinner without killing them. Paul contrast this with after the cross there is a way to fairly/justly discipline the repentant sinner by having them crucified with Christ. You can empathetically experience the cruel torture and murder of Christ similar to those on Pentecost (Acts 2:37) a death blow to the heart.

The indwelling Holy Spirit can now be given to those who have experienced this disciplining.

A lot more can be said.

 

[2tim_215]

Interesting that you think God chooses what is an abomination to Him to bring about His desires. Lying lips and the way of the wicked are abominations to God. Why not choose lying lips to tell us the truth? Why not tell all to be wicked to please God?

What? Whatever you mean it's not what I think. That's apparently your own interpretation/translation of what I said.