Why insist on God's omnipotence?

[spiritplumber]

Why do most Christians -- well, most theists -- insist on the notion that God is omnipotent/all-powerful?

This generates a lot of problems, I think.

First off, there's the "Can God make a rock so heavy even He can't lift it" thing.

Second, Occam's razor -- let's suppose that I've decided through various means that I believe God created the universe. I'm positing a pretty large actor as it is there; why posit an infinitely large one?

Third, it causes untold drama, pussyfooting around word definitions, and confusion when saying God "cannot" be evil, or destroy a soul, or tell a lie, and so on.

Fourth, it makes the entire worship/praise gig look pretty weak. If you can do absolutely everything, is anything ever an effort? If nothing is ever an effort, what are we worshiping/praising here exactly? I'll spend a lot more time lauding a craftsman building a bronze statue with what resources he has in his shop than an industrialist hiring a team of engineers to do the same in series, and I'd think most if not all art critics would agree with me as to which result is more likely to count as art and which isn't.

Plus, well -- just giving the good guy unlimited superpowers makes for a lousy story, no? Even Superman has kryptonite, otherwise it'd make for some really boring comics.

So... why not just have a God that is just powerful enough to make a universe, and leave it at that? I wonder if that's what Hebrews had in mind in bible times anyway -- it's definitely more in tune with other ancient religions, and they do mention other deities without mentioning God just insta-zapping them to the recycle bin.

It gets rid of an untold amount of issues, reduces the need to split hairs and twist logic, reads better, and ultimately may even improve God's reputation.

 

[arunma]

Why do most Christians -- well, most theists -- insist on the notion that God is omnipotent/all-powerful?

Hello Spiritplumber. I'll address the points you've raised.

First off, there's the "Can God make a rock so heavy even He can't lift it" thing.

This is a very classic atheist argument with a simple answer. No, God cannot make a rock so heavy that even he can't lift it. Omnipotence doesn't include the ability to fail.

Second, Occam's razor -- let's suppose that I've decided through various means that I believe God created the universe. I'm positing a pretty large actor as it is there; why posit an infinitely large one?

Occam's razor states that the simplest explanation is the preferred one. I think you've neglected that the Bible gives specific revelation on the existence of God which negates this rule.

Third, it causes untold drama, pussyfooting around word definitions, and confusion when saying God "cannot" be evil, or destroy a soul, or tell a lie, and so on.

The problem here is that you're ignoring the fact that the Bible states that God is not evil, does not destroy souls, and does not lie. Maybe if Christians were manufacturing our own religion we'd do as you suggest. But our belief is based on truth. What we want to be true is irrelevant.

Fourth, it makes the entire worship/praise gig look pretty weak. If you can do absolutely everything, is anything ever an effort? If nothing is ever an effort, what are we worshiping/praising here exactly? I'll spend a lot more time lauding a craftsman building a bronze statue with what resources he has in his shop than an industrialist hiring a team of engineers to do the same in series, and I'd think most if not all art critics would agree with me as to which result is more likely to count as art and which isn't.

That's a rather subjective argument. Besides that, we worship God on the basis of his nature and character, not the effort that he expends in performing a task.

So... why not just have a God that is just powerful enough to make a universe, and leave it at that? I wonder if that's what Hebrews had in mind in bible times anyway -- it's definitely more in tune with other ancient religions, and they do mention other deities without mentioning God just insta-zapping them to the recycle bin.

Again, your argument is predicated upon the assumption that we've invented our belief in God arbitrarily. We are bound by what Scripture has revealed about the nature of God.

It gets rid of an untold amount of issues, reduces the need to split hairs and twist logic, reads better, and ultimately may even improve God's reputation.

By lying or inventing information about him?

 

[MethodMan]

Why insist on God's omnipotence?

Simple answer? He does!

 

[Quaero]

First off, there's the "Can God make a rock so heavy even He can't lift it" thing.

Can God create a spherical triangle?

A linear paradox is always a flawed form of argument. God cannot create a rock so large that the cannot move it. God cannot fail. However this means that God cannot do everything!?!? According to the bible he cannot sin, and cannot turn lie into truth. So there are many things that God cannot do if we apply obscure paradox's to a situation. Can he create a triangel with 400 degrees within it?

Second, Occam's razor -- let's suppose that I've decided through various means that I believe God created the universe. I'm positing a pretty large actor as it is there; why posit an infinitely large one?

Occam's razor relies on the pretence that requires the least justification is the most probable. Everything appeared ex nilo vs. God created everything.

Both sides have used this principle to justify the Science vs. God creation debate. For it to work both sides have to agree upon what the simplest outcome would be, and that has yet to be resolved.

Third, it causes untold drama, pussyfooting around word definitions, and confusion when saying God "cannot" be evil, or destroy a soul, or tell a lie, and so on.

Indeed it does, there are many books on the subject, even a branch of philosophy dedicated to it -Theodicy.

Fourth, it makes the entire worship/praise gig look pretty weak. If you can do absolutely everything, is anything ever an effort? If nothing is ever an effort, what are we worshiping/praising here exactly? I'll spend a lot more time lauding a craftsman building a bronze statue with what resources he has in his shop than an industrialist hiring a team of engineers to do the same in series, and I'd think most if not all art critics would agree with me as to which result is more likely to count as art and which isn't.

I see the point you are trying to make, this defines the difference between deists and theists. It comes down to whether you believe in a personal God who cares, or not.

So... why not just have a God that is just powerful enough to make a universe, and leave it at that? I wonder if that's what Hebrews had in mind in bible times anyway -- it's definitely more in tune with other ancient religions, and they do mention other deities without mentioning God just insta-zapping them to the recycle bin.

Deist vs. Theist again.

It gets rid of an untold amount of issues, reduces the need to split hairs and twist logic, reads better

Perhaps it would. Removing factors from a scenario to make it easier to comprehend just serves to rob the original message. Remove the key theme of love from the bible and you are left with a disjointed God with a sadism issue.

and ultimately may even improve God's reputation.

Yes but so would releasing an album in conjunction with Nickleback.... but its not going to happen

 

[ephraimanesti]

It gets rid of an untold amount of issues, reduces the need to split hairs and twist logic, reads better, and ultimately may even improve God's reputation.

God's reputation needs "improving"? i don't think so!

If you mean it would be easier to “sell” Him to agnostics and atheists and others wandering in darkness, perhaps it would be important to keep in mind that without the TRUTH, the WHOLE Truth, and NOTHING BUT the Truth, the ersatz "god" these lost benighted souls would receive after your suggested tampering would be an empty package, and, in their state of unbelief which is in itself an empty package, they would be no better off than before, so what would be the point?

God is exactly Who and What He has revealed Himself to be. Accept it or reject it! To accept Him as anything less than what He has revealed Himself to be would be to dishonor Him--and ourselves.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,

ephraim

 

[Emmy]

Dear arunma. We know that God is All-powerfull, why should anyone doubt this? Is there anything more powerful? or omniscient? or omnipresent? We need not insist on it, arunma, we KNOW. God is the great I AM, who always WAS, who always IS, and who always WILL BE. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[talitha]

God is exactly Who and What He has revealed Himself to be. Accept it or reject it! To accept Him as anything less than what He has revealed Himself to be would be to dishonor Him--and ourselves.

Well-said!

What you seem to not understand is that Christians do not invent God. We know Him. We can't make Him what He is not, anymore than we can make you what you are not.

blessings
tal

 

[ebia]

Why do most Christians -- well, most theists -- insist on the notion that God is omnipotent/all-powerful?

This generates a lot of problems, I think.

First off, there's the "Can God make a rock so heavy even He can't lift it" thing.

Second, Occam's razor -- let's suppose that I've decided through various means that I believe God created the universe. I'm positing a pretty large actor as it is there; why posit an infinitely large one?

Third, it causes untold drama, pussyfooting around word definitions, and confusion when saying God "cannot" be evil, or destroy a soul, or tell a lie, and so on.

Fourth, it makes the entire worship/praise gig look pretty weak. If you can do absolutely everything, is anything ever an effort? If nothing is ever an effort, what are we worshiping/praising here exactly? I'll spend a lot more time lauding a craftsman building a bronze statue with what resources he has in his shop than an industrialist hiring a team of engineers to do the same in series, and I'd think most if not all art critics would agree with me as to which result is more likely to count as art and which isn't.

Plus, well -- just giving the good guy unlimited superpowers makes for a lousy story, no? Even Superman has kryptonite, otherwise it'd make for some really boring comics.

So... why not just have a God that is just powerful enough to make a universe, and leave it at that? I wonder if that's what Hebrews had in mind in bible times anyway -- it's definitely more in tune with other ancient religions, and they do mention other deities without mentioning God just insta-zapping them to the recycle bin.

It gets rid of an untold amount of issues, reduces the need to split hairs and twist logic, reads better, and ultimately may even improve God's reputation.

I tend to agree that Christians should avoid the concept of omnipotence, which is an inherently flawed Greek, not biblical, concept. It's unfixably flawed like all other naieve ideas about the infinite.

How does the bible talk about the power of God? Mostly in poetry, and in the story and reality of a young Jewish peasant telling the religious and secular authorities what they were getting wrong, allowing them to kill him for it, and coming through that death and out the other side,...

God not only can do, but has done, what needs to be done - in the resurrection of Jesus. Trying to define the limits of God's power is as impossible as trying tell someone what the biggest number is. Calling it "omnipotence" is as bad as calling it "infinity".

 

[salida]

There are no problems at all here.

1) No, He can't.
2) For creation to happen, the Creator can't be limited to physical laws. He is supernatural and can break His own natural laws.
3) No one is [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing anything. Visit , Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/ Can you keep all the 10 Commandments all the time 100% of the time? Only Jesus could. The other religions think they can work to get salvation - God isn't impressed with a bunch of aunts trying to build him a house. We are his creatures. Gods standards are light years above us - without grace its impossible. Grace is a gift.

4) We praise a perfect infinite God, who is all knowing. What does art have to do with it? What is weak? The Bible is the most true book in the world period because of its overwhelming evidence. Read, The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it is overwhelming evidence that would stand up in a court of law without a shadow of a doubt concerning biblical evidence). Would you believe it if you read it? Have you already made up your mind no matter what? Are you sincere or just trying to sound clever? I can give you much more information, but I'm not interested in doing so if your just trying to sound clever. I don't have time to waste.

 

[ephraimanesti]

"And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God OMNIPOTENT reigns!"(Revelation 19:6)

If the word "OMNIPOTENT" is good enough for the heavenly hosts, far from pussyfooting around the Truth and arguing the point, i am going to agree wholeheartedly and join them!

Our God is indeed an awesome God, and His Omnipotency is only one of His glorious attributes! May all believers continue to fearlessly extol them all!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[Dragonbait]

What about the problem of omnipotent and omniscient?
If god is Omnipotent he can change anything he wants.
If god is Omniscient then he knows everything that will ever happen.
But that means that god cannot be both, because if he knows everything thats going to happen, and changes it, then his forsight was wrong.
likewise if his forsight is correct then he cannot change anything.

 

[ephraimanesti]

What about the problem of omnipotent and omniscient?
If god is Omnipotent he can change anything he wants.
If god is Omniscient then he knows everything that will ever happen.
But that means that god cannot be both, because if he knows everything thats going to happen, and changes it, then his forsight was wrong.
likewise if his forsight is correct then he cannot change anything.

MY FRIEND--Your question has no basis in reality so no answer is possible--or necessary.

ephraim

 

[Dragonbait]

MY FRIEND--Your question has no basis in reality so no answer is possible--or necessary.

ephraim

A Christian realises a question about God has "No Basis in reality"!

There's hope for the Human race after all!

 

[truthiness]

A Christian realises a question about God has "No Basis in reality"!

There's hope for the Human race after all!

Note to self: Spell check before finalizing post.

That being said, there is one quote that sticks out in my mind again and again...
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus

 

[ephraimanesti]

A Christian realises a question about God has "No Basis in reality"!

The point--apparently too abtruse for the average evolved-animal-brain--is that the question posed has no basis in reality as it pertains to God's being and attributes.

There's hope for the Human race after all!

There is indeed, because of God's Love and Grace demonstrated so clearly on Calvary two thousand years ago, much hope for the human race . . . . also, perhaps, even for "evolved animals" who, tired of crawling through the muck in darkness, come to a realization of their true identity and heritage as God's beloved children, and choose to stand erect like human beings and walk out into the Light.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

That being said, there is one quote that sticks out in my mind again and again...
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus

Epicurus fails to consider--perhaps due to living before our Lord was enfleshed--that the evil which is such an obvious part of the world around us is caused by human beings, not by God. One of God's greatest gifts to human beings--perhaps second only to the gift of His Son--is free-will, the giving of which He has bound Himself not to violate.

God is obviously quite able--given that He created the universe and all things within it.

He is also quite willing, given that He gave His only begotten Son in order to overcome the evil mankind has brought upon the earth.

The final outcome is up to us, and, given that all evil stems from disobedience to God and a refusal to avail ourselves of the Cure-All for evil freely offered by God--His Son and our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ--obviously atheists are part of the problem and not of the solution.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OUR OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[truthiness]

The final outcome is up to us, and, given that all evil stems from disobedience to God and a refusal to avail ourselves of the Cure-All for evil freely offered by God--His Son and our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ--obviously atheists are part of the problem and not of the solution.

I was actually under the assumption that all evil stems from Satan influencing mens minds and souls, not disobedience to God. I feel the only real love is unconditional. If there must be so many provisions to gather before recieving that love, then following the road less traveled would be my choice 10/10 times. If living a good, full, and morally sound life is still sin then yes I am a part of the problem. But I also fail to see how a differing viewpoint is construed as a threat to you personally. I am not asking you to see the world as I do, nor am I professing how wrong I believe you to be. Your blatant attack towards me and likeminded people proves the ignorance you have in your own belief structure.

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brothers eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother,˜Let me take the speck out of your eye, and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers eye. Matthew 7:1-6

 

[ephraimanesti]

I was actually under the assumption that all evil stems from Satan influencing mens minds and souls, not disobedience to God.

You also, apparently, are under the assumption that there is no God. You are mistaken on both points.

I feel the only real love is unconditional. If there must be so many provisions to gather before recieving that love, then following the road less traveled would be my choice 10/10 times.

The only "provisions" to receiving God's Unconditional Love are humility and a willingness to surrender completely to that Love. The Love is there for all but, unfortunately, is spurned by most--atheists, for example.

If living a good, full, and morally sound life is still sin then yes I am a part of the problem.

This is correct.

But I also fail to see how a differing viewpoint is construed as a threat to you personally. I am not asking you to see the world as I do, nor am I professing how wrong I believe you to be.

The "differing viewpoint" is in no way a threat to me--it is a threat to those holding it.

Your blatant attack towards me and likeminded people proves the ignorance you have in your own belief structure.

My attack is in no way directed at you personally but at the lethal virus--atheism--you carry.

i must admit to ignorance in many areas of our walk with God, but none of them have been expressed outside of my prayers for understanding, so i am not sure exactly what you are alluding to.

Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brothers eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother,˜Let me take the speck out of your eye, and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers eye. Matthew 7:1-6

i love it when atheists quote Scripture--i take it to be a sign of hope even if the Scripture lacks appropriateness. Thank you!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim