Why I'm Orthodox . . . and why others may want to be too.

[vanshan]

What greater truths can I learn from the Orthodox church?
While I feel Orthodoxy may have been the first church established, I have trouble equating that to mean its the true church. . . Shouldnt that be our focus, instead of debating who's church is truer?

Well said, Lucas, I am a poor representation of Christ's Church, but I hope some can see past my errors, and the errors of others in the Church, to see the bigger picture, which is that Christ's Church, which we read about in scripture never died, it was never overcome completely with darkness, nor was it ever destroyed by corruption. Yes, individuals have sinned, taught error, and were corrupted, but these were all overcome, and the gates of hell did not triumph over our humble Church, which may lack the outward grandeur of Rome, but inside is full of much greater spiritual riches than I am able to describle.

We alone have preserved the orthodox view of sin and Christ's atonenment, which makes a world of difference in how we deal with sin and view ourselves. We are sick with sin, because death is in the the world still, but Christ triumphed over death, so that we might again have our true god-like nature restored.

Basil

 

[GraceInHim]

Well you were mistaken because I am only giving the objective reasons why the Church will do an annulment... It has nothing to do with you, I have no clue and it’s not my concern about your marital status .

that means dislike? Sneak?

calm down and remember, I never once said anything bad about your church or anyone on CF - I asked questions and TLF & VNV answered them already - that is called discussion, debating with respect.... and I would greatly appreciate if you stop thinking because I was RC - that I dislike or sneak... what have I ever called you?

now give me a big hug and let us place this behind? I won't bite

 

[thereselittleflower]

Terese, I do not agree, the purpose of this thread is NOT about remarriage... it is about a member of CF who wanted to discuss his belief and the beliefs of the Eastern Orthodox church.

Thornygrace. . .

First, please don't misrepresent what I said. Please don't take my words out of context .

One of the issues brought by the OP was that the Orthodox Church is the One Church because it has never changed its doctrines.

That claim was challenged and not just by me.

One of the evidences brought against that claim ins support of the challenge to it was the fact that the Orthodox Church has departed from the teaching of the Early Church on the matter of remarriage after divorce.

So yes, this thread is very much about remarraige as this is one of the issues the Orthodox have changed their teaching on and is what we are discussing in relation to the bold claim made by the OP and other Orthodox in this thread.

That is the context of my words . .

You have used this thread to discuss how you personally feel that a woman who has been beaten and abandoned even if she is young, say 20 years old and to say that she can never remarry for the rest of her life... and is instead to remain alone and lonely forever while alive....

I have not! Now, please stop attributing to me things I have never said . . . I am wonderieng if you ever bothered to read through the thread.

Now that you have grosslsy misrepresented what I have said or even attempted to say, please provde the evidence from my words to back up such an inflammatory accusation.

That is cruel and heartless. And I will point out to you that it is NOT how the Roman Catholic faith would deal with her. She would be allowed to get an annulment and to remarry again.

Provide the Proof that I ever said such a thing Do you believe the Orthodox Church also sanctions bearing false witness against another?

In EO we do not do annulments. We have confession and a time of pennance and Spiritual Direction by our Priest in who in turn consults with the Bishop over them.

And your Church allows people to enter into an adulterous relationship with the approval and sanction of the Church. Yes, we know. . that is what we have been discussing . . .

Then, in some circumstances the woman is allowed to remarry... but the next wedding sacriment is not the same as an original marriage sacriment... It includes continued prayers of forgiveness.

While they live a life of adultery sanctioned by the Church if they were originally validly married sacramentally. Yes, this is the problem we have with it.

This is in direct opposition to the words of Christ your LORD .. .

What God has joined together let NO man put assunder. . . . He who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. He causes her to commit adultery and the one who marries her to commit adultery


Your Church IGNORES these words of Christ in favor of showing compassion and "mercy" . . . . I and others have presented a great deal of evidence in support of our position and concerns. . . the EO have presented virtually nothing in the way of objective evidence to support their position, mostly appeals to emotion in favor of your position allowing remarriage and apeals to emotion agaisnt our position as being cruel and heartless.

Truth matters thornygrace

This process is a healing process, not a legal process.

And I think the EO gets too hung up on calling things a "legal process" that aren't "legal" at all . . .

The process the Catholic Church goes through is governed by laws, yes, Laws of God . . if you want to call the Laws of God legalism then that is your perrogative of course.

We prefer to view God's Laws, which are absolutes and not relative, as our guiding light. The Catholic Church attempts to make sure that She does not mislead Her flock into coimmiting sin which harms the soul and one's relationship with God.

It is CARE for one's soul in the greatest sense to strive to determine if a marriage was sacramentally valid or not . .. for if it was not, then there was no marriage in the eyes oaf God and the person is free to remarry . .

If it WAS sacramentally valid, if the people were joined together by God in their midst, then NO man may put them assunder and the Church WILL NOT violate God's Law, which is light to our feet, by showing a human version of compassion which IGNORES God's Law . . . If the Catholic Church did what the Orthodox Church does, then it would be turning God's Law regarding marriage and divorce and remarriage, which is light to our feet, into darkness.

That is not what the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth does. . . .


Pelase consider the gangrene analogy I gave above.




Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

well, it was about that at one time...

And it would have only been that if the OP himself hadn't drug the Catholic Church into it and made false claims against Her and about his own Church.

until Therese had to completely derail it.

You can't derail a thread discussing what the OP has chosen to include as part of the thread or challenging the claims made by the OP.

Please stop making false accusations.

Not to mention disgusting.

Which is more so what I have been accused of saying? Or bearing false witness against another?


Peace to all

 

[vanshan]

For the first time, I have been warmed with tears of joy, seeing in greater measure, the incredible goodness of God. He sent His Son, not to die to appease some transcendent law of justice which required Him to kill Christ to forgive man's transgressions, but instead, it was God who came as the Incarnate son to help His pitiful creation, which had brought the curse of death upon himself through disobedience with God, the source of life. So by rebelling we invite death and corrupted the world, enslaving ourselves to sin. In love, Christ came to intervene for us, becoming a living sacrifce, not to God, but to defeat death's affect. He died to overcome the curse of death for us, out of nothing but His love for us.

This understanding undid the years I spent trying to reconcile how a loving God could possibly be so offended by His creation that blood had to be shed for Him to forgive us. Either a higher law of justice ruled over God Himself, He was vengeful, or He was not really that loving, and really a hypocrite for telling us to forgive everyone, but He Himself could not forgive us without killing God the Son. The Roman Catholic view of the atonement is erroneous and creates a god that is a mean monster, not a lover of mankind.

Basil

 

[jameseb]

And your Church allows people to enter into an adulterous relationship with the approval and sanction of the Church. Yes, we know. . that is what we have been discussing . . .

While they live a life of adultery sanctioned by the Church if they were originally validly married sacramentally. Yes, this is the problem we have with it.

I do believe the Church has just been insulted. You cannot even acknowledge that this is based on your Roman Catholic beliefs... granted, it may be your matter-of-fact belief, of which you are unapologetic for, but this just comes across as insulting.

This is in direct opposition to the words of Christ your LORD .. .

I dunno, call me crazy, but I seem to recall something about marital unfaithfulness being mentioned....

 

[Loukuss]

It does speak volumes, I’m not going there, I am just pointing out your illogical justification for thinking our sins are greater than anyone’s else. In a way they are because to who much is given much is expected but the other Christian faiths are just as sinful if not more and exposing it proves nothing other that to justify the atheists atheism.

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Did I say that your chruch's sins were greater than any other churchs? Not once. Stop playing that game. Its annoying and you lose crediability in your arguments.
What I was saying was that the catholic church has a LARGE problem with pedolphilia amongst the priesthood. This problem is further compounded by the fact that the church hides and protects them from punishment. If your church took a firm stand and stopped this, maybe the problem wouldnt be as prevalent. Who knows? I think that the problem stems from the fact that your clergy are not allowed to marry, thus they have all these sexual tensions demonizing them. Paul told those at Corinth :
"I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. " Cor 7:8

...and exposing it proves nothing other that to justify the atheists atheism

That's rich.
I'm not talking to atheists right now, so your point is irrelevant and useless. I'm pointing out the sins of your church because they are problems that need to be dealt with. if you pointed out problems in my church, I wouldnt turn around and say, "Stop giving the atheists ammunition!"

What a terrible argument....

 

[Loukuss]

Well said, Lucas, I am a poor representation of Christ's Church, but I hope some can see past my errors, and the errors of others in the Church, to see the bigger picture, which is that Christ's Church, which we read about in scripture never died, it was never overcome completely with darkness, nor was it ever destroyed by corruption. Yes, individuals have sinned, taught error, and were corrupted, but these were all overcome, and the gates of hell did not triumph over our humble Church, which may lack the outward grandeur of Rome, but inside is full of much greater spiritual riches than I am able to describle.

We alone have preserved the orthodox view of sin and Christ's atonenment, which makes a world of difference in how we deal with sin and view ourselves. We are sick with sin, because death is in the the world still, but Christ triumphed over death, so that we might again have our true god-like nature restored.

Basil

Well, I will definetly dig deeper into this Orthodox church. If it is what you say it is, I have no reason not to try it out.

Thanks brother!

Lucas

 

[vanshan]

The winner of these senseless debates is not the one who has typed in more posts, responded to every accusation, or even used the best rhetoric. The winner is whoever is right. We may not resolved this question adequately, but we must all seek the truth, not just stay with whatever is comfortable. If that were the case I'd be back at the nearest Christian Center wailing in tongues and bouncing around to emotioally charged praise and worship songs. The truth can be found in history, but there are conflicting reports that have come down to us, so we must test the different accounts, pray, and have the courage to explore the truth over time.

Basil

 

[thereselittleflower]

But if God, in His mercy, forgives the person, is the subsequent marriage adultery--of course not.

Here is the problem in a nut shell Basil . . thank you for so clearly stating it.

You have assusmed facts not in evidence Basil . . .

You have assumed that forgivness equals an endorsement of the act.


You have assumed that if God has forgiven the divorce, then He has ENDORSED IT!


Please show me any example where when Jesus forgives sin, He ENDORSED the sin!


Let me say it again . . .


Your statement above assumes that if God forgives the sin of divorce, then He has ENDORSED the divorce.


Now . .let's apply that logic to other areas, for if it is true, then it is universally true, for God's truth is absolute, not relative . . .


Two people are living together without being married committing the sin of fornication.

The repent of their sin and seek forgiveness.

God forgives them. and they continue to live together.


Does this mean then that God has endorsed their living together and commtting fornication?


Let's say you steal $1000 from a friend.

You repent of this deed . . . You ask God for forgiveness . . . He forgives you . .

Does this mean that the deed and everything related to it is wiped clean as if it never happened? Do you get to keep the $1000 and do with it what you want?



What you are claiming here Basil is that when a couple repentes and seeks and receives forgiveness for a divorce, for not having honored their marriage vows, and God forgives them, that God basically treats the divorce and the marriage as if it never happened . . .

If this is how God treats sins that are forgiven, then this would be seen universally . . . .


Can you show me any other sin that God treats that way?



No Basil . . . this is a serous flaw in resoning and logic being used to justify the teaching and position of the Orthodox Church allowing remairrage after divorce even if it results in the people remarried being in an adulterous relationship.


The first marriage never becomes anything other than a marriage joined by God if God joined it in the first place. There can be no other marriage joned by God as long as both spouse of the original marriage live.


A second marriage under such circumstances cannot be a Sacramental Marriage . . .

That is because an pre-existing Sacramental Marriage already exists regardless of any legal standing of the marriage in secular court.


That means any other union except the original union is an adulterous one . . . .


This is what the Orthodox Church permits.



Peace to all

 

[Loukuss]

And it would have only been that if the OP himself hadn't drug the Catholic Church into it and made false claims against Her and about his own Church.

Therese the Champion, at it again! *cue the lions roaring*

I'm sorry, but I dont remember it that way. I seem to remember Basil trying to talk about his church- which he also brought up the schism and such with the RCC- but I dont remember him making false claims. But maybe thats because I just dont think they're false...

You can't derail a thread discussing what the OP has chosen to include as part of the thread or challenging the claims made by the OP.

You've derailed this thread, Therese. Now I know why all these people PM me and tell me its easier if I just put you on my ignore list.

Peace to all

If you are really going to conclude with this after every post, can you actually show it through your words? I see you bringing no peace to ANY of the threads you write in. I see you slicing through threads with a catholic machete, with anything uncatholic taking the full force of your fury.

If you are going to talk about peace, shouldnt you know something about it?

 

[Benedicta00]

Who knows? I think that the problem stems from the fact that your clergy are not allowed to marry

How do you figure? if a perosn can not marry they want children? please...

, thus they have all these sexual tensions demonizing them. Paul told those at Corinth :

grown men wanting children has nothing to do with them being celibate, please.... it has to do with the fact that they are sick and there are sick ppl everywhere not just catholic priests. This is not an expulsive catholic priest problem. It exists everywhere and even everywhere where men are married and still molest kids so I have no idea why you think celibacy is the reason. That’s stupid to even say so.

"I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. " Cor 7:8

You you say this verse proves this is wht they molste kids? Oh brother.

That's rich.
I'm not talking to atheists right now, so your point is irrelevant and useless. I'm pointing out the sins of your church because they are problems that need to be dealt with.

I know they do, show me once where i said they didn't?

I think we need to start with the parents of their kids, what is wring with them? If the kid is molested then call the police, don’t go to the bishop and take a bribe. Parents who know their kids were molested and did not go to the police, just went to the bishop are just as guilty for allowing the priest access to other kids.

if you pointed out problems in my church, I wouldnt turn around and say, "Stop giving the atheists ammunition!"

What a terrible argument....

No, it is the reality of why so may do not believe. Like Ghundi said, he would be a Christian if only he ever met one.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Shelb5

Nothing on this earth can dissolve a marriage that God made
​

The postion of the Orthodox Church is the same. Only God can forgive sin.

Basil . . please show how forgiveness of sin EQUALS dissolution of marriage.



Peace to all

 

[vanshan]

You have assusmed facts not in evidence Basil . . .

You have assumed that forgivness equals an endorsement of the act.


You have assumed that if God has forgiven the divorce, then He has ENDORSED IT!

Who are you even arguing with at this point? Are you trying to convince yourself that God cannot allow remarriage, because it would cause your theological world to crumble?

Look at the way you are debating. This may be fine for the courts, but only Pharisees argue this way about what God permits and doesn't permit. We know how Jesus responded to those who are so legalistic and rigid.

God is not permitting sin, if He forgives someone for their weakness in not being able to 1. stay in an abusive marriage or with a partner who cheats, 2. not being able to remain celibate for their remaining life after a failed marriage. God can allow remarriage if He wants to, right? If He allows remarriage is it sin? Can God sin? I think that's the direction you're headed and the answer is, "No, He can't."

Please, Therese, stop arguing about old issues, and driving people further from Roman Catholicism, since your goal is to see everyone join your religion.

Basil

 

[Iollain]

The Bible says the only time divorce is allowed between Christians, is for fornication.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Because even marriage covenants or sacraments are not beyond God's power to forgive--He is greater than that commitment, His mercy endures.

Basil

Basil . . .

This is one of the strangest things I have ever heard . . .

God forgives SIN Basil . . .

You just treated Marriage Covenants and Sacraments as SIN!




Your words above are essentially saying the same thing as

Sacraments = Sin




You only forgive sin Basil . . . You forgive EVIL that has been done to you . . .

IF you say that God forgives SACRAEMENTS then you have equated SACRAMENTS with EVIL, with WRONG DOING, with SIN..


I think you should go back and talk to your priest about this, for your words, taken the way you presented them, ie Sacraments as something for God to forgive (which equates it with sin), are blasphemous!




Peace to all

 

[lmnop9876]

This is one of the strangest things I have ever heard . . .

God forgives SIN Basil . . .

You just treated Marriage Covenants and Sacraments as SIN!




Your words above are essentially saying the same thing as

Sacraments = Sin




You only forgive sin Basil . . . You forgive EVIL that has been done to you . . .

IF you say that God forgives SACRAEMENTS then you have equated SACRAMENTS with EVIL, with WRONG DOING, with SIN..


I think you should go back and talk to your priest about this, for your words, taken the way you presented them, ie Sacraments as something for God to forgive (which equates it with sin), are blasphemous!

perhaps he's talking about breaking the marriage covenant or misusing the sacraments?

 

[CaDan]

I dunno, call me crazy, but I seem to recall something about marital unfaithfulness being mentioned....

You have totally stolen my tag line, perfidious Greek!

Is outrage!

 

[vanshan]

How do you figure? if a perosn can not marry they want children? please...

I think extreme sexual frustration can be played out in a number of immoral ways, so why not a frustrated priest expressing his rampant sexual desire to the only innocent target he has access to?

I think the innovation of a celebate priesthood is something the Roman Catholic religion really needs to revisit. You can't keep doing what your doing, since it's not working for you.

I have heard that there was a time when the Universal Church also began requiring celibate priests, but that innovation was ended in the east, so it's not a requirement, nor are celibate priests made parish priests. It really works well for the Orthodox, so have your hierarchy look into the possibility.

Basil

 

[geocajun]

The Bible says the only time divorce is allowed between Christians, is for fornication.

1. Fornication is sex between UNMARRIED persons.
2. Jesus corrected Moses, who allowed divorce only because of the hardness of hearts which is not allowed in the new covenant.