Why I'm Orthodox . . . and why others may want to be too.

[vanshan]

God forgives SIN Basil . . .

You just treated Marriage Covenants and Sacraments as SIN!

Yes, Therese, you are bright enough to figure out that I mean, more precisely, as I have already said, that God allows someone out of the commitment of marriage to remarry. He forgives the sin of breaking the sacrament of matrimony to remarry. Okay? In extreme cases His mercy is sought, and given I believe.

Basil

 

[thereselittleflower]

Let's agree to disagree, because the coversation is unprofitable. I think we all have seen the spirit of the Roman Catholic dogma on marriage adequately showcased here for all to see.

Basil

What does this mean Basil? That you will stop claiming that the EO is the one true Church? That you will stop claiming that the Catholic Church is heterodox and has changed Her doctrines without?

As long as these claims are being made, then we are going to challenge them and defend our Church against such false claims.


The reason this thread went the directionit did is you were unable to say why you were Orthodox without attacking our Church.

If people are going to attack our Church, then I hope they expect and are ready for us to defend Her.

If people are going to make false claims about their own in the porcess, as was done in the OP of this thread and throughout this thread, then I hope they expect and are ready for us to challenge those claims.

Now that it has been harder to substantiate the claims about your own Church and the attacks made against ours, you want to simply dismiss the whole thing?


We'll see . . . let's see what else has been posted that needs defending against or challenged . . .



TRUTH matters.



Peace to all

 

[CaDan]

Well, I will definetly dig deeper into this Orthodox church. If it is what you say it is, I have no reason not to try it out.

Thanks brother!

Lucas

Hmm . . .

Perhaps it's time for a change of tactics.

Come back! We have BINGO!

 

[geocajun]

I do believe the Church has just been insulted. You cannot even acknowledge that this is based on your Roman Catholic beliefs... granted, it may be your matter-of-fact belief, of which you are unapologetic for, but this just comes across as insulting.

Hi James, first let me say that it is a huge problem in catechesis when we speak of our faith as if its one plausible belief among many. We don't say "the catholic chuch teaches" as a prefix because what the catholic church teaches what is reality, not just some philisophical opinion. If we treat it like a matter of opinion, we are in danger of treating our own and other opinions as if they are equally apt on the matter.

Secondly, you want to talk about insults?
in the post just above yours, your own brother says:

The Roman Catholic view of the atonement is erroneous and creates a god that is a mean monster, not a lover of mankind.

Now, that's insulting, and it's baloney, and I think James, that you know better and that isn't what your Church teaches either. At least i've always known you to be a level headed and charitable man.
Consider that here we have a thread which exists just so an EO adherent can talk about the insufficiency of everyone elses church, and particularly the catholic church. I guess publically admonishing a brother about the tone of his thread and the insulting things he has said such as up above would perhaps be asking too much, but, if you are going to turn your head at this uncharitable behavior, then at least be consistant about it.
However, if offering correction, which I believe you are aptly qualified to do, then I also ask that you be consistent about that, and help your EO brother see the errors in his own words through the thread.

 

[vanshan]

I know you believe you are a righteous avenger of Christ, but do you think your methods carry with them the fragrance of Christ? It's clear from many reponses you are getting from people on here that you have a notorious reputation for being argumentative. I know of no saints who had this trait. There were those who humbly maintained the truth, even to the point of exile or death, but they were never recorded as being canonized for displays of aggression . . . maybe your Roman Catholic saints are different, but please, be kind.

Basil

 

[Loukuss]

How do you figure? if a perosn can not marry they want children? please...

I'm not even sure what you're saying..
English please?

grown men wanting children has nothing to do with them being celibate, please.... it has to do with the fact that they are sick and there are sick ppl everywhere not just catholic priests. This is not an expulsive catholic priest problem. It exists everywhere and even everywhere where men are married and still molest kids so I have no idea why you think celibacy is the reason. That’s stupid to even say so.

Your'e just full of ad hominem attacks eh? Now I'm stupid to think that the problem may arise from the fact the celebacy could be the problem? Paul says that "it is better to marry than to burn". Why does he say that? Because we are sexual creatures and it is better for us to marry, and have that release than to stay celebate and battle those sexual demons. I didnt say this, Paul did. Maybe I'm reading mroe into what he said than I should, but I dont see how I have.
Celebacy isnt the only possible reason. I just cant think of any others, besides the fact that the church endorses sick men as clergy.
I never said it was exclusively a catholic problem. I said that the problem is worse in the catholic church.

You you say this verse proves this is wht they molste kids? Oh brother.

Did I ever say "proves"? Slap your head again, buddy...

I know they do, show me once where i said they didn't?

You ingored what I wrote.

I think we need to start with the parents of their kids, what is wring with them? If the kid is molested then call the police, don’t go to the bishop and take a bribe. Parents who know their kids were molested and did not go to the police, just went to the bishop are just as guilty for allowing the priest access to other kids.

We need to start with the parents?!?!? WHAT?! Are you kidding me?
That is not the place to start AT ALL! Is this the way catholics think? The parents should be held responsible? Thats just sick.
We need to start with the church, and everyones knows that! You think your church cannot do wrong, and you throw these blinders on. WAKE UP!
This problem stems from your church, so stop deflecting it onto others. Take some sort of responsibility for once! if your church didnt allow this to happen, this would be all be moot.
I agree, people shouldnt take bribes, and people should always go to the police, but you are just representing a small percentage of the cases and trying to make it the majority. It doesnt work that way.

No, it is the reality of why so may do not believe. Like Ghundi said, he would be a Christian if only he ever met one.

Again, I'm NOT debating against atheists right now. Is that clear?
This is just another way for catholics to dismiss the issue altogether.
Suit yourself. enjoy that bubble you live in...

 

[Benedicta00]

The winner of these senseless debates is not the one who has typed in more posts, responded to every accusation, or even used the best rhetoric. The winner is whoever is right. We may not resolved this question adequately, but we must all seek the truth, not just stay with whatever is comfortable. If that were the case I'd be back at the nearest Christian Center wailing in tongues and bouncing around to emotioally charged praise and worship songs. The truth can be found in history, but there are conflicting reports that have come down to us, so we must test the different accounts, pray, and have the courage to explore the truth over time.

Basil

The winner is the one who can actually answer questions. You have not done this, You say everyone should be orthodox but yet give no accent when it is challenged. How do you expect ppl to convert when you can not provide adequate answers when asked questions?

We repeatedly asked you to tell just where you get this notion that penance dissolves marriages and you refuse to answer. It is in bible? Is it a matter of Tradition? What, what is it, where does this understanding come from?

 

[Benedicta00]

I know you believe you are a righteous avenger of Christ, but do you think your methods carry with them the fragrance of Christ? It's clear from many reponses you are getting from people on here that you have a notorious reputation for being argumentative. I know of no saints who had this trait. There were those who humbly maintained the truth, even to the point of exile or death, but they were never recorded as being canonized for displays of aggression . . . maybe your Roman Catholic saints are different, but please, be kind.

Basil

It would help if you remove the telephone pole before you point out the toothpick

 

[Loukuss]

I know you believe you are a righteous avenger of Christ, but do you think your methods carry with them the fragrance of Christ? It's clear from many reponses you are getting from people on here that you have a notorious reputation for being argumentative. I know of no saints who had this trait. There were those who humbly maintained the truth, even to the point of exile or death, but they were never recorded as being canonized for displays of aggression . . . maybe your Roman Catholic saints are different, but please, be kind.

Basil

Well said, Basil.

 

[CaDan]

The winner is the one who can actually answer questions. You have not done this, You say everyone should be orthodox but yet give no accent when it is challenged. How do you expect ppl to convert when you can not provide adequate answers when asked questions?

There's winners here?

Funny, I thought this was just a discussion board.

 

[vanshan]

Consider that here we have a thread which exists just so an EO adherent can talk about the insufficiency of everyone elses church, and particularly the catholic church. I guess publically admonishing a brother about the tone of his thread and the insulting things he has said such as up above would perhaps be asking too much, but, if you are going to turn your head at this uncharitable behavior, then at least be consistant about it.
However, if offering correction, which I believe you are aptly qualified to do, then I also ask that you be consistent about that, and help your EO brother see the errors in his own words through the thread.

Forgive me for offending you by critically analyzing the religion you hold dear, but because truth matters to us, we must differentiate between, what is, in our view, the counterfeit, "catholic" church, and the one which is truly universal. There is no way to contrast the two, without giving our estimation of the Roman Catholic religion, so why be offended. Start a thread about Why you're Roman Catholic . . . and others may want to be too. You may need to point out why someone should choose your religion over the Orthodox Church, but I promise not to be defensive.

Basil

 

[Loukuss]

It would help if you remove the telephone pole before you point out the toothpick

Are you going to take your own advice?

 

[geocajun]

Forgive me for offending you by critically analyzing the religion you hold dear, but because truth matters to us, we must differentiate between, what is, in our view, the counterfeit, "catholic" church, and the one which is truly universal. There is no way to contrast the two, without giving our estimation of the Roman Catholic religion, so why be offended. Start a thread about Why you're Roman Catholic . . . and others may want to be too. You may need to point out why someone should choose your religion over the Orthodox Church, but I promise not to be defensive.

Basil

Vanshan, we, as Catholics, do not prove our Catholicity at the expense of others as you've attempted to do in this thread.

We prove our Catholicity by the our Church carrying with it, the 4 marks of the Church. It is One, Holy, Catholic, and Aposotlic. This is a unique quality of our Church and we believe it stands on its own merits without needing to start threads pointing at the insufficiency of anyone elses church.
Thanks but not thanks, we don't work that way.

 

[geocajun]

Are you going to take your own advice?

Lucas, you've shown up at the 8th hour doing nothing but instigating. Would you mind having a seat?

 

[JimfromOhio]

After 713 posts:
Shelb5 112
vanshan 101
thereselittleflower 86
geocajun 53
CaDan 46
Iollain 45
GraceInHim 43
eoe 20
JimfromOhio 18
LucasGoltz 18
VNVnation 16
nephilimiyr 15
stone 12
tall73 11
InnerPhyre 9
djns9437 9
contriteHeart 8
Annabel Lee 6
Albion 6
fragmentsofdreams 5
Aloha Joe 5
jameseb 5
Polycarp1 5
Isaiah 53 5
Gods Revenger 4
debiwebi 4
ammagedon 4
Canadian75 4
prodromos 4
thornygrace 3
seebs 3
frumanchu 3
Perceivence 2
injesuschrist 2
Warrior Poet 2
revrobor 2
AwesomeMachine 2
A. believer 2
U R my Sonshine 1
twosid 1
jonas3 1
CaliforniaJosiah 1
Longing4Home 1
proud2bcatholic 1
Axion 1
Mea Culpa 1
pjw 1
TheDag 1
RottenApple 1
intricatic 1
Espada 1
franky67 1

 

[geocajun]

Marks of the Catholic Church:

http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Continue reading here: http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp

 

[thereselittleflower]

What would it take for God to dissolve this covenant? Is He powerful enough to do so, in your faith?

Basil

Basil . .what would it take for God to violate His Own Laws?


A Covnenant is NOT a mere Contract . . .

A CONTRACT can be broken it is a legal issue .. it is an exchange of GOODS . .. .


a COVENANT CANNOT be broken . . . It ONLY ENDS WITH THE DEATH of one of the members. . .


A COVENANT is an exchange of PERSONS . .. It is LIFELONG!


God cannot dissolve a COVENANT without VIOLATING HIS OWN Laws!


Now tell me . . . Does God VIOLATE His Own Laws Basil?


Your treatment of marriage is as if it is a contract that can be broken. . . .

That means that instead of Marriage being an EXCHANGE OF PERSONS, it is merely an exchange of GOODS! . . .

That makes the man and wife and what they offer each other just so much "Goods" .


This is a degredation of what MARRIAGE JOINED BY GOD is . . .

This may be all it is in the secular world .. . but it is not ALL it is in GOD'S Eyes!


A COVENANT is LIFE long and can ONLY be dissolved on the death of one of the members.


Now, Jesus said that the only reason that a divorce could be granted is in the case of fornication . . .


BUT, there is something very interesting in what Jesus said that is not apparent in the English divorced by time and space from the culture it was said in . . .


In Ancient Israel, the Betrothal began the marriage . . .

If, during the time of the Betrothal, BEFORE the actualy marriage ceremony and consumation, the bride was to have sexula relations with another man, then the husband (husband to be) could put her away by divorce.

This ONLY applied to the prenuptual time period . . . .


Now, this has great application for us as Chrsitians apart from the immediate topic at hand .. .


Our entrance into the NEW Covenant is like the betrothal . . . . this is the time period we are in in our relationship with Christ in this life on earth.


IF we are unfaithful to our spouse, Christ our Lord, if we turn away from Him in this life wihtout being reconciled, then we can be "put away" given a "divorce" . . . that would mean we don't go to the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven.

Our betrothal to Christ would not be consummated with perfect union with Him in Heaven.


Just as a bride betrothed, who is faithful to her husband will be joined fully to her husband in marriage and the marriage consumated, so will our betrothal to Christ . . . .

Just as we can be "divorced" before this consumation of our betrothal to Christ for our unfaithfulness, for our turning our back on our convenant with Him, so can a bride who is betrothed when found unfaithful to her convanental vows before consumation.


This is what Jesus was speaking of regarding being able to divorce one's "wife" . . this is speaking to what happens during the betrothal period . . no more than that.


Marriage, when GOD has joined two together, CANNOT be put assunder by man. God makes no provision for Him violating His Own Laws to do it Himself either . . .


When God speaks of divorcing Israel in the Old Testament, keep in mind it is the betrothal period as well . . . .



Peace to all

 

[vanshan]

Lucas, you've shown up at the 8th hour doing nothing but instigating. Would you mind having a seat?

Geo, you jumped in midway with nothing but attacks and criticisms, so you are in no place to act as host here, showing anyone to their seat.

Basil

 

[thereselittleflower]

After 713 posts:
Shelb5 112
vanshan 101
thereselittleflower 86
geocajun 53
CaDan 46
Iollain 45
GraceInHim 43
eoe 20
JimfromOhio 18
LucasGoltz 18
VNVnation 16
nephilimiyr 15
stone 12
tall73 11
InnerPhyre 9
djns9437 9
contriteHeart 8
Annabel Lee 6
Albion 6
fragmentsofdreams 5
Aloha Joe 5
jameseb 5
Polycarp1 5
Isaiah 53 5
Gods Revenger 4
debiwebi 4
ammagedon 4
Canadian75 4
prodromos 4
thornygrace 3
seebs 3
frumanchu 3
Perceivence 2
injesuschrist 2
Warrior Poet 2
revrobor 2
AwesomeMachine 2
A. believer 2
U R my Sonshine 1
twosid 1
jonas3 1
CaliforniaJosiah 1
Longing4Home 1
proud2bcatholic 1
Axion 1
Mea Culpa 1
pjw 1
TheDag 1
RottenApple 1
intricatic 1
Espada 1
franky67 1

Someone has WAY too much time on their hands!



Peace to all

 

[vanshan]

We prove our Catholicity by the our Church carrying with it, the 4 marks of the Church. It is One, Holy, Catholic, and Aposotlic. This is a unique quality of our Church and we believe it stands on its own merits. . .

I don't think you've made a good case here, so maybe you should take CaDan's advice and change strategies. Becoming defensive makes your case look weak, not convincing.

Basil