Why I'm Orthodox . . . and why others may want to be too.

[geocajun]

Because even marriage covenants or sacraments are not beyond God's power to forgive--He is greater than that commitment, His mercy endures.

Basil

convenants and sacraments are not in need of "forgiveness"....

Sins, which are offenses against God need forgiveness and Mercy.

Sacraments and Covenants are instituted BY God.

Secondly, where exactly in the kerygma do you find God expressing to us that He would 'dissolve' the sacramental marriage covenant for any reason?
Now tell me, do you find just the opposite? yes? no? refuse to look?

 

[vanshan]

convenants and sacraments are not in need of "forgiveness"....

Sins, which are offenses against God need forgiveness and Mercy.

Sacraments and Covenants are instituted BY God.

To break the covenant of marriage, it would require God's forgiveness, right?

 

[geocajun]

To break the covenant of marriage, it would require God's forgiveness, right?

The sin of doing so would yes, but the covenant is not 'dissolved' simply because sins are 'absolved'.

 

[Benedicta00]

What part of "Go, and sin no more" aren't you getting here?
Nobody said sinners cannot be forgiven, and you know better.
All we've done is repeat the words of God, "Go, and sin no more". We don't condone homosexual acts for the same reason, but those who've fallen can be forgiven, but never can the act of homosexuality be permitted, Nor can adultery for those who've been divorced yet live with valid/sacramental marriages.

I know.. I also fail to see why we should allow second and third marriages but forbid gay sexual unions if we are doing these things in the name of human weakness and mercy.

That would mean all sins should be allowed, not just adultry.

 

[vanshan]

Let's agree to disagree, because the coversation is unprofitable. I think we all have seen the spirit of the Roman Catholic dogma on marriage adequately showcased here for all to see.

Basil

 

[geocajun]

I know.. I also fail to see why we should allow second and third marriages but forbid gay sexual unions if we are doing these things in the name of human weakness and mercy.

That would mean all sins should be allowed, not just adultry.

Some people consider abortion to be merciful too... what a sick, sick world we live in.
Come Lord, Come!

 

[geocajun]

Let's agree to disagree, because the coversation is unprofitable. I think we all have seen the spirit of the Roman Catholic dogma on marriage adequately showcased here for all to see.

Basil

So long as we're taking parting shots then, lets remember too that we've seen adultury condoned by the Eastern Orthodox dogma, but only so many times, after 4 orso, thats it... no more adultury.

 

[Benedicta00]

The sin of doing so would yes, but the covenant is not 'dissolved' simply because sins are 'absolved'.

exactly

 

[CaDan]

John . .this also greatly dissappoints . . . . .

You have no context here . . the letter which you are quoting from provides no context either. . . . Where is the original question from St Boniface to which this is responding?

Apparently not preserved in the textual record.

This is presented it here as if it is to be understood in the context of a scarmental marriage between baptized believers . . . for that is the only context that would have direct bearing on anything we have been saying.

Considering the prior question was one of whether marriages could be solemnized within certain degrees of consanguinuity, then the context indicates this question is in pari materia with it.

Yet, this is only an assumption for there is NOTHING in the answer itself which suggests this. . . .

So it isn't a teaching on faith and morals? Okay, the charism slipped a bit that day.

This was an answer given to a MISSIONARY. . . . . This was from a MISSIONARY letter to St Boniface. That is a bit of context that is necessary, wouldn't you agree?

OK, so missionaries can be lax. That would be, perhaps, maybe, economy?

How do you know he is not speaking regarding a situation as it arises between those who are not within the Church, who are unbelievers?

And this matters exactly how? Isn't sin sin in all contexts?

And, if it was unbeleivers, why would a missionary bishop be involved at all?

No, this objection simply makes no sense.

How do you know he is not speaking regarding a situation as it arises between those where one partner of the mariage has converted and become a believer, yet their spouse is still an unbeliever ?

So that is grounds for divorce? Somehow I doubt it.

Presenting the quote stripped of what context is available, and as though it proves in some way that the West had similara views (for that is the purpose of your posting this) when you can't prove what the context of the response actually is in support of such use of it here, is extremely WEAK evidence for your case and cannot legitimately be used as evidence to support your position if you cannot prove that it is referring to what should happen when such circumstances arise between spouses who participate in a sacramentally valid marriage between two baptized believers.

He presentedthe entire paragraph, the entire answer to the question presented. He provided the link to the entire letter.

I read it.

Since you can't provide such evidence, use of this of this quote in this manner is highly fallacious.

It was not fallacious. Please, please, please avoid tossing around technical terms describing arguments if you are not going to use them correctly. It adds nothing to your rebuttal and, in fact, decreases your ethos.

 

[Benedicta00]

Let's agree to disagree, because the coversation is unprofitable. I think we all have seen the spirit of the Roman Catholic dogma on marriage adequately showcased here for all to see.

Basil

And we have seen that the EO thinks man is so animalistic he has to have sex so he has to be married (so he can have sex) even when it is a sin to do so.

 

[vanshan]

The sin of doing so would yes, but the covenant is not 'dissolved' simply because sins are 'absolved'.

What would it take for God to dissolve this covenant? Is He powerful enough to do so, in your faith?

Basil

 

[geocajun]

CaDan, do you think bickering with your brethren is helping convert Eastern Dissidents?

 

[Benedicta00]

[i]convenants and sacraments[/i] are not in need of "forgiveness"....

Sins, which are offenses against God need forgiveness and Mercy.

Sacraments and Covenants are instituted BY God.

Secondly, where exactly in the kerygma do you find God expressing to us that He would 'dissolve' the sacramental marriage covenant for any reason?
Now tell me, do you find just the opposite? yes? no? refuse to look?

exactly...

 

[Benedicta00]

What would it take for God to dissolve this covenant? Is He powerful enough to do so, in your faith?

Basil

That is what we are asking you? Where do you get as a matter revelation that repentance does?

And death is what God said will due us part...

 

[CaDan]

CaDan, do you think bickering with your brethren is helping convert Eastern Dissidents?

Bad arguments are bad arguments.

 

[Leah]

.

 

[Aloha Joe]

CaDan, do you think bickering with your brethren is helping convert Eastern Dissidents?

Do you think bickering with Eastern Dissidents is helping convert Eastern Dissidents?

Perhaps this will bring comfort in making sense of CaDan's bretheren-bickering (though this likely doesn't actually represent CaDan's motives):

1Cor 5:12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside."

 

[Leah]

Divorce? I'm sure it is civilly accepted and the Church a church would recognize you are not longer legally married but does God divorce ppl he marrys? Can you show me in the bilbe where he ever divorced any one he married?

But how are you or anyone to know that just because a church blesses a union automatically means God does??

 

[Leah]

The job of Christ's Church is to rehabilitate sinners, so I think getting tied up in an unending discussion of sin is really unfruitful. The moral direction God gives us is there to guide us away from death, which sin produces in us. We identify sin, but we must move beyond that with helping to rehabilitate the sinner, not cast them into the outer darkness of despair.

Basil

Best and smartest reply I've read in here so far.

 

[Benedicta00]

God's Revenger,

There is no dichotomy here. Priest and Pastors pray for God's blessing…

If you pray for a blessing why do you assme you will always be blessed even when you are askig for God to bless sin?

And all the Church can do is take a honest look at the marriage to see if two ppl really entered in a covenant with God- a couple who seek annulment is asked to be honest and forthcoming because we go by the honest system.

I’m sure many marriages that were annulled were perfectly valid and thus sin has been committed but the Church can only do hat she can do- if the Church is a party to the couples deception and grants an annulment to the couple anyway… then Lord have mercy on them both is all I can say- but f the couple went in sincerity and was given one in sincerity and the marriage was valid after all- then how can God fault ignorance and honest mistakes? So I am sure the sin of adultery would be forgiven in that case but it still would not dissolve the first marriage.