Why I'm Orthodox . . . and why others may want to be too.

[thereselittleflower]

The job of Christ's Church is to rehabilitate sinners, so I think getting tied up in an unending discussion of sin is really unfruitful. The moral direction God gives us is there to guide us away from death, which sin produces in us. We identify sin, but we must move beyond that with helping to rehabilitate the sinner, not cast them into the outer darkness of despair.

Basil

Basil, this is the most illogical reasoning in support of your position ever . .

Accordidng to what you just said in context with all else you have said and the position of the Orthodox Church presented in this thread,

To rehabilitate sinners, the solution is

1. to not stear them away from an adulterous lifestyle which is inherentluy sinfil on its face, but rather
2. to allow them to enter into an adulterous relationship which is inherentluy sinfil on its face
3. with the Church's sanction and blessing . . . .

Sorry . . . sanctioning sin does not rehabilitate sinners . . .. .



Peace to all

 

[geocajun]

Basil, this is the most illogical reasoning in support of your position ever . .

Accordidng to what you just said in context with all else you have said and the position of the Orthodox Church presented in this thread,

To rehabilitate sinners, the solution is

1. to not stear them away from an adulterous lifestyle which is inherentluy sinfil on its face, but rather
2. to allow them to enter into an adulterous relationship which is inherentluy sinfil on its face
3. with the Church's sanction and blessing . . . .

Sorry . . . sanctioning sin does not rehabilitate sinners . . .. .



Peace to all

Well said TLF - thats basically the crux of the difference - and the fact that we can't all see that magnifies the fruits of each ones Church' teaching about the sacraments, and about morality.
Yet another reason I find the peace of Christ in the barque of St. Peter - the Catolic Church.

 

[vanshan]

Well said TLF - thats basically the crux of the difference - and the fact that we can't all see that magnifies the fruits of each ones Church' teaching about the sacraments, and about morality.
Yet another reason I find the peace of Christ in the barque of St. Peter - the Catolic Church.

While you two are high-fiving, I'm sure the lonely divorced woman who's husband beat the snot out of, is not quite as enthusiatic, while she sits stroking her cats and looking out the window, lonley, having a crisis of faith.

Good job.

Basil

 

[Benedicta00]

While you two are high-fiving, I'm sure the lonely divorced woman who's husband beat the snot out of, is not quite as enthusiatic, while she sits stroking her cats and looking out the window, lonley, having a crisis of faith.

Good job.

Basil

And what about the man who beat her up- you guys want to give him a second chance because he needs sex and he is sorry… Do you not see how flawed this is?

Who says the women has to sit around feeling sorry for herself- maybe she can take this cross bare it and become a saint through it. Why is this not an option?

 

[vanshan]

Sorry for the sarchasm, but you two are being slick at misrepresenting the Orthodox postion--some serious strawen being beat up.

Basil

 

[geocajun]

While you two are high-fiving, I'm sure the lonely divorced woman who's husband beat the snot out of, is not quite as enthusiatic, while she sits stroking her cats and looking out the window, lonley, having a crisis of faith.

Good job.

Basil

Thats demagoguery Basil, but it doesn't suprise me after reading many of your responses in this thread so far.

A person who is abandoned by their spouse does not suffer the guilt of sin for their separation. They were innocent, however we cannot fix that they may have to live celibate lives anymore than we can fix the child born severely disfigured because his mother smoked crack while pregnant. We cannot fix that because it's the consequence of what in both cases is beyond our control.
So what do we do? blame the Church for not being comapssionate by condoning adultry? This is a misunderstanding of compassion.
The Church has no more ability to condone what is an objective moral evil, than it does to fix the physical handicap the child was born with because of his mothers sin.

Remember, Eve ate from the apple because being tempted, it seemed reasonable and it was what she wanted.

 

[Benedicta00]

Sorry for the sarchasm, but you two are being slick at misrepresenting the Orthodox postion--some serious strawen being beat up.

Basil

You have the floor to reconcile all your statements with the gospel that says no man can dissolve a marriage made by God. If a person marrys someone else and puts away his first spouse he commits the sin of adultery.

 

[vanshan]

And what about the man who beat her up- you guys want to give him a second chance because he needs sex and he is sorry… Do you not see how flawed this is?

Who says the women has to sit around feeling sorry for herself- maybe she can take this cross bare it and become a saint through it. Why is this not an option?

If God gives a genuine contrition to either party, who would the Church be to deny them the mercy that He gives. Your church's postion is a heartless legal one, with no room for God's mercy.

Basil

 

[geocajun]

If God gives a genuine contrition to either party, who would the Church be to deny them the mercy that He gives. You postion is a heartless legal one, with no room for God's mercy.

Basil

I’m sorry, but didn't you just say that we were mischaracterizing your churches position? Now who is guilty?

Now, perhaps you can explain how mercy dissolves sacraments for me...

 

[Benedicta00]

If God gives a genuine contrition to either party, who would the Church be to deny them the mercy that He gives. You postion is a heartless legal one, with no room for God's mercy.

Basil

Who is denying them mercy? We can forgive them and God does but that does not mean we can let them commit adultery. You keep saying the EO uses mercy to dissolve a marriage, where do you get this from? Where did Christ ever say that God’s mercy will dissolve marriage and let you be free to marry again?

Nothing on this earth can dissolve a marriage that God made.

 

[vanshan]

You have the floor to reconcile all your statements with the gospel that says no man can dissolve a marriage made by God. If a person marrys someone else and puts away his first spouse he commits the sin of adultery.

But if God, in His mercy, forgives the person, is the subsequent marriage adultery--of course not.

 

[Polycarp1]

Well, then, it's quite clear from the logic provided here. God has no mercy on sinners. And we're all condemned for our sins. So we can all relax and not worry about the issues here, right?

John Chrystom, John Paul II, and numerous other church leaders of the past had very little difficulty telling apart the Church and the God of whom it speaks. It seems that there's a real difficulty among some participants here in doing so.

I personally believe in a God of grace and mercy, who has the power and the intent to save sinners, and who nourishes them rather than binding them through His sacraments.

 

[Benedicta00]

But if God, in His mercy, forgives the person, is the subsequent marriage adultery--of course not.

Where do you get this from? Since when can we dissolve marriages? Since when does repentance dissolve marriage, where do you get this belief that it does from? Read this please with open eyes…

27You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
28But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.
31And it hath been said, Whoseoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce.
32But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Where is any of what you say ...repentance... in this?

 

[vanshan]

Nothing on this earth can dissolve a marriage that God made.

The postion of the Orthodox Church is the same. Only God can forgive sin.

We've exhausted this topic. I think the Roman Catholic position lacks merit, and lacks the fragrance of Christ. If you show them your heart they will give you their hand, but if your legalistic, you'll only drive sinners aways, in essence damning them, unless they are driven to Orthodoxy, which we believe is Christ's true Church.

Basil

 

[geocajun]

Well, then, it's quite clear from the logic provided here. God has no mercy on sinners. And we're all condemned for our sins. So we can all relax and not worry about the issues here, right?

John Chrystom, John Paul II, and numerous other church leaders of the past had very little difficulty telling apart the Church and the God of whom it speaks. It seems that there's a real difficulty among some participants here in doing so.

I personally believe in a God of grace and mercy, who has the power and the intent to save sinners, and who nourishes them rather than binding them through His sacraments.

What part of "Go, and sin no more" aren't you getting here?
Nobody said sinners cannot be forgiven, and you know better.
All we've done is repeat the words of God, "Go, and sin no more". We don't condone homosexual acts for the same reason, but those who've fallen can be forgiven, but never can the act of homosexuality be permitted, Nor can adultery for those who've been divorced yet live with valid/sacramental marriages.

 

[vanshan]

Double post.

 

[geocajun]

To the Catholic, we hear “Go, and sin no more” and think it means we aren’t allowed to sin anymore.

To some folks however, it would seem “Go, and sin no more” means that God just won’t notice your sins anymore.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, then, it's quite clear from the logic provided here. God has no mercy on sinners. And we're all condemned for our sins. So we can all relax and not worry about the issues here, right?

John Chrystom, John Paul II, and numerous other church leaders of the past had very little difficulty telling apart the Church and the God of whom it speaks. It seems that there's a real difficulty among some participants here in doing so.

I personally believe in a God of grace and mercy, who has the power and the intent to save sinners, and who nourishes them rather than binding them through His sacraments.

Instead of calling us unmerciful- why don’t you explain why it is you believe repentance for breaking a marriage covenant actually dissolves the marriage covenant?

 

[Benedicta00]

The postion of the Orthodox Church is the same. Only God can forgive sin.

We've exhausted this topic. I think the Roman Catholic position lacks merit, and lacks the fragrance of Christ. If you show them your heart they will give you their hand, but if your legalistic, you'll only drive sinners aways, in essence damning them, unless they are driven to Orthodoxy, which we believe it Christ's true Church.

Basil

This has nothing to do with forgiving sins this has to do with allowing ppl to sin. How do you justify this?

If we are so wrong then please tell me, where do you get that repentance means God will forget their first covenant and honor the second one?

 

[vanshan]

Instead of calling us unmerciful- why don’t you explain why it is you believe repentance for breaking a marriage covenant actually dissolves the marriage covenant?

Because even marriage covenants or sacraments are not beyond God's power to forgive--He is greater than that commitment, His mercy endures.

Basil