Why I'm Anti-Theistic

[2PhiloVoid]

I wanted to create this thread to clear a few things up.

I self identify as an atheist...and as an anti-theist (henceforth referred to as AT). There's a bad tendency amongst believers to conflate these two. The large majority of atheists on this site are not AT. The large majority of them will claim to respect the religious beliefs of others....a claim which I no longer make. I used to tell people that I respect their religious beliefs, but I realized I was only doing that out of the hope of gaining that same respect for my beliefs back from them. More often than not...I realized that my beliefs weren't respected, so I'm not going to pretend anymore.

That doesn't mean that I cannot engage you in a polite, civil, healthy exchange of ideas...I can certainly do that with religious people. However, I'm not going to concede that any religious beliefs deserve respect. Respect is earned...not handed out to everyone/everything only to be withdrawn in anger. After all, I'm not angry at religious beliefs or people. A more accurate statement would be that I pity the religious. I tend to see them as someone manipulated, someone duped, someone struggling. I hate to drag out an old cliche...but it's akin to someone walking around with a crutch. They've convinced themselves or have been convinced that the crutch helps them in their walk...that they would fall over without it...and that those without one are the ones struggling.

So why do I see things this way? Because truth. Truth is important. Truth can be ugly or beautiful...but it doesn't change according to our whims or based upon our desires/fears. Truth simply is...regardless of whether we accept it...regardless of if we even know it.

When we are faced with a difficult choice, we want truth to guide us. Specifically, we want it to guide us to outcomes that our emotions have made us desire. Truth doesn't do that. Truth guides us to outcomes that may be awful, difficult, or possibly even unbearable. Truth may also guide us to outcomes that we love, are enjoyable, or even beautiful. The point is that truth doesn't care.

Attempting to make difficult choices without truth leads to problems. It may provide a temporary relief...it may even seem to lead to success. Making choices without the truth, or worse in denial of truth, eventually results in conflict. It results in a conflict with reality...and that is a conflict that cannot be won. All you can do once you're faced with reality is accept it....or distort your perception of the truth even further.

Ultimately, that is what religion is to me. A massive distortion of the truth. A desperate attempt to distort reality. The comforts it provides are temporary...it doesn't negotiate one's life past obstacles, it denies they are there.

IMO it helps no one...it only leads to that conflict. It only holds one back. It only holds us all back.

That's why I'm an anti-theist.

Hi Ana,

I can appreciate your interest in the general concept of "Truth," (whatever that may actually be), and I can understand your desire to have other people express mutual respect toward you for your own philosophical journey in life. In all likelihood, we all want these things to some extent.

However, just as you wish for religious people to be conceptually straight as to what constitutes your approach to atheism, I likewise wish for people of other viewpoints to not assume that just because I value Christian faith, I must therefore be somewhat "soggy" in the brain. In fact, I slightly resent the condescension I see in terms that might be applied to me, terms such as "manipulated, someone duped, someone struggling." I don't think I fit any of these categories.

So, on the one hand, I empathize with your desire to be respected, but on the other, you might be careful with any kind of over-reliance on a Peter Boghossian style of interaction with all religious people. Not all of us are flakes...

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[whois]

Gnostic relates to knowledge - an agnostic does not "know".
Atheists do not "believe".

that's exactly right.
i do not know there is a god, and i'm willing to explore the possibilities of its existence.
atheist do not believe there is a god, and are unwilling at all to explore the possibilities.
in this regard, atheists and creationists are opposite sides of the same coin.
neither of which have any real evidence, but yet steadfastly adhere to their beliefs.
this might seem i am taking a jab at creationists, but i'm not.
i'm not really taking a jab at atheists either, but i find this area a highly subjective one
i can honestly see the merits of both sides.
is there a god?
i simply do not know, i cannot state a yes or a no.

 

[whois]

. . . I likewise wish for people of other viewpoints to not assume that just because I value Christian faith, I must therefore be somewhat "soggy" in the brain.

this is what i find so loathsome about atheists.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I wanted to create this thread to clear a few things up.

I self identify as an atheist...and as an anti-theist (henceforth referred to as AT). There's a bad tendency amongst believers to conflate these two. The large majority of atheists on this site are not AT. The large majority of them will claim to respect the religious beliefs of others....a claim which I no longer make. I used to tell people that I respect their religious beliefs, but I realized I was only doing that out of the hope of gaining that same respect for my beliefs back from them. More often than not...I realized that my beliefs weren't respected, so I'm not going to pretend anymore.

That doesn't mean that I cannot engage you in a polite, civil, healthy exchange of ideas...I can certainly do that with religious people. However, I'm not going to concede that any religious beliefs deserve respect. Respect is earned...not handed out to everyone/everything only to be withdrawn in anger. After all, I'm not angry at religious beliefs or people. A more accurate statement would be that I pity the religious. I tend to see them as someone manipulated, someone duped, someone struggling. I hate to drag out an old cliche...but it's akin to someone walking around with a crutch. They've convinced themselves or have been convinced that the crutch helps them in their walk...that they would fall over without it...and that those without one are the ones struggling.

So why do I see things this way? Because truth. Truth is important. Truth can be ugly or beautiful...but it doesn't change according to our whims or based upon our desires/fears. Truth simply is...regardless of whether we accept it...regardless of if we even know it.

When we are faced with a difficult choice, we want truth to guide us. Specifically, we want it to guide us to outcomes that our emotions have made us desire. Truth doesn't do that. Truth guides us to outcomes that may be awful, difficult, or possibly even unbearable. Truth may also guide us to outcomes that we love, are enjoyable, or even beautiful. The point is that truth doesn't care.

Attempting to make difficult choices without truth leads to problems. It may provide a temporary relief...it may even seem to lead to success. Making choices without the truth, or worse in denial of truth, eventually results in conflict. It results in a conflict with reality...and that is a conflict that cannot be won. All you can do once you're faced with reality is accept it....or distort your perception of the truth even further.

Ultimately, that is what religion is to me. A massive distortion of the truth. A desperate attempt to distort reality. The comforts it provides are temporary...it doesn't negotiate one's life past obstacles, it denies they are there.

IMO it helps no one...it only leads to that conflict. It only holds one back. It only holds us all back.

That's why I'm an anti-theist.

I can understand your point of view. I am anti-religious, in that I see all the world religions historical constructs from differing cultures attempting to understand the human form, and the universe it sits within. They are outdated modes of understanding the human form and the world it sits within, and as such I don’t like the rhetoric and the wording I see borrowed from religious texts, its like folks are brainwashed into some mystical/poetic tongue that mostly makes no sense at all, almost speaking a different language. That said the human experience can be somewhat mystical and poetic, but that flavour of expression if you like should be resigned to the realms of creative literature/language and not be used as structured understandings of reality because the mystical and poetic are highly subjective to ones own personal experience, and as a species we have moved onto a framework of psychology and the sciences to objectively understand the human form and the universe with much greater depth than we once could. I have no deity belief as such, but I do believe in investment in certain things to give us a greater sense of connection to other people and universe we live within (even if it’s only for a brief period within a lifetime) and in doing so I embrace theistic outlooks, but find about 90% of those outlooks (from my experience) to be dogmatic narrow minded hand me down theology, and I'm kind of anti those theistic views I suppose. I draw a distinction between religion and theism and life experience and theism in that if a persons life experience has given them a framework to believe in a deity and it isn't peddled forward as a correction measure for all them I'm supportive of their happiness. Respect and all is a good place to be, but then this forum is a loosely structured debate situation, and the personal should get left at the door, in that peoples ideas and beliefs that are up for critique, and not the people as such I think, but people take it personally because often we define ourselves and our identity so heavily on our worldview and the parts that make it up.

 

[asherahSamaria]

that's exactly right.
i do not know there is a god, and i'm willing to explore the possibilities of its existence.
atheist do not believe there is a god, and are unwilling at all to explore the possibilities.
in this regard, atheists and creationists are opposite sides of the same coin.
neither of which have any real evidence, but yet steadfastly adhere to their beliefs.
this might seem i am taking a jab at creationists, but i'm not.
i'm not really taking a jab at atheists either, but i find this area a highly subjective one
i can honestly see the merits of both sides.
is there a god?
i simply do not know, i cannot state a yes or a no.

Are you trolling?

An atheist does not believe there are any gods because there has been no good evidence to support any of the god claims. That is not the same as saying "there are no gods".

The " unwilling at all to explore the possibilities" is incorrect and you are creating a strawman for your own benefit which is dishonest.

Please research the definition of atheist.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

this is what i find so loathsome about atheists.

Hey Whois,

Well, I'm not sure I'd apply the term 'loathsome' to most atheists; they're people too, and I've found they get tired of being berated by Benighted Religious folks. But, like you, I find it also irksome to meet an occasional atheist individual who henpecks me to death with a claim to nothing less than 'clean logic.' It's especially irksome when the said atheist has never touched, let alone read, a formal or informal Logic Textbook, much in the same way that a number of Christians forgo reading (or touching) the Bible.

2PhiloVoid

 

[quatona]

(Blind post)

Hi Ana,
I would like to explain why I am not an anti-theist (hoping this doesn´t derail your thread):

Most importantly: It´s not worth it. Many of these discussions give credit to theism in areas where credit isn´t due.

You speak a lot about "truth" (and I am assuming that you mean something to the effect of "describing and explaining reality as it is delivered to us through our senses"). Theism is about something else (even though they use the word "truth/Truth/TRUTH" a lot). Imo it isn´t (necessarily) in conflict with this reality, because it refers to other fields, e.g. meaning, value, beauty, fulfilment, etc. - just like, say, art, poetry, music and narratives do. That´s where metaphysical
(religious or not) mythologies and narratives reside. This is the playing field where we don´t have to commit ourselves to the hard fact reality - and I value this field greatly.

Of course, here on CF we observe a lot of theists who are unable to keep these two fields apart, and consequently pretend there is a conflict, which needs to be solved ignoring reality as it is presented to us through our senses. But that´s not religion or theism per se - it´s just a few people (in my experience grossly over-represented on CF). Not enough for me to become anti-theist or anti-religious. In real life I am in vivid contact with a lot of theists (including priests and pastors) who have no problems with distinguishing between the fields; persons who would be the first to reduce real world´s sufferings and finding solutions for real world problems - not letting their afterlife-beliefs keep them from it.

Finally, I think crutches are a great invention for people who need them.

I do can see how certain forms of theistic beliefs can "hold us back" - but I fail to see how this can be said about theism in general.

I wanted to create this thread to clear a few things up.

I self identify as an atheist...and as an anti-theist (henceforth referred to as AT). There's a bad tendency amongst believers to conflate these two. The large majority of atheists on this site are not AT. The large majority of them will claim to respect the religious beliefs of others....a claim which I no longer make. I used to tell people that I respect their religious beliefs, but I realized I was only doing that out of the hope of gaining that same respect for my beliefs back from them. More often than not...I realized that my beliefs weren't respected, so I'm not going to pretend anymore.

That doesn't mean that I cannot engage you in a polite, civil, healthy exchange of ideas...I can certainly do that with religious people. However, I'm not going to concede that any religious beliefs deserve respect. Respect is earned...not handed out to everyone/everything only to be withdrawn in anger. After all, I'm not angry at religious beliefs or people. A more accurate statement would be that I pity the religious. I tend to see them as someone manipulated, someone duped, someone struggling. I hate to drag out an old cliche...but it's akin to someone walking around with a crutch. They've convinced themselves or have been convinced that the crutch helps them in their walk...that they would fall over without it...and that those without one are the ones struggling.

So why do I see things this way? Because truth. Truth is important. Truth can be ugly or beautiful...but it doesn't change according to our whims or based upon our desires/fears. Truth simply is...regardless of whether we accept it...regardless of if we even know it.

When we are faced with a difficult choice, we want truth to guide us. Specifically, we want it to guide us to outcomes that our emotions have made us desire. Truth doesn't do that. Truth guides us to outcomes that may be awful, difficult, or possibly even unbearable. Truth may also guide us to outcomes that we love, are enjoyable, or even beautiful. The point is that truth doesn't care.

Attempting to make difficult choices without truth leads to problems. It may provide a temporary relief...it may even seem to lead to success. Making choices without the truth, or worse in denial of truth, eventually results in conflict. It results in a conflict with reality...and that is a conflict that cannot be won. All you can do once you're faced with reality is accept it....or distort your perception of the truth even further.

Ultimately, that is what religion is to me. A massive distortion of the truth. A desperate attempt to distort reality. The comforts it provides are temporary...it doesn't negotiate one's life past obstacles, it denies they are there.

IMO it helps no one...it only leads to that conflict. It only holds one back. It only holds us all back.

That's why I'm an anti-theist.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Do you mean you are "anti-theist?"
That means you are against me and others who are theists.

Or do you mean you are a non-believer in God?
My understanding is that "atheist" means non-theist (don't believe in God) rather then anti-theist(apposed to people who believe in God).

 

[bhsmte]

IMO, it is not so much the religion or theism that is to blame for those theists that use their faith as a weapon to judge others, it has more to do with that person's individual psyche, which then causes them to seek out the religion or denomination, that suits their personal needs.

Some theists, I can have respect for, because their faith actually helps them have hope and to cope with life better. But, when the theists starts to claim; they are morally superior, non believers are being led by satan, non believers had not tried to reach out to God and they simply deny him and or they start to be intellectually dishonest and misrepresent science, or simply deny well evidenced reality to protect their belief, is when it becomes a problem.

All in all, a lot of theists don't engage in any of the above, but it does appear, quite a few on this site do.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hi Ana,

I can appreciate your interest in the general concept of "Truth," (whatever that may actually be), and I can understand your desire to have other people express mutual respect toward you for your own philosophical journey in life. In all likelihood, we all want these things to some extent.

However, just as you wish for religious people to be conceptually straight as to what constitutes your approach to atheism, I likewise wish for people of other viewpoints to not assume that just because I value Christian faith, I must therefore be somewhat "soggy" in the brain. In fact, I slightly resent the condescension I see in terms that might be applied to me, terms such as "manipulated, someone duped, someone struggling." I don't think I fit any of these categories.

So, on the one hand, I empathize with your desire to be respected, but on the other, you might be careful with any kind of over-reliance on a Peter Boghossian style of interaction with all religious people. Not all of us are flakes...

Peace
2PhiloVoid

I wasn't calling out anyone personally Philo....

Just out of curiosity though, how would someone who's been duped know they were duped? I can see how you can reasonably claim not to be manipulated or struggling...but if you've been duped I don't think you'd know it. You'd just think you haven't been duped.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I wasn't calling out anyone personally Philo....

Just out of curiosity though, how would someone who's been duped know they were duped? I can see how you can reasonably claim not to be manipulated or struggling...but if you've been duped I don't think you'd know it. You'd just think you haven't been duped.

On a certain level, Ana, the average person probably wouldn't know that he has been duped, and as you point out, it is the inherent sophistication in the process of being duped that is a main concern.

However, another question remains, one that needs to be asked: in our evaluation of any particular person, are we looking at someone who is merely "average"? Not everyone is just "average," and it is here that we would insert the value of education as a possible antidote to the obfuscations present in the process of being deceived. Wouldn't you agree?

2Philovoid

 

[whois]

Are you trolling?

not at all.

The " unwilling at all to explore the possibilities" is incorrect and you are creating a strawman for your own benefit which is dishonest.

actually there is indeed "evidence" to suggest a god or designer of sorts.
the most obvious is consciousness.
there is nothing at all about physical laws that explains this.
the various aspects of molecular biology, the genetic code is another less obvious piece of evidence.
there is nothing in nature that explains this either.
the fact that base-pair sequences represent a coded scheme for producing proteins is yet another.
the placebo effect is faith based.
all of the above are right off the top of my head.
what do you do as an atheist?
you dismiss every single one of them, that's what.

now, you are no doubt going to accuse me of being a creationist, but nothing could be further from the truth.
i actually find the concept of god absurd, but yet i can see why and how there very well may be that sort of thing.

 

[dms1972]

Is this a debate thread?

If you think it important (a value you cherish) to respect others beliefs then is someone else not doing so reason to abandon that as a value, and disrespect their beliefs?

Can beliefs be subject matter for debates?

 

[TheoNewstoss]

Are you trolling?

An atheist does not believe there are any gods because there has been no good evidence to support any of the god claims. That is not the same as saying "there are no gods".

The " unwilling at all to explore the possibilities" is incorrect and you are creating a strawman for your own benefit which is dishonest.

Please research the definition of atheist.

On naturalism, what evidence could there be for God? Your conceptual framework is the problem. Not only are you unwilling to explore all possibilities, you're unable to.

 

[Ana the Ist]

On a certain level, Ana, the average person probably wouldn't know that he has been duped, and as you point out, it is the inherent sophistication in the process of being duped that is a main concern.

However, another question remains, one that needs to be asked: in our evaluation of any particular person, are we looking at someone who is merely "average"? Not everyone is just "average," and it is here that we would insert the value of education as a possible antidote to the obfuscations present in the process of being deceived. Wouldn't you agree?

2Philovoid

I suppose it would depend on the specific deception. To say intelligence is the sole determining factor in regards to whether or not a person is deceived would be wrong. The best deceptions, the most effective that is, seem to play off emotions that we're all subject to...greed, hope, fear, etc. In those kind of deceptions, I think the ability to recognize the emotion being manipulated and disregard it so it doesn't disrupt cold reason is more important than intellect.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Is this a debate thread?

If you think it important (a value you cherish) to respect others beliefs then is someone else not doing so reason to abandon that as a value, and disrespect their beliefs?

Can beliefs be subject matter for debates?

Did my OP give you the idea that I think it's important to respect beliefs?

 

[dms1972]

Do you mind me asking a question or two here? I glanced at a couple of your earlier posts. If you don't wish to answer no problem. We seem to be subject to a number of things here - one perhaps being how the website is set up.
Another thing is perceptions and a third could be individuals who feel under stress (maybe due to misperceptions).

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you mind me asking a question or two here? I glanced at a couple of your earlier posts. If you don't wish to answer no problem. We seem to be subject to a number of things here - one perhaps being how the website is set up.
Another thing is perceptions and a third could be individuals who feel under stress (maybe due to misperceptions).

Ask away...

 

[Ana the Ist]

(Blind post)

Hi Ana,
I would like to explain why I am not an anti-theist (hoping this doesn´t derail your thread):

Most importantly: It´s not worth it. Many of these discussions give credit to theism in areas where credit isn´t due.

You speak a lot about "truth" (and I am assuming that you mean something to the effect of "describing and explaining reality as it is delivered to us through our senses"). Theism is about something else (even though they use the word "truth/Truth/TRUTH" a lot). Imo it isn´t (necessarily) in conflict with this reality, because it refers to other fields, e.g. meaning, value, beauty, fulfilment, etc. - just like, say, art, poetry, music and narratives do. That´s where metaphysical
(religious or not) mythologies and narratives reside. This is the playing field where we don´t have to commit ourselves to the hard fact reality - and I value this field greatly.

Of course, here on CF we observe a lot of theists who are unable to keep these two fields apart, and consequently pretend there is a conflict, which needs to be solved ignoring reality as it is presented to us through our senses. But that´s not religion or theism per se - it´s just a few people (in my experience grossly over-represented on CF). Not enough for me to become anti-theist or anti-religious. In real life I am in vivid contact with a lot of theists (including priests and pastors) who have no problems with distinguishing between the fields; persons who would be the first to reduce real world´s sufferings and finding solutions for real world problems - not letting their afterlife-beliefs keep them from it.

Finally, I think crutches are a great invention for people who need them.

I do can see how certain forms of theistic beliefs can "hold us back" - but I fail to see how this can be said about theism in general.

I think I get what you're saying quatona...and if I ever saw an instance of religion where it wasn't used towards an end...I might be inclined to agree.

 

[dms1972]

Did my OP give you the idea that I think it's important to respect beliefs?

I thought that was one thing you were saying at the start.

I maybe am not helpful to this discussion?? If so I will leave