Why I'm Anti-Theistic

Eudaimonist · Aug 28, 2015

I tend to view religions (and, yes, secular movements) as mixed-bags of both good and bad elements. It's not easy to create a thoroughly good worldview, community, and way of life. This prevents me from being an outright anti-theist, though on specific issues I may have a profoundly negative view.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Gregory Thompson · Aug 28, 2015

in my metaphysical experiments i noticed that you may have ideals that you think are universal, but the second you upload to the nexus of hearts, you may notice .. whatever sense is common to you .. is not really common to anyone else

Tree of Life · Aug 28, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
In what way is atheism a crutch?

It can be a comforting thought that there is no lawgiver whom we must obey, no avenger we must beware, and no judge to whom we must give account.

Eudaimonist · Aug 28, 2015

Tree of Life said:
It can be a comforting thought that there is no lawgiver whom we must obey, no avenger we must beware, and no judge to whom we must give account.

This doesn't describe atheist perspectives well at all. It is very much a Christian perspective.

eudaimonia,

Mark

dms1972 · Aug 28, 2015

I wanted to create this thread to clear a few things up.

I self identify as an atheist...and as an anti-theist (henceforth referred to as AT). There's a bad tendency amongst believers to conflate these two. The large majority of atheists on this site are not AT. The large majority of them will claim to respect the religious beliefs of others....a claim which I no longer make. I used to tell people that I respect their religious beliefs, but I realized I was only doing that out of the hope of gaining that same respect for my beliefs back from them. More often than not...I realized that my beliefs weren't respected, so I'm not going to pretend anymore.

Good for you. Civility is fine, pretence to agreement without understanding is not so.

There are people here christians among them here who value some of the comments you have made.

Attempting to make difficult choices without truth leads to problems.

Indeed it does.

So why do I see things this way? Because truth. Truth is important.

Yes it is.

But a lot of your post is about religion which actually can be viewed neutrally, and with some understanding as part of the human condition. Fair enough if you want to argue against some forms of philosophical theism, continue to do so. But remember other people are free to believe when having given consideration to the truth of something under discussion, it seems good to them. They don't have to wait for you or others to decide something is true.

I generally don't take a firm position I try to explain my own thinking and intellectual and spiritual journey up to this point, because some here can help - help me to see if I am struggling with a non-issue, or if I have gone wrong.

If you want to read a trenchant critique of bad religion, you'll not find anything surpassing some of the old testament prophets.

The danger in imitation of course should be obvious...

whois · Aug 28, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
So why do I see things this way? Because truth. Truth is important.

yes, truth is indeed important.
so, let's have a little truth shall we?
atheists and creationists are in the same boat, they are opposite equals.
they both believe that which cannot be proved.

along these lines i consider myself an agnostic, and i feel i'm reasonably open minded enough to consider the possibility of a god no matter how ridiculous the concept seems
the prospect of a god may not be as absurd as you may think.
the origin of life on this planet is one reason.
regardless of what you may think, this problem has not been solved, and furthermore it isn't in any danger of being solved any time soon.
the placebo effect is another reason, a faith based condition that has been conclusively proven over and over and over.

are there other reasons?
prayer, or meditation, has bee proven to increase blood flow to the brain.

just a little truth for you.

dms1972 · Aug 28, 2015

GrowingSmaller said:
Their idea that history is directed towards (aimed at) Western scientific culture has been dropped by anthropologists I think.

You may be right, I suspected sometime ago that a more recent theory is its aimed at hollywood box-office receipts.

It would help to know what 'Genesis' is, that is beyond the hollywood reference.

Tree of Life · Aug 28, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
This doesn't describe atheist perspectives well at all. It is very much a Christian perspective.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods (to put it charitably). Gods give laws, avenge wrongdoing, and judge. It can be a comforting thought believing that we don't have to worry about those kinds of things and we can do what we want.

Archaeopteryx · Aug 28, 2015

Tree of Life said:
It can be a comforting thought that there is no lawgiver whom we must obey, no avenger we must beware, and no judge to whom we must give account.

Since when does atheism imply any of this?

Archaeopteryx · Aug 28, 2015

Tree of Life said:
Atheism is the lack of belief in gods (to put it charitably). Gods give laws, avenge wrongdoing, and judge. It can be a comforting thought believing that we don't have to worry about those kinds of things and we can do what we want.

Perhaps you are describing how comforted you would feel?

Tree of Life · Aug 28, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Since when does atheism imply any of this?

Atheists don't imply. They explicitly state that they lack belief in gods. Sure there may be human lawgivers, avengers, judges, etc... But their jurisdiction is severely limited and it's not terribly difficult to obey them or escape their wrath should we disobey. The comforting note is the lack of a cosmic lawgiver, avenger, and judge whom we cannot escape.

paulm50 · Aug 28, 2015

dysert said:
I don't think that all absolute truth can be proven. Take rape, for example. I think it's an absolute that rape is wrong. Yet how do you prove it?

That's one of the worst things I've read here.

Michael Collum said:
Rape is absolutely wrong, yet the culture is very rape conducive, everything and everyone that is used tends to be used the same way, people, the earth, the human heart.
In order to demonstrate that it is wrong one would need to first determine the root cause in society, then change all elements, blatant and figurative to not reflect this abusive pattern.
Only in replacing what is opposed does one express to the fullest extent how wrong it was.

Making women second class to men has a lot to do with it. Which explains why it's more prevalent in less developed countries.

The OT says a woman who doesn't cry out when being raped in a town, should be executed.

Thank you for the links asherahSamaria. If this is a book linked to the truth. I want nothing to do with it.

Michael, there you see the root cause of it. Women can be taken and raped, god said so.

Freodin · Aug 28, 2015

Tree of Life said:
Atheism is the lack of belief in gods (to put it charitably). Gods give laws, avenge wrongdoing, and judge. It can be a comforting thought believing that we don't have to worry about those kinds of things and we can do what we want.

Gods (are claimed to) do a lot of things. Atheists don't believe any of it.

So if Atheists do not believe in Cthulu... who doesn't give laws, doesn't avenge wrongdoing, and doesn't judge... are they just clinging to the comfort that they won't be eaten?

No, ToL, what you present is a very christian concept indeed... and atheists don't accept it as true.

Archaeopteryx · Aug 28, 2015

Tree of Life said:
Atheists don't imply. They explicitly state that they lack belief in gods. Sure there may be human lawgivers, avengers, judges, etc... But their jurisdiction is severely limited and it's not terribly difficult to obey them or escape their wrath should we disobey. The comforting note is the lack of a cosmic lawgiver, avenger, and judge whom we cannot escape.

So you'd be comforted by the lack of a cosmic lawgiver, avenger, and judge?

Tree of Life · Aug 28, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Perhaps you are describing how comforted you would feel?

Perhaps. But let me ask you. Does the thought of a cosmic lawgiver, avenger, and judge whom you did not elect and whom you have no control over comfort you or terrify you?

Archaeopteryx · Aug 28, 2015

Tree of Life said:
Perhaps. But let me ask you. Does the thought of a cosmic lawgiver, avenger, and judge whom you did not elect and whom you have no control over comfort you or terrify you?

It doesn't elicit any emotional reaction, since I don't believe that there is such an entity.

Tree of Life · Aug 28, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
So you'd be comforted by the lack of a cosmic lawgiver, avenger, and judge?

I can recognize a certain comfort in it. It can be a comfortable thought to people like me who are powerful and privileged. Of course, the opposite is true for those in the world who are poor and oppressed.

Archaeopteryx · Aug 28, 2015

Tree of Life said:
I can recognize a certain comfort in it. It can be a comfortable thought to people like me who are powerful and privileged. Of course, the opposite is true for those in the world who are poor and oppressed.

Then you should recognise that you are projecting your own feelings onto those who do not necessarily share them.

Tree of Life · Aug 28, 2015

Archaeopteryx said:
Then you should recognise that you are projecting your own feelings onto those who do not necessarily share them.

I haven't used any necessary language. Note that I've said that it can be a comforting thought. Not that it always is a comforting thought.

Eudaimonist · Aug 28, 2015

Tree of Life said:
Gods give laws, avenge wrongdoing, and judge.

So do governments.

I don't have any statistics handy, but my impression is that most atheists aren't anarchists. If atheists really were so concerned about laws and punishments, I'd expect far more atheist anarchists.

What you write seems far more like some slam against atheists from Christian sources seeking to discredit them.

eudaimonia,

Mark

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