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One might assume that the writers of the bible were motived to create passages that would promote the religion they were creating, rather than to accurately reflect reality.According to the Scriptures it is something that you and I know but we actively suppress.
No Mark. That was the example. "Don't do that".
Ah, okay!
So you actually heard those words? That's interesting. It reminds me of Socrates, who is said to have experienced something similar.
eudaimonia,
Mark
One might assume that the writers of the bible were motived to create passages that would promote the religion they were creating, rather than to accurately reflect reality.
I don't consider reading the glossy brochure issued by the manufacturer of a product as the best means of exploring reality.
I did not hear the words with my ears.
That's not up to me. I am only asking for clarification, not a defence.Don't derail the thread into apologetics.
I noticed you have a habit of doing that.
I meant mentally, like hearing your own internal dialog.
eudaimonia,
Mark
I did not hear the words with my ears.
So your theology says that we are all believers, just some of us lie about it.
We are not all believers in the sense you're getting at here. As James says, even the demons believe (and tremble!). Saving faith is not just a belief that God exists but a personal and relational trust in God. There's a big difference between believing that airplanes exist and trusting that an airplane will safely get you from point A to point B.Putting the accuracy of your mind-reading abilities aside for the moment, if we are all believers, don't we all go to Heaven? Why all of the religious rigmarole?
God's presence is terrible to those who hate him, rebel against him, and are under his condemnation. But by his grace he can transform our hearts and dispositions so that his presence is a wonderful comfort and not a terror.What's so terrible? We get to go to heaven. Ice cream and circuses for everyone!
I'm happy to hear that. Have you considered that telling others how they think, and being wrong about it, may not be the best approach for making your theology appear coherent to those same individuals?
God's presence is terrible to those who hate him, rebel against him, and are under his condemnation. But by his grace he can transform our hearts and dispositions so that his presence is a wonderful comfort and not a terror.
If I am not consciously lying, is it still lying? Or do you now have to believe that I am lying about not lying?In a sense.
In reality, I would be at the "define what you mean by [airplane]" stage.We are not all believers in the sense you're getting at here. As James says, even the demons believe (and tremble!). Saving faith is not just a belief that God exists but a personal and relational trust in God. There's a big difference between believing that airplanes exist and trusting that an airplane will safely get you from point A to point B.
I have no hate towards a character in a book.God's presence is terrible to those who hate him,
"I am not convinced" is not "rebelling".rebel against him,
Whatever for, if all can be forgiven?and are under his condemnation.
Religion as a comfort blanket. I get that part.But by his grace he can transform our hearts and dispositions so that his presence is a wonderful comfort and not a terror.
It makes sense to me; religion as a means of control of a populace, right down to attempts at thought policing. Carrot and the stick, and all that.My only concern is declaring God's word faithfully, clearly, and lovingly. Whether or not it makes sense to you is not within my power.
I think it's a bit more credible if you did hear it "with your ears".
How do you distinguish between the voice of god and your own internal conscious? Have you ever heard them both at the same time?
And yet countless people die not believing in the salvific doctrines of Christianity. So this statement appears to be wrong. In any event, why should it matter? You already conceded that honest nonbelief is forgivable.Before they die, every person will be given enough light to make "honest unbelief" as you call it, impossible.
One way God speaks to me is through/by my conscience.
When we are faced with a difficult choice, we want truth to guide us. Specifically, we want it to guide us to outcomes that our emotions have made us desire. Truth doesn't do that. Truth guides us to outcomes that may be awful, difficult, or possibly even unbearable. Truth may also guide us to outcomes that we love, are enjoyable, or even beautiful. The point is that truth doesn't care.
Attempting to make difficult choices without truth leads to problems. It may provide a temporary relief...it may even seem to lead to success. Making choices without the truth, or worse in denial of truth, eventually results in conflict. It results in a conflict with reality...and that is a conflict that cannot be won. All you can do once you're faced with reality is accept it....or distort your perception of the truth even further.
Ultimately, that is what religion is to me. A massive distortion of the truth.
You are making two statements here - one objective and one subjective.
The objective statement is that "truth doesn't care" about what we think, which certainly is true. Something is true or not true irrespective of what we think.
On the other hand, you make the subjective statement that religion is to you a massive distortion of the truth.
I would ask:
1. Do you believe this about any religion in general or only about specific religions with which you are familiar?
2. How did you personally discern that every religion you are familiar with is a massive distortion of the truth?
(BTW, I happen to agree with almost everything you say, but not with the generalization)
Speaking of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, Paul says that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.It makes sense to me; religion as a means of control of a populace, right down to attempts at thought policing. Carrot and the stick, and all that.
Your theology appears to be fundamentally flawed, in that you have to assume that everyone that disagrees with you is lying about not believing, or you are holding them responsible for things beyond their conscious control (belief).
What I am here to observe is what you do when confronted with this conundrum; do you acknowledge and attempt to resolve the flaw, or do you carry on as if nothing happened?
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