Why ID is logically incoherant.

Inan3 · Jan 15, 2008

Soul Searcher said:
I do not think the theory states that something came from nothing but rather that chemicals came together to become the first living thing.

And where did those chemicals come from?

Inan3 · Jan 15, 2008

Loudmouth said:
Thoughts and love are both abstract human concepts, not real things. Wind is detectable. You can buy a wind detector, it looks like this:

And there are spirit detectors they look like this

and this

Inan3 · Jan 15, 2008

Loudmouth said:
Thoughts and love are both abstract human concepts, not real things. Wind is detectable.

Thoughts, love, sound waves, air, wind, are more than just concepts, just as spirits are. They are very real.

NeverClever · Jan 15, 2008

Inan3 said:
It was by design.

As a neophyte med student and a avid fan of human physiology, I cannot fathom why some people think humans are some grand design.

We kinda suck, really. We eat and breath down the same tube. Male sexual organs double as sewage disposal, genetic disease...

I would think our designer would have done a better job.

Soul Searcher · Jan 15, 2008

Inan3 said:
And where did those chemicals come from?

I find it pointless to ask these types of questions really because no matter how far back you go there is a point where there is no answer.

Such as where did God come from?

The answer to your question is that they probably formed from gases bonding together due to the conditions at the time whatever that was.

The fact is though that no one has all the answers and anyone who says they do are not being honest with you.

eri · Jan 15, 2008

Inan3 said:
And where did those chemicals come from?

After the universe had cooled from the big bang (about 100,000 years after it happened), it cooled enough for matter to begin to form. Simple elements - almost entirely hydrogen (just a proton and electron), trace amounts of helium and a few slightly heavier elements. Clouds of gas left formed, and eventually collapsed under their own gravity into dense, hot cores - the earliest stars. They were much bigger than they are today, and formed heavier elements in their cores through nuclear fusion - helium to iron. Then they exploded in supernova, spreading those elements and heavier ones that formed in the explosion throughout the universe.

And how do we know that? We can measure the metallicty, or metal content, of nearby stars using spectrographs, which break up the light like a prism. Every element has a unique light signature, so we can see which ones are there. As we look further out in the universe, we're looking back in time because the light took so long to reach us. Gamma ray bursts come from stars that exploded only a billion years or so after the universe was formed. Looking at their spectra, we know that the metal content of the universe was much lower then, confirming our hypothesis that most of the compounds in the universe were formed in these stars.

eri · Jan 15, 2008

Inan3 said:
Thoughts, love, sound waves, air, wind, are more than just concepts, just as spirits are. They are very real.

I agree with the first part. Thoughts can be watched (if not read) on MRI machines, looking for brain activity. Love is a chemical process. Sound waves are easy to measure in intro physics labs. Air we can see and feel the results of and measure those. Wind as well.

However, no one has been able to detect a spirit yet. Seeing how we have all of modern technology at our disposal, you'd think someone would have found a way to measure that if it actually existed.

flatworm · Jan 15, 2008

Inan3 said:
Thoughts, love, sound waves, air, wind, are more than just concepts, just as spirits are. They are very real.

Can we set up an expirement to test that claim?

Thoughts and love are internal phenomena (though they have physiological correlates). That is to say, they're all in your head.

Once you concede that spirits and gods are all in your head as well, I suspect we'll have nothing further to disagree over.

Patashu · Jan 15, 2008

Inan3 said:
Thoughts, love, sound waves, air, wind, are more than just concepts, just as spirits are. They are very real.

What is the operative definition of a spirit?
How can a spirit be objectively, verifiably detected?
What are some known properties of spirits? How were these properties isolated and in what studies?

Loudmouth · Jan 16, 2008

Inan3 said:
And there are spirit detectors they look like this

and this

No there aren't.

Loudmouth · Jan 16, 2008

Inan3 said:
Thoughts, love, sound waves, air, wind, are more than just concepts, just as spirits are. They are very real.

Thoughts and love are abstract concepts, words that humans use to describe certain aspects of their brain activity. We have no way of experiencing other people's thoughts so we have no way of knowing if the experiences are even the same.

Sound waves are real and can be measured. Air and wind the same. They can be measured by anyone and all observers come to the same conclusion. They are objectively real, unlike thoughts and love which are subjective.

Naraoia · Jan 16, 2008

Inan3 said:
Oh...thanks. As for most of the content of TV you aren't missing much.

That's why I couldn't be bothered to pay for it

Inan3 · Jan 18, 2008

Loudmouth said:
Thoughts and love are abstract concepts, words that humans use to describe certain aspects of their brain activity. We have no way of experiencing other people's thoughts so we have no way of knowing if the experiences are even the same.

Sound waves are real and can be measured. Air and wind the same. They can be measured by anyone and all observers come to the same conclusion. They are objectively real, unlike thoughts and love which are subjective.

You're a sad man LM.

Inan3 · Jan 18, 2008

Loudmouth said:
No there aren't.

yes there are

Maxwell511 · Jan 18, 2008

Loudmouth said:
Sound waves are real and can be measured. Air and wind the same. They can be measured by anyone and all observers come to the same conclusion. They are objectively real, unlike thoughts and love which are subjective.

I disagree. Sound is an abstract concept and so are sound waves. Love and thoughts are also abstract concepts that are based on real events. Both are concepts and both as real as each other.

My thoughts are objectively real in the sense that you can measure the firings of my neurons. Do you experience them in the same manner as I do? No. Would you experience the same sound waves in the same manner I do? No.

We come to the same conclusions when we speak on common abstract terms.

Inan3 · Jan 18, 2008

Patashu said:
What is the operative definition of a spirit?
How can a spirit be objectively, verifiably detected?
What are some known properties of spirits? How were these properties isolated and in what studies?

Although, I am sure that someone has done studies on this I don't know the results.

A spirit is a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting. It is how we know things. It is the real you within your body. It is what gives the body life and animation. Without your spirit you die.

It is also, described as breath, wind, air.

Spirits can at times be felt physically and seen physically and heard physically. You can also, see the results of their movements even if you cannot see them.

Inan3 · Jan 18, 2008

PeterMaclellan said:
I guess it would be too much to hope that you will actually elaborate on how my logic is faulty. Are you even capable of putting together an argument? Simply stating I'm wrong is a meaningless assertion unless you can explain yourself.

Oh no I'm not capable of putting together an arguement. How silly of you to ask.

Maxwell511 · Jan 18, 2008

Inan3 said:
It is how we know things. It is the real you within your body. It is what gives the body life and animation. Without your spirit you die.

So the spirit is more or less our brain?

Inan3 · Jan 18, 2008

flatworm said:
Can we set up an expirement to test that claim?

Thoughts and love are internal phenomena (though they have physiological correlates). That is to say, they're all in your head.

Once you concede that spirits and gods are all in your head as well, I suspect we'll have nothing further to disagree over.

Sad, sad, sad.

Inan3 · Jan 18, 2008

Maxwell511 said:
So the spirit is more or less our brain?

No, our brain is just a piece of meat. A very intricate piece of meat but none the less just flesh. When the spirit leaves, the brain is still there, but it no longer can think, can it? Still just a piece of meat. You've heard the term meathead, haven't you?

Seriously, when your spirit leaves the body, you still can think, you are still you, you just no longer have a vehicle to get around here on the earth. The Bible does promise a new body/vehicle to accomodate your spirit at a future time. The promise to those who believe, though.

Why ID is logically incoherant.

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