Why ID is logically incoherant.

[Inan3]

Sounds like you are saying that if you believe it then you will fill in the gaps later, or that belief is what makes it real. Either way seems faulty.

No, I am saying that you must be born again in the spirit to "see" or "perceive" the Kingdom of God. You believe first and then you see. You give first and then you receive. You sow and then reap. These are all laws of God.

 

[Inan3]

Been there, done that... got the emotional scars.

Then you've never been there and done what I've been talking about.

 

[Inan3]

Knowledge requires truth and justification. I don't believe you have either.

That's just it You Don't Believe. You are making that choice. I know I have all three ... knowledge ... truth ... and justification ... because I believe I do.

 

[Inan3]

Tell God not to worry. If it's good workmanship it can withstand a few simple primates poking and prodding it a bit.

Why don't YOU tell Him, TMT? He's waiting for you to talk with Him.

 

[Loudmouth]

You believe first and then you see.

That's how most cults work.

 

[keith99]

God's design is not intended to be predicted or tested. It is intended to be believed.

Yea right. So we are not to keep records to know when to plant crops. We should not understand disease so that we might live through the more serious ones and suffer less with the minor ones. We don;t need to understand energy processes so we can have engines that work or air conditioning.

Oh and most of all we shouldn't try to understand electronics, the internet would have happened anyway as long as we all believed hard enough.

 

[flatworm]

I know I have all three ... knowledge ... truth ... and justification ... because I believe I do.

So does every suicide bomber and pedophile cult leader.

But I suppose you're different. You're not like the billions of people who hold contradictory beliefs in the same way you hold yours. You're special.

Sure you are.

 

[Soul Searcher]

No, I am saying that you must be born again in the spirit to "see" or "perceive" the Kingdom of God. You believe first and then you see. You give first and then you receive. You sow and then reap. These are all laws of God.

Ah the "born again" a term often used but seldom understood.

However one must first see, understand, believe, repent and act before one can be said to be born again. Most who claim born again are only using a catch phrase and come across as thinking they are better than those who do not share thier beliefs.

The bible indicates that those who are truly born again will not sin yet every single one I have ever met making this claim do in fact continue to sin just as much as they did before and most add the additional sins of judging and looking down on thier neighbor who may believe differently. If the examples I have saw are what it means to be born again then I will be happy to stay as I am, and I think God would want it that way.

 

[Inan3]

Ah the "born again" a term often used but seldom understood.

This might surprise you but I agree with you on this. Even many of those who ARE born again do not understand what it means.

However one must first see, understand, believe, repent and act before one can be said to be born again. Most who claim born again are only using a catch phrase and come across as thinking they are better than those who do not share thier beliefs.

One only has to believe and receive Jesus Christ to be born again.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

The bible indicates that those who are truly born again will not sin yet every single one I have ever met making this claim do in fact continue to sin just as much as they did before and most add the additional sins of judging and looking down on thier neighbor who may believe differently. If the examples I have saw are what it means to be born again then I will be happy to stay as I am, and I think God would want it that way.

I do not know who you have met but I have met thousands whose lives have been changed drastically and they most definetly do NOT continue in the sins of their past. This is not to say that those born again do not sin. The scripture you are referring to is in 1st John.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

One needs an understanding of the whole man to understand the meaning of this scripture. The scripture must be searched to find all the truth. It is apparent that John is addressing believers/born-again christians in this letter. (Although, the Bible is set up with chapters and verses for ease of study, the origianl was just a letter) The 1st and 2nd chapters address the issue of and the fact that christians do sin.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

If the verse that you were referring to did mean what you were saying than John would have no reason to include the above verses. The explantion is in the fact that man is a 3 part being...spirit, soul and body.

Without getting into a very lengthy explantion. Suffice it to say that the part of man that is born-again is his spirit. (See John 3:6) This part does not sin because it is born of God and His seed remains in him. The scriptures also, speak of the saving of the soul which is done by receiving the Word of God. (See James 1:21) The final part of mans salvation is the redemption of the body. The born-again person will receive a new body. One that will not die nor be corruptible.

The body we now have has been corrupted with sin and death and is also the seat of sin. It is with the body and the soul that man sins. As I showed in the scriptures above, as long as we live in this body we will sin but Jesus is our Advocate and the propitiation for our sins. In other words He's got us covered for now until the final redemption of our bodies.

 

[Inan3]

So does every suicide bomber and pedophile cult leader.

But I suppose you're different. You're not like the billions of people who hold contradictory beliefs in the same way you hold yours. You're special.

Sure you are.

Are you like the suicide bomber or the pedophile cult leader?

 

[Soul Searcher]

I do not know who you have met but I have met thousands whose lives have been changed drastically and they most definetly do NOT continue in the sins of their past. This is not to say that those born again do not sin.

Oh yes they change for sure. Some of the most noticable changes are.
1: They refrain from using cuss words.
2: They go to church
3: They tend to be much more judgmental of anyone who does not believe as they do.
4: They suddenly think they know the truth and often refuse to listen to reason.
5: They seem intent on removing the splinter from the eye of thier brother while ignoring thier own logs.

These are the most noticable changes along with the proud pronouncements of them being saved as if they are now somehow better than thier brother who has a different belief.

 

[flatworm]

Are you like the suicide bomber or the pedophile cult leader?

No. I don't claim knowledge or justification through faith.

You do.

 

[Inan3]

Oh yes they change for sure. Some of the most noticable changes are.
1: They refrain from using cuss words.
2: They go to church
3: They tend to be much more judgmental of anyone who does not believe as they do.
4: They suddenly think they know the truth and often refuse to listen to reason.
5: They seem intent on removing the splinter from the eye of thier brother while ignoring thier own logs.

These are the most noticable changes along with the proud pronouncements of them being saved as if they are now somehow better than thier brother who has a different belief.

Well you are right in that sometimes we have tried to remove the splinter from the eye of another when we should have worked on the log in our own eyes but that is not because we think we are better. We have just found a good thing and want the same for you. I have met a few who think they are better than others and I would be quick to tell them they are not BUT as far as us finding a better way (by no merit of our own) we have. That may seem arrogant or prejudiced but it is a fact. God has provided for ALL people a better way. Just because some people don't see it that way doesn't mean it isn't so. And how about those who won't listen to what we think is reason. As far as our being saved and thinking we are better than someone who has a different belief...while there may be some christians who think that way (they didn't get it from the Bible)... the fact is we BELIEVE there is ONE true God and we BELIEVE that JESUS is the WAY, they only way. We BELIEVE that if one believes in Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to the ONE true God, they are saved. So you can see there is no place for compromise. Christians are not better because of their good deeds, Christians are better off because of HIS good deeds. Sometimes Christians get it wrong, but God never does. Don't hang your hopes on man who will fail you but put your trust in God Who will not.

 

[Inan3]

No. I don't claim knowledge or justification through faith.

You do.

So how do you claim knowledge and justification?

 

[flatworm]

So how do you claim knowledge and justification?

I claim knowledge by submitting claims to the test of evidence and reason.

I justify actions by their consequences, whether negative or positive, for real people in the real world.

So why don't you answer the fundamental question: how is your justification and knowledge any better than a suicide bomber's?

 

[flatworm]

That may seem arrogant or prejudiced but it is a fact.

No, it is an arrogant religious prejudice. It is no more a fact than the islamist mandate to kill kuffars.

God has provided for ALL people a better way. Just because some people don't see it that way doesn't mean it isn't so.

The fact you can't provide any better justification for your claim than the leaders of the Heaven's Gate cult provided for their claim of a UFO in Hale Bopp's tail is strong evidence that indeed it is not so.

And how about those who won't listen to what we think is reason.

I am singularly unimpressed with what you think is reason.

the fact is we BELIEVE there is ONE true God and we BELIEVE that JESUS is the WAY, they only way. We BELIEVE that if one believes in Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to the ONE true God, they are saved. So you can see there is no place for compromise. Christians are not better because of their good deeds, Christians are better off because of HIS good deeds. Sometimes Christians get it wrong, but God never does. Don't hang your hopes on man who will fail you but put your trust in God Who will not.

This imaginary God had thousands of years to improve the human condition. What did we get? Ignorance, the enslavement of women, rampant disease, early death, grinding scarcity, and chronic war.

Every improvement brought about in human living standards in history has been brought about by human beings. All the knowledge that makes your little internet soapbox possible comes from human beings. I don't recall a primer in Web Design in the Acts of the Apostles.

If God has never failed us it's only because he never existed in the first place.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Well you are right in that sometimes we have tried to remove the splinter from the eye of another when we should have worked on the log in our own eyes but that is not because we think we are better. We have just found a good thing and want the same for you. I have met a few who think they are better than others and I would be quick to tell them they are not BUT as far as us finding a better way (by no merit of our own) we have. That may seem arrogant or prejudiced but it is a fact. God has provided for ALL people a better way. Just because some people don't see it that way doesn't mean it isn't so. And how about those who won't listen to what we think is reason. As far as our being saved and thinking we are better than someone who has a different belief...while there may be some christians who think that way (they didn't get it from the Bible)... the fact is we BELIEVE there is ONE true God and we BELIEVE that JESUS is the WAY, they only way. We BELIEVE that if one believes in Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to the ONE true God, they are saved. So you can see there is no place for compromise. Christians are not better because of their good deeds, Christians are better off because of HIS good deeds. Sometimes Christians get it wrong, but God never does. Don't hang your hopes on man who will fail you but put your trust in God Who will not.

Well this is pretty far off topic so I will not address this post in detail but I will point out that those who say they "are saved" do not even know what it means and those who say Jesus is the way for the most part do not know what it means. It is not about magic words. It is not about believing a certian thing about Jesus and as long as people believe that it is the way will be hidden from them.

 

[Inan3]

Well this is pretty far off topic so I will not address this post in detail but I will point out that those who say they "are saved" do not even know what it means

Sometimes but not always.

and those who say Jesus is the way for the most part do not know what it means.

Sometimes but not always

It is not about magic words. It is not about believing a certian thing about Jesus and as long as people believe that it is the way will be hidden from them.

Not "magic" words but "spirit" words. Words that produce life.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.


The Word is vital and until people believe THAT, the Way will be hidden from them.

All of creation is based upon words.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The Bible is called the WORD of God. It is the words/Word that all of our faith is built upon. Without words nothing would exist. When all else fails the Word will still be standing.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

We are born again by the Word.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

God is a Word being. Jesus was the WORD made flesh.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Man was made in His image and likeness and that is why man can speak words. He made us so that we could take dominion by our words. We are "saved" by our words.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Salvation comes when we put the word of God in our hearts and speak it out with our mouths.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Sometimes but not always.

Perhaps I should have said that either they do not know what it means or else they are just being dishonest.

Sometimes but not always

most of the time.

Not "magic" words but "spirit" words. Words that produce life.

In other words.. magic words. But it is not the words my dear and those who believe it is are yet to see the light.

The Word is vital and until people believe THAT, the Way will be hidden from them.

All of creation is based upon words.

I think you miss the point.

The Bible is called the WORD of God.

Yes it is by some and falsely so.