Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[Valletta]

Also, doing a search on witchcraft and Christmas trees shows that the tree is a part of their dark craft, and it has a tradition that predates the the invention of Christmas. But my main contention with it is Jeremiah 10 because just having an idol is wrong. Meaning, you would not put up a Roman Catholic statue of Mary in your house. We are told not to make any idols just as we are not to bow down to them. But in the ME-centered Christians of our day, some of them think it is okay to have an idol as long as you don’t worship it. But if one were to read the command on idols when Moses received His commands from the Lord, we are told not to even make a graven image (i.e., an idol).

The word "idol" does not mean the same as "statue." Statues of Mary are not idols, nor are the Seraphim God commanded be carved on the Ark of the Covenant. Nor are statues such as those of George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. As to Moses, God commanded Moses to make a likeness of a serpent. STUDY THE BIBLE:

Numbers 21 8-9 And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.[a] Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The word "idol" does not mean the same as "statue." Statues of Mary are not idols, nor are the Seraphim God commanded be carved on the Ark of the Covenant. Nor are statues such as those of George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. As to Moses, God commanded Moses to make a likeness of a serpent. STUDY THE BIBLE:

Numbers 21 8-9 And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.[a] Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. the commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

Not true.

In Exodus 32: Most Christians who know the golden calf story know that the calf is clearly a molten statue. If you were to turn to Acts 7, you would learn that this was called an idol.

40 "Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.​

41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands." (Acts 7:40-41).​

So obviously you need to study the Bible more on the topic of idolatry.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Idolatry has been accepted and claims made that it is acceptable for thousands of years though. Accepted not by God of course, but by most nations and peoples, including the USA today.

I agree.

 

[Der Alte]

In Exodus 20, believers at that time were told not to even make a graven image, which is an idol.

You are deliberately quoting this verse out-of-context trying vainly to make it say what you want it to

Exodus 20:4-5​

(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:​

(5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,[the graven image vs. 4] nor serve them:[the graven image vs. 4] for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;​

If you still can't see and comprehend vs. 5 I can make text size larger. Have you ever seen anyone bowing down and serving a Christmas tree?

If you were to study the topic, there are times when God just destroys the idols. So it is not just punishing the person for idolatry, but it is also wrong to have the idol, too.

A Christmas tree is NOT a graven image and is not and never was an idol!

It’s not about worship. Its about having an idol in your home that God condemns. Again, if you know your Bible on the topic of idolatry, you would understand this.

Where does God say that decorated trees are idols?
Emending this. I just noticed something important in the Biblical definition of an idol.
Ex 20:4 An idol must be a graven image which is "the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." A decorated tree, no matter what it is called, is NOT graven and as far as I know it is not in the likeness of anything in heaven, on the earth or the waters under the earth.
Maybe you can help me out and show me where this is wrong? Tick tock!

 

[Der Alte]

Also, doing a search on witchcraft and Christmas trees shows that the tree is a part of their dark craft, and it has a tradition that predates the the invention of Christmas. But my main contention with it is Jeremiah 10 because just having an idol is wrong. Meaning, you would not put up a Roman Catholic statue of Mary in your house. We are told not to make any idols just as we are not to bow down to them. But in the ME-centered Christians of our day, some of them think it is okay to have an idol as long as you don’t worship it. But if one were to read the command on idols when Moses received His commands from the Lord, we are told not to even make a graven image (i.e., an idol).

Produce your credible, verifiable evidence? I took a quick look at the linked nonsense article above. I did not see anything resembling credible, verifiable, historical evidence, just some anonymous person spewing their unsupported opinion.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, yes, they can. Just like on one day of the week beef is no longer beef - it is fish, when they want to eat beef but aren't allowed to for some reason ......

Is this supposed to make any kind of sense?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, it doesn't.
Jeremiah told the Israelites not to follow the ways of the other nations, who made idols out of wood, adorned them with silver and gold and had to secure them with nails in case they tottered. He said they shouldn't fear the idols of other nations; they could not walk nor speak.
(As a matter of fact, people did nail God down on a piece of wood centuries later. And, metaphorically speaking, some have been trying to do that ever since.)

But that is very far from saying to us, "Do not go to Sainsbury's, buy an artificial tree and then put homemade decorations on it".

Just because I did not mention that they were to follow the way of the nations does not mean I disagree with that fact or point. That is one aspect of it. Yes. But another aspect if you were paying attention is that it says not to cut a tree and decorate it. Why because these things were idols and were falsely worshiped. AGAIN, if you look at the Bible on the topic of idolatry, you will understand that just having idols is forbidden by God. To make an idol is to have one. God considers the cutting of a tree and decorating it as an idol. Many like to use real trees during Christmas time. But I believe it would extend to plastic trees, as well. Why? Because the idea is about decorating a tree. That's the basic concept or idea there, which makes it an idol. Well, that is if you believe Jeremiah 10.

Question: Would you ever give up Christmas to follow Jesus if you discovered the truth on it?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I just pointed that out to you as per my previous quotation:
"2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, (of) silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history."

Well, I just showed that you were incorrect with the Bible on that point. But I know you cannot currently see it. The topic of idolatry is a difficult topic for Catholics to truly see.

Catholics believe ALL OF THE BIBLE is the WORD OF GOD.

They have reinterpretations of His Word in my opinion. Call no man your father. Flee from idolatry. Necromancy is condemned etcetera.

God was NOT commanding His children to sin when He ordered them to make an image of Seraphim or create the Ark or make the image of a serpent in order to cure His people.

First, God told them to do this. Second, the angels were not facing out towards people. They faced an empty mercy seat. Many statues or idols condemned in the Bible are not like the ark.

God does not command His people to sin! When you have a picture of your relatives, maybe your parents or children, you have not committed a sin. All of art is not a sin! A cross is not a sin. You need to learn the difference between an image and a GRAVEN image. Jesus did not sin because he chose to be on the cross. Nor do you sin when you look at a cross.

Looking at a cross is one thing, but regarding it to have power is another. There is no power in a symbol or graven image. The power is in the gospel and the power is in Jesus Christ and His redemptive work and the change that He can make upon the heart.

 

[Der Alte]

Idolatry has been accepted and claims made that it is acceptable for thousands of years though. Accepted not by God of course, but by most nations and peoples, including the USA today.

Empty accusations. If you have credible, verifiable, historical, evidence produce it. If you have none confine yourself to things you can prove.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nonsense! Can you provide any credible, verifiable evidence for this ridiculous claim. I don't mean copy/paste from some random website. If not remember you saying something about lying in a previous post?

I don't look to modern-day scribes as having any kind of weight when it comes to spiritual understanding.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't look to modern-day scribes as having any kind of weight when it comes to spiritual understanding.

So the only thing you can do you can do is post your unsupported opinion and criticize and demean anyone who does not believe exactly what you do? Excuse me while I get off this biased merry go round.

 

[Der Alte]

Just because I did not mention that they were to follow the way of the nations does not mean I disagree with that fact or point. That is one aspect of it. Yes. But another aspect if you were paying attention is that it says not to cut a tree and decorate it. Why because these things were idols and were falsely worshiped. AGAIN, if you look at the Bible on the topic of idolatry, you will understand that just having idols is forbidden by God. To make an idol is to have one. God considers the cutting of a tree and decorating it as an idol. Many like to use real trees during Christmas time. But I believe it would extend to plastic trees, as well. Why? Because the idea is about decorating a tree. That's the basic concept or idea there, which makes it an idol. Well, that is if you believe Jeremiah 10.
Question: Would you ever give up Christmas to follow Jesus if you discovered the truth on it?

God does NOT consider "the cutting of a tree and decorating it as an idol." Here is what God considers and idol.

Exodus 20:3-5​

(3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.​

(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:​

(5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;​

A decorated tree no matter what it is called is NOT an idol. A decorated tree is NOT a "graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" And nobody bows down and serves them. Jeremiah does NOT invalidate Exodus.

 

[prodromos]

Witches use Christmas trees as a part of their pagan worship.

Citation please.

 

[Der Alte]

Citation please.

I have asked for any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for witches using Christmas trees as part of pagan worship more than once. There is none.

 

[Der Alte]

Just because I did not mention that they were to follow the way of the nations does not mean I disagree with that fact or point. That is one aspect of it. Yes. But another aspect if you were paying attention is that it says not to cut a tree and decorate it. Why because these things were idols and were falsely worshiped. AGAIN, if you look at the Bible on the topic of idolatry, you will understand that just having idols is forbidden by God. To make an idol is to have one. God considers the cutting of a tree and decorating it as an idol. Many like to use real trees during Christmas time. But I believe it would extend to plastic trees, as well. Why? Because the idea is about decorating a tree. That's the basic concept or idea there, which makes it an idol. Well, that is if you believe Jeremiah 10.
Question: Would you ever give up Christmas to follow Jesus if you discovered the truth on it?

False information. Jeremiah does not invalidate exodus 20.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It appears jhere that the Bible has far less to do with your assertions than do your own doctrinal presuppositions. You assume, a priori, that a great many ill-founded and/or downright false notions as to the "the pagan origin of Christmas", the " pagan origion of Easter", nd the presumed "pagan origin" of any celebration of the coming of God Incarnate. Upon even cursory investigation these charges all turn out to be the worst kind of nonsense, generally coming fromthe same sources that atheists and other unbelievers use to "debunk" Christianity.

There are a lot of assertions being made here but there is no substance or proof to back them up.

The short form is that you resuse any feast or holy day dedicated to the worship and adoration of our Risen Lord. Does that not seem to be even the least bit strange to you? It certainly does to most Christians.

Isaiah 8:20 says,
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

I have, and He did. Go thou and do likewise.

But we both cannot be right. I have a more sure Word of prophecy.
I believe that is the real difference between us, my friend.

The Christian faith the "man made system"in your belief apparently being the Christian Faith.

Right, I am not expecting you to get it because you are currently Anglican. My challenge to you is to get deeper into the Word of God on your own with God and truly test to see if your church is doing things according to the Bible.

I am for any worship that is clearly backed up by Scripture.

As long as it's based pre-Christian sources, right?

Cryptic questions don't really deserve an answer.
You have to explain that a little better if you desire an actual response.

After a fashion, I'm sure. A sip and a nibble to taken as a reminder,notour Lord's Body and Blood as He Himself said. The Pharisees, masters of Scripture as they were knew that He couldn't really have meant that.

While it is important to partake of the Lord's supper, it is more important to love others according to God's Word, especially one's enemies and brethren. This would be spreading the gospel, preaching the Word, helping the poor, helping your fellow believers, and praying for others. Remember when Jesus talked about the weightier matters of the Law?

As long as it comes from the Old Covenant, right?

Technically the 613 laws of Moses are no longer applicable (Even though certain moral laws have been repeated in the New Covenant like, Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etcetera). We do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, OT judicial laws, animal sacrifices, etcetera.

By not embracing the neo-Judaizing position supported by references to largely ficitiious "pagan" origins of Christian worship.

I said, "...man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY Word of God"; And yet this response is not really sufficient to what I said with Scripture here. Please try again.

There we very much disagree.

You are saying this in response to when I said, "I understand."
But the thing is that you cannot disagree with my understanding because I used to think there was no problem with Christmas when I was a Christian. I had to mature and grow in God's word to discover it was unbiblical. But most just simply don't care what God's Word says and they want their extra-biblical pleasures.

But be careful not to worship Him at times and places that offend neo-Pharisees.

Your response above here is in reply to when I said, "But we are to love not the world and neither things in the world. We are to pick up our cross and deny ourselves and follow Jesus."

My reply is based on Scripture. So your response is not a sufficient reply to address the Scripture I brought up. Please try again.

Be good enough to rephrase that.

This was said in context of my referring to the false Christmas Jesus.

This is what I said:

" Not the Jesus invented lie that says he was born on December 25th when that is not the case."
Quote by Bible Highlighter.

Irrelevant to anything. In the West we celebrate His coming on 25 December. In the Eastern tradition they celebrate His coming on 7 January. In your tradition you're forbidden to celebrate His coming at all.

My tradition is the Bible. I have a more sure word of prophecy than you if you do not stand upon that book alone.

I'm of the opinion that most Jews, then as now, were Caucasian.

Actually, that's not the case. We see cave drawings of ancient Jews and they were darker-skinned or mid-toned in skin color. They definitely were not as white as rabbits. Think. How on Earth do you think Jesus and the disciples could recognize Gentiles? Obviously, it is because they looked different, right? Please take no offense, but this is why you need to read the Bible more instead of playing around with outside man-made traditions, my friend.

But again, that's altogether irrelevant. We don't worship Him for being white, or Jewish, or Black, or Asian, or anything else than being God Incarnate, the Creator of the Universe. If you don't believe that, thnen we have no basis for discussion at all.

If you were to check my statement of faith as a link via my profile, I believe in the Bible's teaching on the Trinity (Godhead). I believe that the Lord our God is one God (in number), and yet He also exists as three distinct persons (i.e., the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost). I believe Jesus always existed as the second person of the Trinity from eternity's past. God (or the Trinity) is a spirit being. Modalism and Tritheism are two wrong extremes on this issue.

Anyways, Jesus, who is the second person of the Trinity became incarnate (i.e., took on human flesh and blood) by way of a virgin named Mary in order to be a Provisional Atonement for mankind's sins. So the gospel could then be preached in that Christ died for our sins, He was buried and risen on the third day for our salvation. In other words, if we believe in the gospel, we can be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1 -4). This then can lead a person to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation (Romans 10:9) (Romans 10:13).

I get the impression that the Gospels take secondplace to the OT in your religion, but if you'd sneak a look you might find people celebrating the coming of our Savior - just before He was crucified. After His resurrection, His followers were a litle busy trying to stay a step ahead of the Romans, and the Jews, who wanted them dead or in prison. The celebrations came later.

I disagree with Christians who believe they are to follow the Laws of Moses.
So I am against Seventh Day Adventists who desire to go back to the Old Law.
Anyway, what you said here reminds me a little of a Christian film I really liked a lot. Even despite our disagreement, we may at least find common ground in liking a particular Christian film. It is called, "Polycarp."

Trailer:

Full movie available for free (officially) via ChristianMovies Channel:

Why bother to include the Old Testament of the Bible if you exclude the New, which which all of the OT is simply prelude?

1 Timothy 1:8
"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"

We're not celebrating the day, we're celebrating His Resurrection from the dead.

Yes, that is what I meant. But I believe He was risen on Saturday and the woman discovered that Jesus was risen on the next day on Sunday. But yes. Sunday is a celebration of His resurrection. I agree.

It's not about days and rules and laws and traditions, it's about Him, God Himself.

Uh, Jesus said,

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

In fact, the Son and the Father can make their home in us if we keep His commands.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

1 John 2:3-4
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He was here, in Person. He Who spoke the universe into being. That is why we celebrate. Not because a Law or tradition says we mush, but because God Himself has come! Forbid us to celebrate His coming and the rocks themselves will cry out!

The Lord's supper is a celebration until He comes.
We are also to LIVE by Every Word of God.
That is also a feast, as well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Citation please.

A simple internet search brings up lots of results. So I do not need to create an in-depth write-up on it with endnote citations. Besides, I am already busy doing a rather super lengthy Christian write-up with endnotes.

May God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, yes, they can. Just like on one day of the week beef is no longer beef - it is fish, when they want to eat beef but aren't allowed to for some reason ......

Yeah, I never understood why they think fish is not meat.

 

[Valletta]

Well, I just showed that you were incorrect with the Bible on that point. But I know you cannot currently see it. The topic of idolatry is a difficult topic for Catholics to truly see. hey have reinterpretations of His Word in my opinion. Call no man your father. Flee from idolatry. Necromancy is condemned etcetera.
First, God told them to do this. Second, the angels were not facing out towards people. They faced an empty mercy seat. Many statues or idols condemned in the Bible are not like the ark. Looking at a cross is one thing, but regarding it to have power is another. There is no power in a symbol or graven image. The power is in the gospel and the power is in Jesus Christ and His redemptive work and the change that He can make upon the heart.

You showed be nothing of the kind, you provided a verse which substantiated what I said. Yes, God told them to make the images. God does not tell people to sin, He wants to save us. And please do not make assumptions about, by what by some counts are over a billion Catholics, can or cannot see. Catholics do not think a cross has power nor that statues have power, I don't know who told you such drivel. You are apparently saying that statues (at least of angels) are OK if they are not facing toward the people. Where do you get that teaching from? Do you realize that the people were to look at the serpent God commanded to be made in order for them to be safe from the poison? Your teaching seems to be contradictory.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You showed be nothing of the kind, you provided a verse which substantiated what I said.

Again. Exodus 32 talks about a golden calf statute. Acts 7:41 refers to how this golden calf is an idol. But you said that a statue is not an idol. I just shown that it was according to Scripture.

Yes, God told them to make the images.

God told the Israelites to make the Ark with two angels facing the mercy seat.
Traditionally in idol statue worship, there is some animal or man facing outward to look at the person.
At another time, God told Moses to create a serpent on a pole.
This was created as a symbol of healing pointing ahead to the cross.
But there is no information in the text that the serpent was facing those Israelites who looked upon it.
I believe it was not like other idol statues that face their idol statue worshipers. Granted, they turned this into a idol later, but the point here was that I believe it was not like your traditional idol statues back in those days and even today, whereby the face of the statue is looking back at its worshipers. But even if this is not the case, God commanded to take life, and yet He also commanded not to murder. There is no instruction in the Bible that says you can create a statue of Mary, and statues of the Roman Catholic saints. So thus, it is an extra biblical practice that we do not see. We certainly should not bow down to such statues, either. Yet, in other countries, I have seen Catholics bowing down to a statue of Mary. This is idolatry. Nowhere is a person allowed to do this.

The cross is NOT A GRAVEN IMAGE!

I never said it was.

And please do not make assumptions about, by what by some counts are over a billion Catholics, can or cannot see.

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. A billion does not sound like a Few to me.

Catholics do not think a cross has power nor that statues have power, I don't know who told you such drivel.

Then you don’t need them to pray. In fact, you shouldn’t even be praying to dead saints. That’s necromancy, which is clearly condemned in the Bible.

You are apparently saying that statues (at least of angels) are OK if they are not facing toward the people. Where do you get that teaching from?

Obviously God’s statues are going to be different than the pagan ones because He is holy and separate from that which is evil.
If you read the Bible for any length of time, you can tell the true and holy things of God vs. the counterfeit things (Unless one starts to prefer the counterfeit evil stuff).

Do you realize that the people were to look at the serpent God commanded to be made in order for them to be safe from the poison? Your teaching seems to be contradictory.

Not at all. There is no indication that the serpent head faced its onlookers. Naturally a serpent on a pole would be busy going up the pole and not busy trying to look out. Nothing is said that the serpent head faced its onlookers. This I believe is the difference. Pagan statues look out to their worshipers. Again, God does things differently than that which of darkness. If you say otherwise than you are saying we cannot tell the difference between the good things vs. the evil things. In other words, God’s statues or images would clearly be different and distinct from the pagan idol statues that men worship.