Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

[Strong in Him]

They don’t care that their star (sun) decoration on top of their Christ-mass tree is a parallel. They don’t care that the lights on their idol tree are like little glowing stars or suns.

That's because it's not, and it's nonsense.
A tree is not an idol, unless you pray to, or bow down and worship it.
You have been told this - you clearly don't care.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's because it's not, and it's nonsense.
A tree is not an idol, unless you pray to, or bow down and worship it.
You have been told this - you clearly don't care.

No true. You are the one who is incorrect. Just read again Exodus 20 on the graven image, which is an idol. The first part of the instruction is not to even make the idol. Then it says to not to bow down to it. It is a two part instruction. So if you have a giant 10 foot tall statue of Mary in your living room, you are violating the command in regards to idolatry.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A deception is not always a lie?
But when people dress up in a costume to pretend to be father Christmas, that is different?

The lie would be, "no, there really IS a father Christmas who flies through the air with a sleigh load of presents, being pulled by his flying reindeer, stopping at every single house, going down all their chimneys, eating all the mince pies, drinking ALL the sherry that is left out for him, leaving presents for the whole household and managing to get around the whole country in one night. I am just helping him out a little."

Did you look at the biblical examples before you hit the reply button?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's what JWs say: Herod and Pharaoh, who were bad people, did bad things on their birthdays - therefore it is wrong for anyone, anywhere to remember the day on which they were born. Which is completely illogical.

So by NOT celebrating a birthday of Christmas you are emulating a Christian cult.

Well, I did not get any reference from the JW site. I later referenced the Encyclopedia and the Britannica.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's because it's not, and it's nonsense.
A tree is not an idol, unless you pray to, or bow down and worship it.
You have been told this - you clearly don't care.

Genesis 35:2-4
2 “Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:
3And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.
4And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which were in their hand, and all their earrings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the oak which was by Shechem.”

Notice verse 4. It says they gave their strange gods that were in their hand to Jacob. This is obviously mini idol statues or figurines. Also, see Joshua 24:23. Putting away their strange gods (idols) was about choosing to serve the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not everyone does that - some put a fairy on top.

I would think no one thinks of them as little suns except you, who is trying to make a connection to the sun god.
(News Flash; the IS no sun god.)
Lights on a Christmas tree may be blue, green, red, orange, multicoloured - how many suns have you seen like that?


Some people don't even know that on December 25th we remember the birth of the Son of God - they are not going to know, or care, about the "birth" of some mythical Roman god.

a) Some do.
b) A tree is only an idol if you worship it.


People of other religions gave sacrifices to idols - yes. They still do.
So?

No one is.

Pagan gods, like those mentioned in the OT, did not "demand" nice little gifts, wrapped up in paper - but the sacrifices of live human babies and children. Pagan gods "demanded" people show love through sex - which is why there were many temple prostitutes.
No one imitates them. The Israelites did; not any more.


It makes no sense that you think that we, your fellow Christians, worship trees, adopt pagan influences and, when we try to explain and correct you, dismiss the arguments with "well you will have to answer to God."

We don't "see" what you're saying, because it's nonsense.

I did not say they worship trees. They have idol trees. There is a difference. Also, while there are other ornaments that one can put on top of the tree, the most popular is the star. Then you have lights and then you have other ornaments that many times are ball shaped. Again, this is like the sun. Parallels do not have to be exact in order for it to be a parallel. So you have the star on top, the lights that look like shining stars, and ball ornaments (which is the most popular) all which relate in some way to the sun. Then you put gifts below the idol tree, which is what we read about involving those who were into idolatry. They present gifts or sacrifices to their idols. So one is mimicking what idolaters did in the past even though they are not worshiping the tree or the sun like objects on their tree. I believe it is a violation of the fist part of the command not to have idols as given to us in Exodus 20, Genesis 35, and Joshua 24.

 

[Strong in Him]

No true. You are the one who is incorrect. Just read again Exodus 20 on the graven image, which is an idol.

A fir tree which is cut down is not a graven image.
Not. a. graven. image. I don't how much more clearly I can say that.
It is not carved, or shaped, with a chisel.
IF someone buys a real tree, which they intend to decorate for Christmas, they almost always buy it from someone, take it home a stick it in a pot. They don't fashion it or carve it in any way.

The first part of the instruction is not to even make the idol.

No Christian does.
You have just got it into your head that a Christmas tree is an idol, and nothing will get that idea out of your head - not even Scripture.

Then it says to not to bow down to it.

I don't know about you but I don't bow down to my tree - which is plastic, in any case.

So if you have a giant 10 foot tall statue of Mary in your living room, you are violating the command in regards to idolatry.

I don't.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well, I did not get any reference from the JW site. I later referenced the Encyclopedia and the Britannica.

No, I am just saying that one of the JWs teachings is "don't honour birthdays because Pharaoh and Herod did, and they were evil."
And, "don't celebrate Christmas because we don't on which day Jesus was born."
Maybe some people also taught that years ago; I'm just saying, JWs do too. And I have read testimonies from people who were denied these celebrations as children. They almost all left the JW cult and some were put off church and religion for life.

Compare that attitude with a Christian who might say, "we don't know the exact day that Jesus was born, but we believe that Almighty God became human; born into our world to be with us and beside us. And this is the day that has been set aside on which to celebrate that miraculous event. Would you like to come to our Christmas carol service to find out more?"

Which do you think might be more encouraging, welcoming and enable another person to find Christ?

 

[Strong in Him]

Notice verse 4. It says they gave their strange gods that were in their hand to Jacob. This is obviously mini idol statues or figurines. Also, see Joshua 24:23. Putting away their strange gods (idols) was about choosing to serve the Lord.

So an 8 foot Christmas tree is a mini idol or figurine, is it?
How many people do you know who can hold one in their hands?

 

[Strong in Him]

I did not say they worship trees. They have idol trees. There is a difference.

No, an idol is an object of worship - something which takes the worship which is due to God.
Worship = worth - ship.
If someone spends all their time and money following pop stars, buy their music and memorabilia, following them round the world, dressing, and even having plastic surgery, to look like them - that pop star has become an idol.
If someone spends all their time studying horoscopes, astrology, mind reading, going to a psychic to learn the future; and they refuse to do anything until they have consulted the stars to find out if they should - horoscopes have become their idol.
The pop star, the horoscopes etc are given prominence, they come first. The person's life is devoted to what their pop idol, or horoscope, thinks or says they should do. Whether they realise it or not, they had made an idol and are worshipping it - giving it time, money etc because they are worth it.

Also, while there are other ornaments that one can put on top of the tree, the most popular is the star.

Doesn't mean anything.

Then you have lights and then you have other ornaments that many times are ball shaped. Again, this is like the sun.

Doesn't mean anything.
Man made lights, which can be different colours, come with flex and may break are nothing like the sun.

Then you put gifts below the idol tree, which is what we read about involving those who were into idolatry.

Nope.

They present gifts or sacrifices to their idols.

Not unless the gift is a ton of manure which is given TO the tree.
Christmas gifts are gifts to loved one, given with, and from, love.

So one is mimicking what idolaters did in the past even though they are not worshiping the tree or the sun like objects on their tree.

Nope.

I believe it is a violation of the fist part of the command not to have idols as given to us in Exodus 20, Genesis 35, and Joshua 24.

You can believe, and practice, what you like.
You cannot tell other Christians to "stop doing that immediately" and tell them that they will have to answer to God for putting up a decorative item.
God may ask us lots of things when we meet him one day. "Did you worship your Christmas tree?" will not be one of them; "did you honour my Son?" may well be.

 

[Der Alte]

I did not say they worship trees. They have idol trees. There is a difference. Also, while there are other ornaments that one can put on top of the tree, the most popular is the star. Then you have lights and then you have other ornaments that many times are ball shaped. Again, this is like the sun. Parallels do not have to be exact in order for it to be a parallel. So you have the star on top, the lights that look like shining stars, and ball ornaments (which is the most popular) all which relate in some way to the sun. Then you put gifts below the idol tree, which is what we read about involving those who were into idolatry. They present gifts or sacrifices to their idols. So one is mimicking what idolaters did in the past even though they are not worshiping the tree or the sun like objects on their tree. I believe it is a violation of the fist part of the command not to have idols as given to us in Exodus 20, Genesis 35, and Joshua 24.

Show me one, just one, Biblical reference which shows any culture anywhere which worshipped a decorated tree? The Jeremiah reference is one continuous narrative why are you deliberately omitting the second part of the command?
In Jeremiah not only is the tree cut down and has silver and gold placed on it but ALSO Silver and gold is beaten into plates and placed on it, also purple and blue clothing is placed on it.

Jeremiah 10:3-5
(3) For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
(4) They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
(5) They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Jeremiah 10:9
(9) Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.​

Trees don't wear clothing. Statues do. There is a parallel passage in Isaiah.

Isaiah 40:18-19
(18) To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
(19) The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Apart from any of the other nonsense on this thread, Jeremiah 10:3 says "a craftsman shapes it with a chisel".

Hands up anyone here who buys a real Christmas tree and then takes it to a craftsman to be shaped?
If the OP can't show that anyone does that, then this verse from Jeremiah does not apply.

The King James Bible says differently.
It says:

Jeremiah 10:3 KJV
“For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.”

 

[prodromos]

Scripture does not record the angels or the wisemen continuing to worship Jesus as a baby when He was an adult on December 25th. There are no Christ-mass instructions given to us by either Jesus or the apostle Paul. You would think if it was important, there would be Scripture telling us about how we should cut down a tree and decorate it with silver and gold (Which sounds like Jeremiah 10), and to give each other gifts around this idol tree, and to have a Yule log, etcetera.

Complete non response to what I posted.

People see what they want to see.

You are prime evidence of that.

I am sure if I even showed a screen cap of the actual encyclopedia if I ever get a copy, it would not convince you.

Not true, but when you claim something about a source you need to show it from the source. It may be true that the quote did come from an earlier edition but it is outdated scholarship in any case. I've found the Catholic Encyclopedia to be a good source of information about the Catholic Church, but not particularly reliable on other topics.

No, I did not get it from that source.

I didn't say you did. Anything that comes from there is immediately suspect, which should at least make you question the reliability of the sources you chose.

But here is another source that says it differently.

Encyclopedia.com states:

“…while the traditional date of Christmas, first attested in the fourth century, is hardly unrelated to the fact that December 25 was celebrated as the birthday of Sol Invictus Mithra."

Source:

Sol Invictus | Encyclopedia.com

SOL INVICTUS SOL INVICTUS . Worship of the sun god, Sol, was known in republican Rome, but it was of minor importance. In imperial Rome, however, in the third century ce (the last century of pagan Rome), the cult of the sun god became a major and, at times, dominant force in Roman religion...

www.encyclopedia.com

All their sources are secondary. There are no primary sources tying December 25 to the 'birthday' of Mithras

This is date of celebration of the worship, Sōl Invictus on December 25th can be seen here by Oxford.

"Its dedication day was 25 December."

Sōl Invictus

"Sōl Invictus" published on by null.

www.oxfordreference.com

I've already pointed out that this was the day Emperor Aurelias dedicated the Temple of Sol Invictus in the year 274. There was no annual worship done on that day. You can find many buildings with a plaque commemorating the date in which a building cornerstone was laid or a bridge was opened but nobody gathers every year on that day to commemorate the inauguration of that building or bridge. The Oxford article is remiss in leaving off the year it was dedicated.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Show me one, just one, Biblical reference which shows any culture anywhere which worshipped a decorated tree? The Jeremiah reference is one continuous narrative why are you deliberately omitting the second part of the command?
In Jeremiah not only is the tree cut down and has silver and gold placed on it but ALSO Silver and gold is beaten into plates and placed on it, also purple and blue clothing is placed on it.

Jeremiah 10:3-5​

(3) For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.​

(4) They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.​

(5) They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.​

Jeremiah 10:9​

(9) Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.​

Trees don't wear clothing. Statues do. There is a parallel passage in Isaiah.

Isaiah 40:18-19​

(18) To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?​

(19) The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.​

Trees could be made into idols. But it says not to even cut a tree and decorate it, speaking of tree worship even during that time period. Deuteronomy 16:21 talks about not planting a tree near the alter of God. Then it talks about idol images in verse 22 (Deuteronomy 16:22).

I also the really large Christmas trees that have burlap garland sort of looks like clothing, like a dress being strung around the tree.

 

[JSRG]

December 25th is not the date of the Winter solstice and there are no historical references to devotees of Mithras celebrating on December 25th prior to Christians celebrating the birth of Christ.

You didn't go into much detail on this and I wanted to offer that detail, specifically the "there are no historical references to devotees of Mithras celebrating on December 25th prior to Christians celebrating the birth of Christ."

So, the claim some advance is that the date of Christmas came from Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Birthday of the Unconquered Sun), which fell on December 25. But there is an issue with this argument, which is that we lack proof that there was any Dies Natalis Solis Invicti on December 25 prior to Christmas being celebrated on that date. Yes, I know people point to Aurelian dedicating a temple to the sun on December 25 of 274, but that's a dedication of a temple, not a declaration of a feast or establishment of a holiday. It is rather difficult for Christians to take the date from Dies Natalis Solis Invicti if Dies Natalis Solis Invicti didn't exist beforehand!

The first mention of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti being celebrated on December 25, as far as I am aware, is from a document called the Chronography of 354, written in... well, 354. In its calendar it mentions for December 25, ""N·INVICTI·CM·XXX" (apparent reference to Dies Natalis Solis Invicti). This is our first attestation of it. Thus the earliest year we know of it occurring on December 25 is the year 354.

However, we know Christmas was being celebrated at this time, because in another part of the Chronography of 354 ("ITEM DEPOSITIO MARTIRVM"), when listing commemoration dates, it tells us that on VIII kal. Ian. (8th kalends of January, which is December 25; the Romans had a weird way of stating dates back then) there was "natus Christus in Betleem Iudeae" meaning the birth of Christ in Bethlehem Judea. This is, I believe, the first clear mention of there being a Christmas celebration being on December 25. This means that our first mention of Christmas does not post-date our first mention of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti; it is possible it predates it, in fact, as the "ITEM DEPOSITIO MARTIRVM" is often considered to have been from 336 AD due to the dates of the martyrs mentioned and subsequently put into the Chronography, though this is admittedly speculative as there is no explicit statement of such in it. At any rate, it is obvious that the mention of Christmas is no later than 354.

Now, of course, just because a holiday is first mentioned in a particular document doesn't mean it wasn't being done before; we are missing an awful lot of documents from the past, after all, so sometimes even major events first show up in the history books decades or even centuries after the fact. So it is indeed likely that Dies Natalis Solis Invicti was celebrated prior to 354. However, the same applies to Christmas. Thus we ultimately do not know which came first, and if Dies Natalis Solis Invicti didn't come first, then obviously Christmas couldn't have had its date chosen as a result of it. Even if we must conclude that the date of one influenced the other (which may not have been the case), it is hardly unthinkable that in the context of growing popularity of Christianity, pagans may have wanted to make their own rival holiday on the same date as Christmas.

 

[prodromos]

No. You’re not reading it. Look, they worshiped a sun god on December 25th. That is what it is saying.

No, you are reading into it what you want to see. A temple was dedicated on one day, which happened to be December 25, 274AD. There was no annual worship on that day.

 

[Der Alte]

Trees could be made into idols. But it says not to even cut a tree and decorate it, speaking of tree worship even during that time period. Deuteronomy 16:21 talks about not planting a tree near the alter of God. Then it talks about idol images in verse 22 (Deuteronomy 16:22).
I also the really large Christmas trees that have burlap garland sort of looks like clothing, like a dress being strung around the tree.

Total nonsense. A burlap ribbon looks nothing like blue and purple clothing. You persist in ignoring the bottom half of your quote. Desperately trying to make it say what you want it to. Sheets of silver and gold and blue and purple clothing. You are real good at ignoring scripture which destroys your narrative. You can't have one without the other. It is totally dishonest to repeatedly quote Jeremiah 10:3-4 and omit vs. 9. Decorated trees don't wear clothing. And you continue to ignore God's commandment in Exod 20

Exodus 20:3-5​

(3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.​

(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:​

(5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;​

A false god is the graven image or likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: to which people bow down to and serve.

 

[prodromos]

Trees could be made into idols.

Which is what Jeremiah 10 is referring to.

But it says not to even cut a tree and decorate it, speaking of tree worship even during that time period.

Nope, it describes carving an idol, cladding it in gold and silver, then putting robes on it. It most definitely does not describe "tree worship"

Deuteronomy 16:21 talks about not planting a tree near the alter of God. Then it talks about idol images in verse 22 (Deuteronomy 16:22).

No one is planting a tree near the altar of God, but perhaps you understand this as a general prohibition of planting trees in general, given your belief that if people see a tree with a bit of tinsel on it they immediately bow down and worship it.

I also the really large Christmas trees that have burlap garland sort of looks like clothing, like a dress being strung around the tree.

The more you continue arguing, the more unhinged your argument becomes. Yeah, it "sort of looks like clothing", if you are wearing a blindfold and have a vivid imagination.

 

[prodromos]

The King James Bible says differently.
It says:

Jeremiah 10:3 KJV
“For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.”

I never expected you to draw attention to one of the deficiencies of the KJV.

 

[Strong in Him]

The King James Bible says differently.
It says:

Jeremiah 10:3 KJV
“For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.”

That still doesn't make a tree an idol. Thousands of us have artificial trees, that weren't cut down from the forest with an axe.

The act of cutting down a tree means nothing.
I have asked you before and got no answer, (surprise, surprise); when God commanded Noah to build an ark and Solomon to build the temple, where do you think they got the wood from? Every item in Solomon's temple was even covered with gold. Were they, the things that God had told him to make, idols?