Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

YorkieGal · Nov 1, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
Maybe you went too far with it. In my upbringing it was just a make believe game. Something I just naturally grew out of like pretending I was Batman, or a spy or a cop.

Santa brings you presents at Christmas if you're good and coal if you're naughty.

That's how far it went............

I don't think I'm to blame because we teach our kids not to lie and then I made an exception and was surprised when it upset a kid.

No strong feelings one way or the other about it, but I'm not taking responsibility, in the way you stated, for the natural reaction of a child that happened to be mine.

What I do think this demonstrates is that some kids will react like no big deal and some will think it's a big deal.

Some feel betrayed because the parents they didn't think would lie to them...lied to them!

Some kids could think parents are hypocrites, no big deal, move on. Some kids already knew and didn't care and enjoyed the game for what it was.

Who's to say how it will end up?

ozso · Nov 1, 2023

One thing I like about Christmas is the songs about Christ that get played everywhere. When I lived in Las Vegas the Bellagio fountain show on the Strip would have Handel's Messiah playing with a loud choir singing "King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and He shall reign forever and ever!".

prodromos · Nov 1, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
One thing I like about Christmas is the songs about Christ that get played everywhere. When I lived in Las Vegas the Bellagio fountain show on the Strip would have Handel's Messiah playing with a loud choir singing "King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and He shall reign forever and ever!".

Of course there is the flipside to that, having to listen to Mariah Carey ad infinitum whenever you go shopping.

prodromos · Nov 1, 2023

YorkieGal said:
Santa brings you presents at Christmas if you're good and coal if you're naughty.

That's how far it went............

Maybe you didn't go far enough. Most kids are able to put two and two together when you add the flying reindeer and a big, fat dude who can squeeze down narrow chimney stacks.

YorkieGal · Nov 1, 2023

prodromos said:
Maybe you didn't go far enough. Most kids are able to put two and two together when you add the flying reindeer and a big, fat dude who can squeeze down narrow chimney stacks.

Maybe my kid was super smart or super dumb - either way, I don't take credit. There were a lot of chemicals in foods I didn't know about etc.

ozso · Nov 1, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Because we are living in the last days.
You will not find many preaching the actual truth of God’s Word as it is.
Most churches are content to just make their members happy, and not to rock the boat.

Anyways, much of what I am saying is from the Bible itself.
So if you have a problem with what I am saying, you are taking issue with the Bible.

No brother it's just what you yourself come up with.

ozso · Nov 1, 2023

prodromos said:
Maybe you didn't go far enough. Most kids are able to put two and two together when you add the flying reindeer and a big, fat dude who can squeeze down narrow chimney stacks.

We didn't have a chimney, so that one didn't fly from the start. I remember when I was little and at some event for kids that had a Santa, and I was analyzing whether or not his fake beard was real, and if he had pillow stuffed in his costume to make him look fat. Basically quasi belief mixed with skepticism.

ozso · Nov 1, 2023

prodromos said:
Of course there is the flipside to that, having to listen to Mariah Carey ad infinitum whenever you go shopping.

Alas.

ozso · Nov 1, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Truly this is the narrow way that Jesus spoke about.

In your presentation the narrow way is like a tightrope made out of a banana peel.

JSRG · Nov 1, 2023

Der Alte said:
Oh we accept the scripture you or anyone else shares but we reserve the right to correct any out-of-the-ordinary twist which anyone places on them. For example, you refuse to acknowledge that God, Himself, said what constitutes an idol in Ex 20 and claim that somehow a centuries later decoration which is NEVER worshipped is an idol although it is not graven and it is not bowed down to or served as stated in Ex 20. Jeremiah does NOT invalidate Ex 20.

Jeremiah 10:3-5

(3) For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

(4) They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

(5) They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
You quote vs. 5 as if it alone is one of the 10 commandments and ignore the following vss. Do you know of anyone who has ever had a Christmas tree expected it to speak and move? Pagan deities were said to speak and move etc. vs. 4. Strike 1.
Do you know of anyone who has ever had a Christmas tree who were afraid of it? Pagans were afraid of their deities. vs. 5 Strike 2.
Do you know of anyone who had a Christmas tree expected it do good or evil to them? Pagans thought their deities could do good and evil. vs. 5. Strike 3.
Just in case you forgot God, Himself said what constituted an idol.

Exodus 20:3-5

(3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

(5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
A Christmas tree is NOT graven. A Christmas tree is NOT the "likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." People who have Christmas trees do NOT bow down themselves to them, nor serve them.
Jeremiah 10 does NOT invalidate Exodus 20.

prodromos said:
I could care less about what witches claim today. Where are your historical sources which show witches using trees in their practices prior to Christians decorating trees.

Jeremiah talks about carving idols, not decorating trees.
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an axe by the hands of an artisan;
people deck it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.

Again, you give no historical references.

You think you do

You have given no evidence, just your biased opinion and misinterpretation of Scripture.

Jeremiah 10 is about carving idols out of wood, not decorating trees.

a tree from the forest is cut down, and worked with an axe by the hands of an artisan;
people deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.
Once the artisan has finished working on it, there is nothing resembling a tree anymore. That is when they cover it with silver and gold and have their finished idol. Not a decorated tree.

We celebrate every aspect of the life of Christ throughout the year, His conception, His birth, His presentation at the Temple, His baptism, His miracle at the wedding in Cana, His healing of the man born blind, etc. through to His trial, His crucifixion and burial, to His glorious resurrection and ascension. Every day of the calendar year has been sanctified by the Church through the remembrance of the life of Christ and His glorious Saints. You've totally missed the point of why the Church has established these feast days.

There are some good points in these posts, and while the debate on whether Jeremiah refers to Christmas trees appears to have dissipated since in this topic, I want to add something to it, a point that doesn't seem to have been mentioned in this topic so far (and, admittedly, doesn't seem to be brought up nearly as much as it should).

As far as I am aware, no one prior to the 20th century ever argued that Jeremiah 10 referred to Christmas trees (this post makes a mention of the apparent recency of this claim). I'm willing to accept correction on this point if someone can point to a work that did, but I have spent some time searching for pre-20th century works that make the claim, and I haven't found any, even in the works that try to make claims that Christmas trees are somehow pagan. Were the people who were explicitly trying to reject the usage of Christmas trees somehow unaware of Jeremiah 10?

The earliest claims I have been able to find positing a connection between Christmas trees and Jeremiah 10 come from the 20th century and seems to have been popularized by Herbert Armstrong, a decidedly heterodeox preacher (e.g. he was a Binitarian, asserting that only the Father and Son are God, along with some other odd claims like how the British were descendants of the Israelites) who founded the Worldwide Church of God, which is why the claim is particularly common among "Armstrongism" groups.

Granted, a biblical interpretation only arising in 20th century isn't inherently wrong. But it makes it extremely suspect, particularly considering the fact that it's not as if it came about from some new information (Jeremiah 10 wasn't somehow unknown prior to the 20th century) and the additional issues with the interpretation that are already outlined.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2023

JSRG said:
The etymology of Santa has nothing to do with Satan; it's an English version of the Dutch word Sinterklaas, which itself comes from Saint Nicholas.

I do not rule it out as a coincidence.

Consider the parallels.

1. The word Santa is a true anagram for the word Satan.
2. Santa and Satan have been depicted in red clothing.
3. The Santa tries to be like the Most High God like Satan does. Santa embodies the same characteristics as the one true God; Santa is said to be omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and everlasting. In other words, he knows if you have been naughty or nice.
4. Santa is a god of materialism, and so is Satan (See: Matthew 4:3-4, and Matthew 4:8-9).
5. Children pray to Santa in the same way people pray to other pagan gods (Satan), or to the One True God.
7. Santa does not exist and can do nothing. Therefore, if we tell a child he does exist, we are lying to that child (Which is what Satan wants).
8. Propelling the Santa myth violates Biblical principles such as not lying and not offending children (Which again is what Satan wants).
9. Santa’s elves (helpers) have pointy ears like depictions of demons.

JSRG said:
The fact you can rearrange the letters of Santa to get the word Satan means no more than the fact you can rearrange the letters of God to end up with dog.

God (JESUS) took on flesh and died in the place for Gentiles dogs.
Today, many do not put stock in anagrams, but in the past these things were taken seriously.

JSRG said:
While I would not go so far as to equate the action of telling kids that Santa Claus is real to be similar to that of the trickery of the Serpent, I do agree that parents should not be telling their children that Santa Claus is real.

St. Nicholas has indeed been seen in times past as a sort of god. There have been many stories passed down about the so-called miracles he performed. Some of these stories are relayed in a book titled The Story of Santa Klaus written by William Shepard Walsh in 1909. One such story, reported there, takes place at a time when the inhabitants of St. Nicholas' diocese, or district, were enduring a very severe famine. Meat was hard to come by, and the people were on the verge of starvation. The villain of the story was a wicked inn keeper who, in secret, kidnapped and killed children. He then used the bodies of the children as the main ingredient in a variety of tasty dishes he prepared and served to his unsuspecting guests. St. Nicholas supposedly visited this inn, and he immediately knew what was being done upon seeing the dish which was served to him. St. Nicholas then went out back and found a tub filled with the bodies of dead children which had been salted in order to preserve their flesh for later consumption. The saint simply made the sign of the cross above the bodies of the children, and they were miraculously restored to life (Walsh 25-29).

You can see a pic of a baby bowing down to St. Nicholas being like a god here.
Note: I agree with certain aspects of the article, but that does not mean I agree with everything the Christian author of this website says and believes. For example, I definitely do not agree with the author’s promotion that we Christians have to keep the Saturday Sabbath. Christians are not under the Old Covenant system. We are to follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers in the New Testament.

Side Note:

You have a pic of St. Nicholas being worshiped by a baby, and yet today you a few children on the planet who pray to this non-existent or mythological character or they write letters to him, usually to get a specific gift (Pleasure in material things).

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
In your presentation the narrow way is like a tightrope made out of a banana peel.

And how does this insult prove you are correct?

prodromos · Nov 1, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Today, many do not put stock in anagrams, but in the past these things were taken seriously.

Your name is an anagram of High Bile Blighter. Perhaps you are right and we should take anagrams seriously.

YorkieGal · Nov 1, 2023

I appreciate where you have come from with this thread, OP. I appreciate the time and effort you put into clarifying your position via scripture, also.

It has made me question things about myself and that's always a good thing so we don't get arrogant/complacent in our ways and ignore those of Gods.

You may have an uphill battle to convince everyone of your intent, though, since this particular holiday comes under fire from atheists as a way to take away our Christianity and Christian traditions.

I see that this is not your purpose but maybe it helps explain why some are very wary + Christians have taken this holiday as their own so however it was celebrated long ago is not how it is being celebrated by many. Certainly, not with unholy intent.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
No brother it's just what you yourself come up with.

Not at all. I did not write Jeremiah 10:2-6, 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 1 John 2:15-17.

Strong in Him · Nov 1, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
I do not rule it out as a coincidence.

You're probably about the only one who doesn't.

Bible Highlighter said:
Consider the parallels.

1. The word Santa is a true anagram for the word Satan.

Means nothing at all.
The word Santa is Spanish (Italian?) for saint - as you have been told.
A saint is very far away from Satan - and rearranging letters of the word doesn't change that.

Bible Highlighter said:
2. Santa and Satan have been depicted in red clothing.

Satan is not a real person but a fallen spirit. He does not wear clothing at all - sorry to burst your bubble.
You might as well sat the cartoons of the devil show him holding a pitchfork. So anyone else who holds a pitchfork - farmers, gardeners - are the devil.
St Nicholas wore a red Bishop's cassock - and not all the time, either.

Bible Highlighter said:
3. The Santa tries to be like the Most High God like Satan does.

Rubbish.
There is no "THE Santa". I'm sorry to disillusion you, but people dress up to play father Christmas. He/she can be found in any department store/school/church hall/pub at the same time as all other Santas. And guess what they do when their shift is over? Take their costumes off, go home and carry on their lives.

Bible Highlighter said:
Santa embodies the same characteristics as the one true God; Santa is said to be omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and everlasting. In other words, he knows if you have been naughty or nice.

Sorry, but are you trying to be funny or are you just determined to make your theory fit?

People dress up as father Christmas. Many of them, all over the country, if not world.
It was only a while ago that you were saying that there is no Santa and he is a lie - now you're claiming that he is some omnipotent, omniscient, divine being. You can't have it both ways.
"Santa" most certainly does not know everything. Unless it is your friend, or dad, who is playing Santa; then they might know more about you than about anyone else.

Bible Highlighter said:
4. Santa is a god of materialism, and so is Satan (See: Matthew 4:3-4, and Matthew 4:8-9).

Nope.

Bible Highlighter said:
5. Children pray to Santa

They don't.
Some of them write him letters - which the Post Office "send" to him.

Bible Highlighter said:
7. Santa does not exist and can do nothing.

There you are then, you've contradicted yourself.
This "omnipotent, omniscient being" who knows "if you've been naughty or nice", can do nothing..
Santa does not exist, Satan most certainly does; you've just destroyed your own argument.

Bible Highlighter said:
9. Santa’s elves

Who don't exist either.

Bible Highlighter said:
have pointy ears like depictions of demons.

Which aren't real either since demons are spirits.

Bible Highlighter said:
You can see a pic of a baby bowing down to St. Nicholas being like a god here.

Of course, because babies possess theological knowledge and know exactly what they are doing.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2023

YorkieGal said:
I appreciate where you have come from with this thread, OP. I appreciate the time and effort you put into clarifying your position via scripture, also.

It has made me question things about myself and that's always a good thing so we don't get arrogant/complacent in our ways and ignore those of Gods.

May the Lord Jesus Christ get all the glory.

YorkieGal said:
You may have an uphill battle to convince everyone of your intent, though, since this particular holiday comes under fire from atheists as a way to take away our Christianity and Christian traditions.

Well, atheists have no actual spiritual discernment. They attack anything that even remotely resembles Christianity. They attack the over zealous Trump supporters who claim to be Christians. Granted, I would like to see Trump back, but that does not mean I am going to join any of his rallies, and neither do I see him as some kind of savior of this country or anything (as some Christians do). I am also not denying that Christ cannot be preached at a time when people may be more receptive to Jesus Christ (Even if it may be done imperfectly). As Paul says, "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." (Philippians 1:18). In other words, I believe a person can flip on the TV and be saved by an offer to accept Jesus as their Savior by a Joel Olsteen type believer. But that does not mean they would continue to join such a church. The time of giving during the holiday season could help them to see Jesus as the greatest gift of all. But the point here is truth. Do we see the practices of Christmas in Scripture as a holiday? No. My goal in life is to follow what the Bible says and not what the world loves. People of this world love Christmas, even many atheists or agnostics. Yes, you will get your die hard atheists who desire to erase every semblance of God from every place on the planet if they had the chance. But my motivation is that of Christ. My desire is to live as Christ whereby to die would be gain. My motivation is to let Christ shine through my life and to glorify what His Word says and not the traditions or holidays or ways of this world, which will pass away or fade away like burning leaves.

YorkieGal said:
I see that this is not your purpose but maybe it helps explain why some are very wary + Christians have taken this holiday as their own so however it was celebrated long ago is not how it is being celebrated by many. Certainly, not with unholy intent.

A few years back, I tried to celebrate Christmas without the pagan tree, but in time, God convinced me to put it away all together because of roots and the fruits of this holiday as a whole are not biblical. The very practices are not rooted in the Bible. Giving is not done in the biblical way. Jesus condemned giving only to those who love you vs. giving to those who cannot repay you (Whereby your treasure or reward would be in Heaven instead). People beating each other up and or trampling over each other to get gifts for the holidays is proof that the spirit at work is not God but another spirit (i.e., the spirit of the world).

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2023

Strong in Him said:
You're probably about the only one who doesn't.

Means nothing at all.
The word Santa is Spanish (Italian?) for saint - as you have been told.
A saint is very far away from Satan - and rearranging letters of the word doesn't change that.

Satan is not a real person but a fallen spirit. He does not wear clothing at all - sorry to burst your bubble.
You might as well sat the cartoons of the devil show him holding a pitchfork. So anyone else who holds a pitchfork - farmers, gardeners - are the devil.
St Nicholas wore a red Bishop's cassock - and not all the time, either.

Rubbish.
There is no "THE Santa". I'm sorry to disillusion you, but people dress up to play father Christmas. He/she can be found in any department store/school/church hall/pub at the same time as all other Santas. And guess what they do when their shift is over? Take their costumes off, go home and carry on their lives.

Sorry, but are you trying to be funny or are you just determined to make your theory fit?

People dress up as father Christmas. Many of them, all over the country, if not world.
It was only a while ago that you were saying that there is no Santa and he is a lie - now you're claiming that he is some omnipotent, omniscient, divine being. You can't have it both ways.
"Santa" most certainly does not know everything. Unless it is your friend, or dad, who is playing Santa; then they might know more about you than about anyone else.

Nope.

They don't.
Some of them write him letters - which the Post Office "send" to him.

There you are then, you've contradicted yourself.
This "omnipotent, omniscient being" who knows "if you've been naughty or nice", can do nothing..
Santa does not exist, Satan most certainly does; you've just destroyed your own argument.

Who don't exist either.

Which aren't real either since demons are spirits.

Of course, because babies possess theological knowledge and know exactly what they are doing.

It was not really written for you. I am not interested in really convincing somebody to see something when they have a blindfold on. That’s not my job to force you to see something you don’t want to see. You have to decide to make that choice to see one day, and God will be the One who will show it to you if you are open to taking that blindfold off. Until then, there is no real point to have any current discourse between each other on this matter. No matter what I say, it will not be heard but merely attacked.

prodromos · Nov 1, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Not at all. I did not write Jeremiah 10:2-6, 2 Timothy 3:1-9, 1 John 2:15-17.

You only misinterpret them.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 1, 2023

prodromos said:
You only misinterpret them.

So how is that statement even remotely going to convince me?
The short answer is that it doesn’t.
You have to actually get into the verses and make your case on a Scriptural level.
Granted, I am not really expecting a biblical response, but I do like to be proven wrong in such a case.

Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

Glory to God

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Glory to God

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Great is thy faithfulness

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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