Why I have such trouble believing in Christianity

[DeanM]

Maybe it's like some relationships where your significant other professes love to you, but has a laundry list of changes you need to make.

Maybe it's like the "man hug" -- y'know, hug with one arm, pound on the other guy's back with the other arm. As one comic put it, "I'm hugging you but beating you at the same time."

(The coffee's just kicking in right now)

I think you may have just hit upon the new angle of Valentine's Day greeting cards~

(Front of card) Honey! I just wanted to let you know how much I love you!

(Inside card) And as soon as that black eye heals, I'm gonna give you a fat lip!

 

[Atlantians]

Edited for double post.

 

[Atlantians]

If perfection is complete in its harmony with God,

I said that perfection is 'complete harmony with God'.
Not that perfection was in complete harmony with God.
There is a nuanced difference.

and God is wrathful, wrath must therefore be a part of perfection,

God is wrathful against anything that has not remained conformed to His design and purpose.

Wrath is a reaction to the violation of perfection and a desecration of love.

and if wrath is a part of perfection, God has contradicted himself in wanting something different for us, something, if we follow the above pattern of logic, less than perfection, as we are told by Jesus to turn the other cheek, to love our neighbour as ourselves, and set aside our anger, and our want of retribution.

God is the judge and we are not.

We are however allowed to enact temporal wrath in certain circumstances such as crime.

Wrath is a reaction to the violation of God's purpose, will, and design.

If this is not less than perfection, then it must be a step higher than perfection, thereby nullifying the previously supposed perfection, because simultaneously exercising wrath whilst setting it aside cannot logically happen in action. If you feel I'm wrong, please provide an example.

'Feeling' you are wrong has no bearing on this debate.

You are wrong because your argument uses an equivocation logic fallacy as well as a non sequitor.

You are equivocating in your use of wrath as perfection itself with wrath being in complete harmony with God in His perfection.

These are not the same thing yet you are using one and then stating the other.

I disagree. If love had no opposition, there would still be love, it just may not be recognized as love, or at all. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, it still makes a sound; it still emits sound waves, even if there's no ear to pick them up and identify them.

Love is not love if a violation of that love does not produce some level of wrath.

I remember the first time I was stung by a bee. Right on the eye! Ow!

I didn't try to swat the bee away because (true story) my mom had told me that bees only sting people who panic.

So I stood my ground, and dernitt if Mr. Bee didn't sting me anyway.

I ran home and cried to my mom about two things:

1) How bad my eye hurt.
2) I couldn't believe my mom had lied to me.

Though I was only 5 at the time, I remember that day very well. My mom cradled me and cooed until I could manage to calm down enough to really listen to how sorry she was and that not all bees are that mean.

I just found a bad bee.

My mom loved me that day, and that was perhaps the day I realized how much I loved her.

(Here's the fictional bit added for contrast)

Then she beat my butt 'til it was purple and I couldn't help but think how christlike she was.

(Fictional contrast ends here)

Nope. Love can exist without wrath.

It's better that way.

This is an entirely invalid analogy.

First: If this analogy were serious, the bee would have been put to death.
Actually, by stinging you, it executed itself. But that is irrelevant.

Second: The Bee was doing what the Bee was supposed to do.

Now a real analogy:

A man walks into your yard and sees you. He grabs you and begins to molest you.

You hear a loud *bang* and see blood splatter across the short of the man and the ground.

You turn to see your mother holding a rifle with smoke dispersing into the air.

That is love.

 

[andreha]

If there's one common mistake people in this big world make, it's underestimating God's unconditional love and grace. It is so much wider and deeper than human beings can comprehend. There are so many "Christians" that still seem to think that we have to earn grace. Sheesh. The Bible makes it clear enough that every single human being will eventually make it into heaven. The only choice we really have is whether it'll be the easy way or the hard way. Easy way is at least trying to stick to the first and highest commandment - that of love. That's all. I can already hear the sound of fingers tapping away feverishly, so I'll explain a bit.

The Bible says that the Spirit of God will be poured out to all flesh in the last days. This has started happening already. It also makes it clear that all of us will most certainly reach perfection. 1Peter 5:10 comes to mind, but it's somewhere else as well... So, the easy way would be to at least try to listen and obey. The ones who steadfastly refuse to listen will have to suffer through some scary stuff (Like a star that will fall to the earth and cause billions of people to get wiped out) as written in Revelations. So, all those who'd like to catch the first flight into heaven should at least try to get the basics right as written in the Bible. If one could compare getting eternal life to an exam, there would be one question on love, that counts 51%, with a pass rate of 50%. This means that without love, you'll have to walk the hard way. Being judgemental is a sure fire way to make it really difficult for yourself.

 

[andreha]

edited to remove duplicate...

 

[Ave Maria]

Well, I've decided to be a liberal Episcopalian. I have also applied to moderate Christian Forums, one of those forums being WWMC.

 

[DeanM]

Love is not love if a violation of that love does not produce some level of wrath.

The concept of forgiveness seems to be alien to your viewpoint.

This is an entirely invalid analogy.

It's only invalid if you assume that I intended the bee to part of some love triangle. It wasn't. It was just a bee.

First: If this analogy were serious, the bee would have been put to death.
Actually, by stinging you, it executed itself. But that is irrelevant.

Yes. The bee was irrelevant.

Second: The Bee was doing what the Bee was supposed to do.

The bee is still irrelevant.

Now a real analogy:

A man walks into your yard and sees you. He grabs you and begins to molest you.

You hear a loud *bang* and see blood splatter across the short of the man and the ground.

You turn to see your mother holding a rifle with smoke dispersing into the air.

That is love.

I'm curious about this anaology. If God Himself wouldn't smite the molestor, does that mean God doesn't love me?

I suppose I should point back toward my earlier post to help clarify things.

Please read the "fictional" part of the story again.

And forget the bee . . .

 

[Minty]

If there's one common mistake people in this big world make, it's underestimating God's unconditional love and grace. It is so much wider and deeper than human beings can comprehend. There are so many "Christians" that still seem to think that we have to earn grace. Sheesh. The Bible makes it clear enough that every single human being will eventually make it into heaven. The only choice we really have is whether it'll be the easy way or the hard way. Easy way is at least trying to stick to the first and highest commandment - that of love. That's all. I can already hear the sound of fingers tapping away feverishly, so I'll explain a bit.

The Bible says that the Spirit of God will be poured out to all flesh in the last days. This has started happening already. It also makes it clear that all of us will most certainly reach perfection. 1Peter 5:10 comes to mind, but it's somewhere else as well... So, the easy way would be to at least try to listen and obey. The ones who steadfastly refuse to listen will have to suffer through some scary stuff (Like a star that will fall to the earth and cause billions of people to get wiped out) as written in Revelations. So, all those who'd like to catch the first flight into heaven should at least try to get the basics right as written in the Bible. If one could compare getting eternal life to an exam, there would be one question on love, that counts 51%, with a pass rate of 50%. This means that without love, you'll have to walk the hard way. Being judgemental is a sure fire way to make it really difficult for yourself.

This ^^^^

If any one thing that I've read would get me to return to Christianity, it's this!

So very well said, my friend

 

[DeanM]

Well, I've decided to be a liberal Episcopalian. I have also applied to moderate Christian Forums, one of those forums being WWMC.

Thanks for applying to be a moderator! It's not an easy job. It's good of you to offer to step up! I hope you pass the tests!

God bless~

 

[Minty]

Thanks for applying to be a moderator! It's not an easy job. It's good of you to offer to step up! I hope you pass the tests!

God bless~

Same here

 

[Ave Maria]

Thanks for applying to be a moderator! It's not an easy job. It's good of you to offer to step up! I hope you pass the tests!

God bless~

Thanks DeanM! I'd be happy to serve CF as a moderator!

Same here

Thanks Minty!

 

[Jayangel81]

If there's one common mistake people in this big world make, it's underestimating God's unconditional love and grace. It is so much wider and deeper than human beings can comprehend.

I totally agree with you on this. Gods love and Grace is very underestimated, however so is His Holiness and Righteous and Goodness

There are so many "Christians" that still seem to think that we have to earn grace.

Yes many churches teach this. Some want donations and they will help them "find" Salvation.

The Bible makes it clear enough that every single human being will eventually make it into heaven.

My bible says that many will not enter into the Kingdom of God

The Bible says that the Spirit of God will be poured out to all flesh in the last daysThis has started happening already. It also makes it clear that all of us will most certainly reach perfection. 1Peter 5:10 comes to mind

God has been puring out His Spirit since the first day of Pentecost We are in the Last Days.

Also Peter is writing an epistle to the Christians who are currently under heavy persecution. They are NOT talking to those who do not accept Christ.

In the day, Christians would get very discouraged, some of them would be suprised that they are undergoing so much suffering and persecution. That is what the Letter from Peter is about.

The other verse wouldnt be?

2Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It is very clear that many will fall away from the Faith, if you want I can provide clear scriptures saying so. Why won't all people be saved? Because not everyone wants to be saved my friend. It is the truth that we all have to deal with. And it is tragic

I was brought to a place today, it broke my heart seeing how many people were not saved, or is rejecting Christ..

Eternal Life is a Gift from God but man doesnt have to take it. It is VERY clear that those who practice sin, will not inherit the Kingdom of God. I emphasis on the practice. And alot of people will continue to practice. Jesus warned us NOT to die in our sins. He made it so clear that it is scary.

The only choice we really have is whether it'll be the easy way or the hard way.

There were 2 ways my friend, the narrow way and the broad way.

The ones who steadfastly refuse to listen will have to suffer through some scary stuff (Like a star that will fall to the earth and cause billions of people to get wiped out) as written in Revelations.

No those who steadfastly refuse to listen will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So, all those who'd like to catch the first flight into heaven should at least try to get the basics right as written in the Bible

Jesus made it pretty basic, you have to understand that people DON'T want to repent and turn to God, they want to live their lives in the practice of sin..

If one could compare getting eternal life to an exam, there would be one question on love, that counts 51%, with a pass rate of 50%.

My friend, this is not an exam, this is real serious stuff, you either believe on Jesus or you Do not.

This means that without love, you'll have to walk the hard way

Listen to these scriptures carefully:

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Jesus said VERY clear:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again

So peaople who does not love will walk the hard way?

1John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

We are to love, that is it If we do not, than we do not know Him and the truth is not in us. Please keep in mind these are not my sayings, I am just trying to help you out

In the truth of things? There is only two ways. The easy way (broad) and the hardway(narrow)

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I want to say my friend, I wish what you said was true, but according to God it is not the truth

Well, I've decided to be a liberal Episcopalian. I have also applied to moderate Christian Forums, one of those forums being WWMC.

I would be happy to see you on staff Thank you for applying

This ^^^^

If any one thing that I've read would get me to return to Christianity, it's this!

So very well said, my friend

It would be really nice to think about his view of things.

Imagine noone go to Hell and we would all be loving toward one another. We would all enjoy the loving presence of the Lord

The sad part is, there are people in this world who do not want to Minty, in fact many people (I do mean many) want no part in God, if they do not actually say this, theyre refusal to stop rebelling against God Himself says alot

 

[Minty]

Yup, you're so right, Jay...and one of them is me...and I'm getting to the stage that I don't have the capacity to care anymore

I am Hellbound, and I accept that...can I really be bound to a place that I don't believe in? Just because a book badly translated from it's original language says I am?

No-one really knows, for all the assurances, no-one really knows.

What I do know is that I shall treat all people well regardless of where I may end up. I do so for no expectation of heavenly reward...it makes me a nice person, I hope, and that's fine with me...I can look myself in the eye and know that I have not upset anyone or myself. If I burn for that, so be it.

 

[Jayangel81]

and I'm getting to the stage that I don't have the capacity to care anymore

well that makes me sad

Just because a book badly translated from it's original language says I am?

Only some of the "new" bibles that they are bringing out are poorly translated. I mean have you did a thorough research in this, I mean you would have to do some serious looking into this to even say this, or is this coming from "others" on this website?

No-one really knows, for all the assurances, no-one really knows.

But that is not true, the Holy Spirit testifies. We have more assurances than people think.

What I do know is that I shall treat all people well regardless of where I may end up.

And I will continue to love you for that reguardless really, but still..

I do so for no expectation of heavenly reward...

Noone should love for a heavenly reward, we were created to love one another.

it makes me a nice person, I hope, and that's fine with me...I can look myself in the eye and know that I have not upset anyone or myself. If I burn for that, so be it.

You arent going to burn for that Minty..noone "burns" because we are nice and loving, but yes because we are still sinners we are still in desperate need of a savior.

I know that we do not see eye to eye on things (especially as of late, I am sure you know what things I refer to) But I just want you to know that reguardless of that, it doesnt change the way I love you, and I do pray that one day you will see the truth that is found in Jesus.

Until than I will keep praying for you if that is okay with you

You are a very special person

 

[Kris10leigh]

Jay, it's odd how much your views conflict with mine, and yet how nice you are about handing them out. That was a very nice way of coming back to Minty's post.

 

[Jayangel81]

Jay, it's odd how much your views conflict with mine, and yet how nice you are about handing them out. That was a very nice way of coming back to Minty's post.

It isnt that I want to go against your views or Minty's. I may oppose things you two say but I will do it in love, because reguardless of our differences I do still love you

 

[Minty]

Confused

You arent going to burn for that Minty..noone "burns" because we are nice and loving

So what is hell if not eternal, fiery damnation, then? And if I am a good person, yet do not accept Jesus as my saviour, then what?

 

[Atlantians]

The concept of forgiveness seems to be alien to your viewpoint.

Forgiveness can exist and cover some things on a case by case situation between human beings. Especially between believers.

God forgives those whom repent in their regeneration.

It's only invalid if you assume that I intended the bee to part of some love triangle. It wasn't. It was just a bee.
Yes. The bee was irrelevant.

The bee is still irrelevant.

You see... if you didn't include the part about being assaulted by your mother I would agree with you. However, you did.

I'm curious about this anaology. If God Himself wouldn't smite the molestor, does that mean God doesn't love me?

*cough* Hell *cough*

He also ordered humanity to enact the justice against such civic evil.

I suppose I should point back toward my earlier post to help clarify things.

Please read the "fictional" part of the story again.

And forget the bee . . .

The bee was your antagonist. No antagonist, no drama, no drama... no story.

Well, I've decided to be a liberal Episcopalian.

Redundancy fail.

I have also applied to moderate Christian Forums, one of those forums being WWMC.

Oh my.

At least you are nice.

And your pic is that of a cute cat... therefore: Epic win.

 

[andreha]

Hi Guys.

One thing is for sure, the Bible is quite a lot to take in at one time. I'm looking at Mat 25:32 - 46. It is what Jesus says about the end - the day of judgement. He says that the nations of the world shall be seperated, those that practiced love and those that didn't. (That's the way I understand it) It does seem to say that whosoever practiced genuine love towards one another shall be saved. For that reason, I'd hate to think that non-Christians who lived lives of love and kindness would be sent to eternal damnation.

I'm also looking at Mat 18:3 and further. It does say that whosoever shall humble themselves like little children shall be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. He doesn't limit this promise to Christians only. If one also adds that to what the Bible says about the Spirit of God that will be poured out to all flesh in the last days, it seems as if mankind will indeed have a very fair chance to eternal life. The main thing does still seem to be love.

What's your take on that?

 

[Atlantians]

One thing is for sure, the Bible is quite a lot to take in at one time. I'm looking at Mat 25:32 - 46. It is what Jesus says about the end - the day of judgement.

Ok.

He says that the nations of the world shall be seperated, those that practiced love and those that didn't.

He will separate the believers from the non-believers.
The sheep from the goats.

Mathew 7:17-23 is crucial for understanding this passage in chapter 25.

It does seem to say that whosoever practiced genuine love towards one another shall be saved. For that reason, I'd hate to think that non-Christians who lived lives of love and kindness would be sent to eternal damnation.

No. They are not earning their salvation through "genuine love".

That isn't the Gospel.

The works that are being praised are those done because someone was saved. They are the evidence.

I'm also looking at Mat 18:3 and further. It does say that whosoever shall humble themselves like little children shall be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. He doesn't limit this promise to Christians only.

Yes He does. It is implicitly limited. It is limited to those in the kingdom.
Those in the kingdom are the believing ones and they are the ones being addressed.

If one also adds that to what the Bible says about the Spirit of God that will be poured out to all flesh in the last days,

Please quote the verses you are referring to.

The Bible makes it clear enough that every single human being will eventually make it into heaven.

Utterly false. In fact the Bible states very clearly the exact opposite of what you just claimed.

Paul said to the Church at Thessaloniki in his second letter"
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10-
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know Godand do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Jesus said in Mathew during the Sermon on the Mount:
Mathew 7:13-14-
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction , and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Jesus said further:
Mathew 7:17-23-
17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Daniel recorded the words of the Archangel Michael who said:
Daniel 12:2-
2"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

And Jesus echoed this when he said:
John 5:25-29
25"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26"For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

The Bible says that the Spirit of God will be poured out to all flesh in the last days. This has started happening already. It also makes it clear that all of us will most certainly reach perfection. 1Peter 5:10 comes to mind, but it's somewhere else as well... So, the easy way would be to at least try to listen and obey. The ones who steadfastly refuse to listen will have to suffer through some scary stuff (Like a star that will fall to the earth and cause billions of people to get wiped out) as written in Revelations. So, all those who'd like to catch the first flight into heaven should at least try to get the basics right as written in the Bible. If one could compare getting eternal life to an exam, there would be one question on love, that counts 51%, with a pass rate of 50%. This means that without love, you'll have to walk the hard way. Being judgemental is a sure fire way to make it really difficult for yourself.

This is not the Gospel. This is just law.
You earn your way into heaven according to your statements here.

The scripture says "Not by him you runs or wills, but by my spirit says the lord."

It also says that none can come to faith unless Christ draws them.

God prepares good works for the believing ones, the elect, to do before the foundations of the world were forged.

Good works come naturally from the believing one, from he who is redeemed.
They don't redeem you.

Not by works but by grace through faith and this not of your own lest anyone should boast.

Again: What you are teaching is not the Gospel of Christ.