Why I have such trouble believing in Christianity

[andreha]

Hi there

Thanks for your input. I had a look at Acts 2:17. It is where God says that He'll pour His spirit out to all flesh. It seems that the Lord is going to cause quite a stirring in the world in the last days. Do you think that the act of God pouring out His spirit to all will lead all to Christ?

I have received the Holy Spirit a long time ago, but sometimes I just wish I could get all people to accept Christ. The thought of souls entering eternal damnation is incredible sad.

 

[Rajni]

The way the religion is set up, one may only know Christ through ministers such as evangelists, pastors, teachers. Therefore, I find it impossible separate Christ from His earthly representatives. The only way to do so, would be to posit a "Christ Consciousness" which does not depend upon Bible, apostles or even Christianity itself, which can be experienced in all religions even if they don't recognize it as "Jesus". That is the only way to get around the notions of authority and obedience that are set forth in Scripture, Ecclesiastic structures and evangelical ministries. The Christ is no better than the messenger representing the Christ. If the authoritative messenger is a fallible book, Christ is subordinate to an interpretation of the Bible. If the authoritative messenger is found in apostolic succession, the Bishops decide how Christ is to be revealed. If it is through a Protestant revival, Christ is accepted according to the constraints and definitions placed upon the seeker by the evangelist. The message of Jesus is subject to the Sunday School teacher, the Pope, the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc. Each transmitter of the message fancies themselves to be the authoritative filter of truth or at least the representative of some hierarchy. When it comes to sourcing the understanding of Christ’s message, the distinction is so blurred between Jesus and his representatives that His message is their message and their message is His message. I cannot find a way to divorce the two so that Christ stands part from the mode of His oral and written transmission. Again, the problem is that whoever or whatever is responsible for that transmission becomes an authority in Christ’s stead. Revealed truth is not necessary the problem itself, but rather Christianity’s historic insistence that it alone represents the source of absolute truth which must be universally applied and assented to. If this were not so from the very beginning, guys like Justin Martyr would not have been arguing with others about how Christianity supersedes and is better than Judaism and paganism. How is it possible to find out what is in Christ, without first digging through the polemics and politics of Christianity? If one comes to the conclusion that Christ is a concept which is not the sole possession of Christianity, but may be found under other names besides Jesus, then Christianity kicks that person out or shuns them, just like they did to Carlton Pearson. If I ever see evidence that people around the world are coming to believe on the Jesus of the Bible without reading a Bible or hearing a sermon, then I will suspect that Christianity is indeed a universal religion revealed supernaturally by a specifically named God who wants humanity to accept Jesus as the embodiment of Absolute Truth. Otherwise, I have no choice but to recognize there are multiple and often contradictory Christ(s) revealed by various preachers, teachers, evangelists, patriarchs and Bible translators. Of course, according to the Bible, there is a Christ and an Anti-Christ. This dualism forces the “real” Christians to become heresy hunters. Therefore, perhaps the authoritative version of Christianity finds its source rooted in one little prefix in Scripture which defines and shapes its entire worldview, message and attitude. That four-letter prefix is “anti”. Whoever came up with a non-reconcilable dichotomous concept of Christ versus anti-Christ is to blame for the whole fragmented, argumentative, heresy hunting, dominionist, apocalyptic mess.
.
.

Great points!

I have found that by not limiting my view of the Divine strictly to a fundamentalist/evangelical/right-wing/conservative-Republican paradigm, that "peace which passes all understanding" has had an easier time getting through to me.



.

 

[andreha]

Yup. I've seen how people's hearts open up really quickly when you just show them love, and wait for their hearts to soak it up. Before they know it,they become believers.

 

[Atlantians]

I find it telling that my post listing the long structure of the Biblical case that most will not be saved was entirely ignored.

The way the religion is set up, one may only know Christ through ministers such as evangelists, pastors, teachers.

*cough* Sola Scriptura *cough*

Therefore, I find it impossible separate Christ from His earthly representatives.

This was stated as intentional in the Bible.
Except the representatives include all genuine believers.

The only way to do so, would be to posit a "Christ Consciousness" which does not depend upon Bible, apostles or even Christianity itself, which can be experienced in all religions even if they don't recognize it as "Jesus".

The Gospel According to Oprah.

That is the only way to get around the notions of authority and obedience that are set forth in Scripture, Ecclesiastic structures and evangelical ministries.

So: Invent a new religion by Stamping the name of 'Jesus' and the title 'Christ' on the top. Then call it 'Christian' and market it to the real Christians.

You are rejecting the very source of all knowledge about Christ and what it means for Him to be Christ.

You are robbing the term of all its meaning.

The Christ is no better than the messenger representing the Christ. If the authoritative messenger is a fallible book, Christ is subordinate to an interpretation of the Bible.

Infallible book.
As for God in Human form, even Christ Jesus:
That was His intended source of our knowledge: His written word.

If the authoritative messenger is found in apostolic succession, the Bishops decide how Christ is to be revealed.

Scripture does.

If it is through a Protestant revival, Christ is accepted according to the constraints and definitions placed upon the seeker by the evangelist.

Excuse me: Sola Scriptura is the central gem of the Protestant revival. How can you rob us of that with this terrible misrepresentation?

The message of Jesus is subject to the Sunday School teacher, the Pope,

the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc.

His message was intended to be sent THROUGH the written scriptures.

You just stated: His message is subject to His message.
That was kinda intended.

A = A. The message equals the message.
A -> A. The Message is derived from the message.

Also: You ignored the Greek texts.

When it comes to sourcing the understanding of Christ’s message, the distinction is so blurred between Jesus and his representatives that His message is their message and their message is His message.

As far as scripture is Concerned: Indeed!

His message is the Gospel. The Gospel is written and expounded upon ion the scriptures by the Apostles.

I cannot find a way to divorce the two so that Christ stands part from the mode of His oral and written transmission.

Christ reveals Himself through the written transmission.

Again, the problem is that whoever or whatever is responsible for that transmission becomes an authority in Christ’s stead.

Exactly. This isn't a problem: This was intended.

Revealed truth is not necessary the problem itself, but rather Christianity’s historic insistence that it alone represents the source of absolute truth which must be universally applied and assented to.

This is a core of the Christian message expounded by God through Himself as Jesus and His students the Apostles.

If this were not so from the very beginning, guys like Justin Martyr would not have been arguing with others about how Christianity supersedes and is better than Judaism and paganism.

So... the message is consistent from the beginning. Amazing argument against our faith... that it has been consistent since the beginning.

How is it possible to find out what is in Christ, without first digging through the polemics and politics of Christianity?

*cough* Sola Scriptura *cough*

If one comes to the conclusion that Christ is a concept which is not the sole possession of Christianity,

Then the historical 'Christ' has no meaning.

You are robbing the term of its meaning and the person who held it of HIS Authority.

but may be found under other names besides Jesus, then Christianity kicks that person out or shuns them, just like they did to Carlton Pearson.

Because it goes against the very

If I ever see evidence that people around the world are coming to believe on the Jesus of the Bible without reading a Bible or hearing a sermon, then I will suspect that Christianity is indeed a universal religion revealed supernaturally by a specifically named God who wants humanity to accept Jesus as the embodiment of Absolute Truth.

So: If people come to faith without actually knowing anything about the faith: Then you will believe?

So: If people come to faith in the exact opposite of the manner God Himself ordained... the faith is true?!

You are saying that if A = B, A = C with no correlation between B having a necessity in C.

If Christianity is True. Then Christianity would convert apart from knowledge.

Otherwise, I have no choice but to recognize there are multiple and often contradictory Christ(s) revealed by various preachers, teachers, evangelists, patriarchs

Jesus said this would occur and so did His apostles. Pointing out that things are quite consistent with the message of Christianity is not evidence against it.

and Bible translators.

Oy vey.

Of course, according to the Bible, there is a Christ and an Anti-Christ. This dualism forces the “real” Christians to become heresy hunters.

There are many anti-Christs actually.

And we are commended for being heresy hunters:
"Test all things and hold fast to that which is good"
-1 Thessalonians 5:21

"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."
-2 Corinthians 10:5

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
-Acts 17:11

Therefore, perhaps the authoritative version of Christianity finds its source rooted in one little prefix in Scripture which defines and shapes its entire worldview, message and attitude. That four-letter prefix is “anti”. Whoever came up with a non-reconcilable dichotomous concept of Christ versus anti-Christ is to blame for the whole fragmented, argumentative, heresy hunting, dominionist, apocalyptic mess.

That would be Satan. The Author of Confussion. Scripture pointing out that He will come against Christ through the many anti-christs is demonstrated both in your posts and the text of scripture itself.

The reality is that anti-christs, contradictory gospels, and false messages abound and are indeed spoken about and expected in Christianity.

Saying that Christiany was right in its prediction of future debacles does not prove it wrong.

Great points!

Hardly.

I have found that by not limiting my view of the Divine strictly to a fundamentalist/evangelical/right-wing/conservative-Republican paradigm,

Um... eh? Are you seriously suggesting that each of those terms is synonymous or equatorious?

that "peace which passes all understanding" has had an easier time getting through to me.

Oddly enough... that "peace" is declared to exist in the same book you and He Who's Name Refers to Lower Extremity Sweat Absorbers.

Hi there

Thanks for your input. I had a look at Acts 2:17. It is where God says that He'll pour His spirit out to all flesh.

You and the rest of those promoting this verse in this manner are misreading that passage very badly.

It is a quote of Joel 2 referring to the day of the Lord where the believers will be used by God to preach God's Gospel.

The pouring out of the spirit are signs and wonders as well as the prophesies and preaching of the people of God.

That very passage in Acts declares that the prophesy of Joel was fullfilled at and following Pentecost(!) some 2,000 years ago!

It seems that the Lord is going to cause quite a stirring in the world in the last days.

The last days Joel was referring to was the end of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New. It was the end of the age of the Old Covenant. This happened 2,000 years ago.

Do you think that the act of God pouring out His spirit to all will lead all to Christ?

No. Christ Himself says that most will not be saved.
Most. Not some... most.

He also says through the Apostles in their various letters that most will niot be saved.

I have received the Holy Spirit a long time ago, but sometimes I just wish I could get all people to accept Christ. The thought of souls entering eternal damnation is incredible sad.

This should be the yearning of all believers. So go and preach the Gospel. The Good News. Not the drivel that contradicts the scriptures and claims all will be saved.

 

[andreha]

You are right. The Bible says that no other name than the name of Jesus has been given under heaven by which man shall be saved. It is indeed our mission to tell that to everybody. The thought of me causing someone to go into eternal darkness is very scary and very sad.

 

[TheManeki]

I find it very interesting that for the Gospel to be so vitally important, it sure took a very long while for the good news to get out. Nearly 1500 years just to reach the New World, for instance (unless you're Mormon). If Christianity is indeed the only way, it would seem that God needs a refresher course in logistics.

 

[Im_A]

Hi everyone. Lately, I have had a lot of trouble with believing in Christianity. I currently am believing in Christianity but I find it hard to believe in a God who would condemn people to Hell simply for not believing in Him. Also, I find it hard to believe in a God who would condemn people simply for having sex before marriage. I find it hard to believe in a God who would condemn people at all. Now, I know that some people are going to say that God condemns no one but that we condemn ourselves but to me it is the same thing. Can someone on here help me out with my doubts?

i would like to know if your having a hard time believing, what are your reasons for believing?

 

[D.W.Washburn]

I find it telling that my post listing the long structure of the Biblical case that most will not be saved was entirely ignored.

Might I suggest to you that one reason for this is that we do not share your interpretation of the Scriptures. I think that most of us have examined the concept of biblical inerrancy and found it lacking. Not only do the various books of the Bible contain plainly apparent contradictions among themselves, but, there is also an incongruence between the Bible's view of the world and what we now know to be physical reality. E.g. the sun does not revolve around the earth and no amount of Josh McDowell apologetics can change the fact that the authors of the Bible believed that it did.

Now I understand that your interpretation of the Bible "works" in some way for you. But because you begin from such a different starting point than the rest of us, your posts go largely ignored.

The Apostle Paul was wise to be a Jew among Jews and a Gentile among Gentiles. Beginning at the same point as his audience, he was more likely to be heard.

 

[Rajni]

Um... eh? Are you seriously suggesting that each of those terms is synonymous or equatorious?

Oddly enough... that "peace" is declared to exist in the same book you and He Who's Name Refers to Lower Extremity Sweat Absorbers.

Um ... eh? is right.
Could you try the above again in a more understandable fashion? Thanks in advance!

 

[Rajni]

Might I suggest to you that one reason for this is that we do not share your interpretation of the Scriptures. I think that most of us have examined the concept of biblical inerrancy and found it lacking. Not only do the various books of the Bible contain plainly apparent contradictions among themselves, but, there is also an incongruence between the Bible's view of the world and what we now know to be physical reality. E.g. the sun does not revolve around the earth and no amount of Josh McDowell apologetics can change the fact that the authors of the Bible believed that it did.

Now I understand that your interpretation of the Bible "works" in some way for you. But because you begin from such a different starting point than the rest of us, your posts go largely ignored.

The Apostle Paul was wise to be a Jew among Jews and a Gentile among Gentiles. Beginning at the same point as his audience, he was more likely to be heard.

Amen.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

The thought of me causing someone to go into eternal darkness is very scary and very sad.

Don't you think it's unfair that an all powerful God created the universe with the potential for Satan's rebellion, the fall of man, sin and hell, then turned around and made humans like you responsible for causing others to go into eternal torment? If you have to take the blame, then I think you should also have been allowed to share some of God's responsibility in setting this whole thing up at the beginning.

 

[Rajni]

The Bible says that no other name than the name of Jesus has been given under heaven by which man shall be saved. It is indeed our mission to tell that to everybody. The thought of me causing someone to go into eternal darkness is very scary and very sad.

Since it is the name of Jesus by which man is saved, what other name could possibly be powerful enough trump it?

 

[BabyLutheran]

Hi there

Thanks for your input. I had a look at Acts 2:17. It is where God says that He'll pour His spirit out to all flesh. It seems that the Lord is going to cause quite a stirring in the world in the last days. Do you think that the act of God pouring out His spirit to all will lead all to Christ?

I have received the Holy Spirit a long time ago, but sometimes I just wish I could get all people to accept Christ. The thought of souls entering eternal damnation is incredible sad.

Ah, it is God's job to save souls. To say it is up to us to "accept" or "get others to accept" is making us the ones responsible for our own salvation. It is no act of ours that saves us.

Hopefully, Regular Guy can explain better than I. This is the Lutheran teaching on salvation, and I cannot explain it very well!

 

[DeanM]

Amen.

Ditto.

 

[TheManeki]

Since it is the name of Jesus by which man is saved, what other name could possibly be powerful enough trump it?

Chuck Norris'?

 

[BabyLutheran]

Now that was bad!

 

[JacksLadder]

And having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming about his baptism, he said to them, 'Brood of vipers! who did shew you to flee from the coming wrath? bear, therefore, fruits worthy of the reformation, and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have -- Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham, and now also, the axe unto the root of the trees is laid, every tree therefore not bearing good fruit is hewn down, and to fire is cast. 'I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire, whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'-Matthew 3 Young's Literal Translation


Nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it, Why me didst thou make thus? hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honor, and the one to dishonor? And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, -Romans 9 Young's literal translation

Basically all of us are to be used by God. Some of us are the elect called to God to holiness, unfortunately some are used by God to show his wrath. Is it fair for the Lion to kill the baby antelope? Not to the antelope but it is to the lion but they are both part of the plan of life that is being unfolded before us.

 

[JacksLadder]

Cont...
We are called in our limited ability as humans to treat others like we wish to be treated, whether or not life is good or bad, fair or unfair.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Chuck Norris'?

Now that was bad!

Yes, but amusing.

Still, Chuck Norris is himself a devout Christian, and would point us to Jesus. God bless Chuck Norris!

 

[D.W.Washburn]

Ah, it is God's job to save souls. To say it is up to us to "accept" or "get others to accept" is making us the ones responsible for our own salvation. It is no act of ours that saves us.

Hopefully, Regular Guy can explain better than I. This is the Lutheran teaching on salvation, and I cannot explain it very well!

You did good!

We are saved by grace apart from works of the Law. To say "you must accept" Jesus makes acceptance a work of the Law. We do not participate in our own salvation. If we can save ourselves even a little, then the cross of Christ is of no effect.