Why I hate being labeled a "Protestant"

[soldout]

Luke 12:59, straight from the Lord's mouth. "I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Like I might have said earlier, I do not believe Jesus died to take suffering away from us. I still suffer here today. But, Jesus died so I do not have to "die the death", that is, be banished from God's presence in hell. I do not believe that Catholics devalue Jesus' suffering. We, in fact, are criticized often for focusing on the passion too much (crucifix, stations of the cross, sacrifice of the Mass, etc.)

Guess what! I am so glad you used that little piece of scripture to prove your place. Here is the passage:

Luke 12:54-13:1
54 Then He also said to the multitudes, "Whenever you see a cloud rising out of the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming'; and so it is. 55 And when you see the south wind blow, you say, 'There will be hot weather'; and there is. 56 Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky and of the earth, but how is it you do not discern this time?
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."

Notice just exactly who He was talking to. I bolded it just in case you missed it.

Just how much glory do you think a person should be sucking off of our Lord? Maybe just a little bit? Maybe more for big exalted people? To whom belongs the Glory?

 

[Monica02]

Luke 12:59, straight from the Lord's mouth. "I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."


Archbishop 10K --thank you.

 

[ps139]

Guess what! I am so glad you used that little piece of scripture to prove your place. Here is the passage:

Luke 12:54-13:1
54 Then He also said to the multitudes, "Whenever you see a cloud rising out of the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming'; and so it is. 55 And when you see the south wind blow, you say, 'There will be hot weather'; and there is. 56 Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky and of the earth, but how is it you do not discern this time?
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."

Notice just exactly who He was talking to. I bolded it just in case you missed it.

Just how much glory do you think a person should be sucking off of our Lord? Maybe just a little bit? Maybe more for big exalted people? To whom belongs the Glory?

Soldout, let me assure you that we give all glory to Jesus. If it wasn't for Jesus, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Basically, the need for a purification comes down to a difference of belief in either infused righteousness or imputed righteousness. When and how you are made 100% righteous, is really the disagreement. To one view, purification is necessary, to the other, its almost an insult. Both views though, give all the glory to Jesus.

I think the hypocrites here are those who are gifted in knowledge, but do not apply it to their lives. I'm curious, who do you see as the judge in this story? Who is the prisoner, and what is prison?

 

[Archbishop 10-K]

Guess what! I am so glad you used that little piece of scripture to prove your place. Here is the passage:

I am not quite ready to deny that I am a hypocrite sometimes. Perhaps many times. The only way I can keep on moving is through the grace of God, which is more than I deserve already.

 

[soldout]

Soldout, let me assure you that we give all glory to Jesus. If it wasn't for Jesus, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Basically, the need for a purification comes down to a difference of belief in either infused righteousness or imputed righteousness. When and how you are made 100% righteous, is really the disagreement. To one view, purification is necessary, to the other, its almost an insult. Both views though, give all the glory to Jesus.

I think the hypocrites here are those who are gifted in knowledge, but do not apply it to their lives. I'm curious, who do you see as the judge in this story? Who is the prisoner, and what is prison?

I am reminded that a soft answer turns away wrath. Please forgive my rudeness.

I see the passage as an admonition against the very thing you must profess. (I am making an assumption here, please correct me if I'm wrong. You haven't yet stated one way or another).

If we are to take this passage as denoting a spiritual truth instead of just an example of their worldliness, then my understanding would be that Jesus is imploring them to submit to salvation prior to death because it is impossible after death. How can an unclean thing (sinner) provide from itself a clean thing (atonement for sin)?

The point of it then is that they will not get out of the prison.

 

[Lynn73]

Not according to Catholic theology. Your sins can be forgiven but you still must make reparations. If you have unforgiven mortal sin on your soul you will not enter purgatory /heaven. What does the Bible say about paying the last penny and not letting unclean things enter?

What's the point of two people making reparation for the same sins? Jesus already made reparation for every single sin. Sounds like double jeopardy or something like that. Either Jesus paid it all or He didn't. If He paid and we have to pay, too, that doesn't make a bit of sense. I think that some of these Scriptures are perhaps being misinterpreted or taken out of context. Just my opinion anyway. You can't have it both ways. Jesus paying and us paying too. That's taking away from His sacrifice.

 

[ps139]

I am reminded that a soft answer turns away wrath. Please forgive my rudeness.

No problems brother

I see the passage as an admonition against the very thing you must profess. (I am making an assumption here, please correct me if I'm wrong. You haven't yet stated one way or another).

Not the way I see it at all. I can't really state it, that might be considered debating.

If we are to take this passage as denoting a spiritual truth instead of just an example of their worldliness, then my understanding would be that Jesus is imploring them to submit to salvation prior to death because it is impossible after death. How can an unclean thing (sinner) provide from itself a clean thing (atonement for sin)?

We see it differently then.

The point of it then is that they will not get out of the prison.

You believe that even though Jesus says "they will not get out till they have paid the last penny?" Why would he say that? I'm trying to understand your POV here.

 

[ps139]

What's the point of two people making reparation for the same sins? Jesus already made reparation for every single sin. Sounds like double jeopardy or something like that. Either Jesus paid it all or He didn't. If He paid and we have to pay, too, that doesn't make a bit of sense. I think that some of these Scriptures are perhaps being misinterpreted or taken out of context. Just my opinion anyway. You can't have it both ways. Jesus paying and us paying too. That's taking away from His sacrifice.

He paid for all of it, and our sins are forgiven.
We still sin though, why?

 

[soldout]

You believe that even though Jesus says "they will not get out till they have paid the last penny?" Why would he say that? I'm trying to understand your POV here.

from my previous post:
How can an unclean thing (sinner) provide from itself a clean thing (atonement for sin)?
The point of it then is that they will not get out of the prison.

That actually was my POV. That Jesus is using the example of His complete atonement in juxtaposition with their inability to do it for themselves. Meaning if His atonement is not accepted there can be no full payment and they would remain in prison.

Prior to this Peter asks this:
Luke 12:41
41 Then Peter said to Him, "Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?"

And the Lord answers him with a dissertation.

Then this:
Luke 12:54
54 Then He also said to the multitudes,

and the passage we are discussing is delivered after Jesus calls them hypocrits.

In context, I think Jesus was not stating that there was a second chance in purgatory or that anyone of these actually could pay for their own sins. In fact I believe the exact opposite is the meaning.

 

[Monica02]

What's the point of two people making reparation for the same sins? Jesus already made reparation for every single sin. Sounds like double jeopardy or something like that. Either Jesus paid it all or He didn't. If He paid and we have to pay, too, that doesn't make a bit of sense. I think that some of these Scriptures are perhaps being misinterpreted or taken out of context. Just my opinion anyway. You can't have it both ways. Jesus paying and us paying too. That's taking away from His sacrifice.[/QUOT

We are to share in Christ's Sacrifice. This makes sense to me. Jesus died that our sins may be forgiven. This does not eliminate our responsibility to make reparations for those sins. I can forgive you for breaking my car window but you still must buy me a new one. This is sort of how Catholics look at forgivenss/reparations.

 

[Monica02]

from my previous post:
How can an unclean thing (sinner) provide from itself a clean thing (atonement for sin)?
The point of it then is that they will not get out of the prison.

That actually was my POV. That Jesus is using the example of His complete atonement in juxtaposition with their inability to do it for themselves. Meaning if His atonement is not accepted there can be no full payment and they would remain in prison.

Prior to this Peter asks this:
Luke 12:41
41 Then Peter said to Him, "Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?"

And the Lord answers him with a dissertation.

Then this:
Luke 12:54
54 Then He also said to the multitudes,

and the passage we are discussing is delivered after Jesus calls them hypocrits.

In context, I think Jesus was not stating that there was a second chance in purgatory or that anyone of these actually could pay for their own sins. In fact I believe the exact opposite is the meaning.

Purgatory is not a second chance. All mortal sins have been forgiven for people in purgatory or heaven. Purgatory is where you are cleansed and make any unpaid reparations for already forgiven mortal sins.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Purgatory is not a second chance. All mortal sins have been forgiven for people in purgatory or heaven. Purgatory is where you are cleansed and make any unpaid reparations for already forgiven mortal sins.

If it is forgiven, there is NO condemnation whatsoever. I can understand a purgatory to get rid of bad habits, but the sin itself is already forgotten.

 

[Monica02]

True, if a sin is forgiven then one is not condemned for it. Hell is for the condemned. Forgiven sin is forgiven, not forgotten. Purgatory is for cleansing and unpaid reparations.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

True, if a sin is forgiven then one is not condemned for it. Hell is for the condemned. Forgiven sin is forgiven, not forgotten. Purgatory is for cleansing and unpaid reparations.

Define unpaid reperations

 

[Lynn73]

How can anything be unpaid when Jesus paid it ALL?

 

[ps139]

Define unpaid reperations

In my opinion "unpaid reparation" would not be the best term to use. I think it is just a transformation of the mind and soul to complete holiness, complete righteousness, and that we suffer in the process - but always with a smile on our faces because we know where we are going, and we know that we are becoming more and more holy. I think the theological term is "sanctification." When Christ comes into our lives while we are on earth, we begin sanctification, but I do not think it is complete on earth unless you totally stop sinning. We believe that Christ's sacrifice totally justifies us - justification is complete with Christ - but sanctification is an ongoing process that MUST be completed before entering Heaven (any trace of sin cannot exist in Heaven) and for most people who are not wholly sanctified during life, this takes place in "purgatory" - a process of purification. I'm sure we all agree that Heaven is totally pure and spotless. So, to make a long story short, I think what Monica means by "unpaid reparations" is the "rest" of the sanctification process that was not completed before our earthly death.

 

[Monica02]

How can anything be unpaid when Jesus paid it ALL?

Lynn, I guess if you do not feel that people are not resposible for anything they do then you cannot understand this. I do not think that you believe this however. Do you feel that you should make right if you have offended someone? Sin offends God. I think that people opposed to the notion of purgatory do not make a distinction between forgiveness and repayment. Do you think that a serious criminal should not be put in jail? Does the suffering of Jesus allow for him/her to go free?

 

[Monica02]

Atonemnet for sin can be made in three ways. Jesus merited our deliverence from sin and its punishment. Atonement for sin can be made in this life or in the state of Purgatory. I think unatoned sin is a better term than unpaid reparations.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

In my opinion "unpaid reparation" would not be the best term to use. I think it is just a transformation of the mind and soul to complete holiness, complete righteousness, and that we suffer in the process - but always with a smile on our faces because we know where we are going, and we know that we are becoming more and more holy. I think the theological term is "sanctification." When Christ comes into our lives while we are on earth, we begin sanctification, but I do not think it is complete on earth unless you totally stop sinning. We believe that Christ's sacrifice totally justifies us - justification is complete with Christ - but sanctification is an ongoing process that MUST be completed before entering Heaven (any trace of sin cannot exist in Heaven) and for most people who are not wholly sanctified during life, this takes place in "purgatory" - a process of purification. I'm sure we all agree that Heaven is totally pure and spotless. So, to make a long story short, I think what Monica means by "unpaid reparations" is the "rest" of the sanctification process that was not completed before our earthly death.

Thanks for your explanation ps139! You always write good explanations

You should be a bishop or cardinal or something

 

[ps139]

You should be a bishop or cardinal or something

Hey, ya never know . I'm actually going to a vocations discernment weekend in February - pray for me - I want to know what God wants me to do with my life.