Why I don't believe in evolution...

[Sam Saved by Grace]

Again, context:

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:18-24

And letting scripture interpret scripture:

So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Matthew 7:17-20

A good tree does not become a good tree when it brings forth fruit. It brings forth fruit because it is a good tree. It's not the fruit that makes the tree good. It's the tree that makes the fruit good.

By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he was attested to be righteous Hebrews 11:4

So we see that James is not saying that we are justified by works. He is saying that those who are justified by faith will have works necessarily. He is saying faith that does not produce works is not really faith. Just as the body without life is dead, so faith without works is dead.

Context, context, context.

 

[The Barbarian]

So we see that James is not saying that we are justified by works.

That's a testable belief. Let's take a look...

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Sorry, you're wrong. God very plainly says that we are justified by works. This is, as you know why Luther attempted to remove James and Revelations from the Bible. They both contradict sola fide.

Jesus very clearly tells us in Matthew 25, that our works will determine whether we go with Him or with the devil for eternity. He's telling the truth.

Notice that works alone aren't sufficient,either.

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

If you do works as a chore with the sole purpose of salvation, you are as lose as a person who has faith and no works. There is no shortcut. Here's the heart of all of scripture:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. [38] This is the greatest and the first commandment. [39] And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

That love is manifested as faith and works. But it is, as Paul points out, love that matters. Loving God and loving your fellow man.

Do that, and all the rest follows. Context, context, context.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

Works are the result, not the cause. Those who have saving faith in Jesus Christ produce works necessarily. But only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ saves a person. And to preach anything else is to preach another gospel.

But even if we (apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have (already) preached to you, he is to be accursed! Galatians 1:8 (so much for apostolic succession)

 

[The Barbarian]

Works are the result, not the cause.

As God says:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

As you see, works and faith both justify us, but only if we obey the great commandments. As Paul says, faith and works do us no good at all, if we lack love. Love for God and love for our fellow man. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3

And to preach anything else is to preach another gospel.

 

[The Barbarian]

Works are the result, not the cause.

Works, as James says, are what justify us, as faith does. Both faith and works, if they justify us, are the result of love. Otherwise, as Paul says, they mean nothing. Love is the cause.

 

[Job 33:6]

Again, context:

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:18-24

And letting scripture interpret scripture:

So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Matthew 7:17-20

A good tree does not become a good tree when it brings forth fruit. It brings forth fruit because it is a good tree. It's not the fruit that makes the tree good. It's the tree that makes the fruit good.

By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he was attested to be righteous Hebrews 11:4

So we see that James is not saying that we are justified by works. He is saying that those who are justified by faith will have works necessarily. He is saying faith that does not produce works is not really faith. Just as the body without life is dead, so faith without works is dead.

Context, context, context.

So to return to the OP on the topic of evolution, if evolution were hypothetically true, but a Christian performed an action of denying it, would this be a rotten fruit?

This question is for you too @The Barbarian .

If we can judge a Christian by their actions as a kind of barometer of their faith, Then if their actions include things such as an act of rejecting a work of God, such as a detail about how God has created (assuming evolution or an old earth were true), Then could the act of rejecting these works of God demonstrate an unperfected faith, and therefore weigh into the question of whether or not that person will be saved?

 

[The Barbarian]

If we can judge a Christian by their actions as a kind of barometer of their faith, Then if their actions include things such as an act of rejecting a work of God, such as a detail about how God has created (assuming evolution or an old earth were true), Then could the act of rejecting these works of God demonstrate an unperfected faith, and therefore weigh into the question of whether or not that person will be saved?

I don't think so. Jesus says that everything depends on loving God and loving your fellow man. As Paul says, even doing the right things and believing the right things won't save you if you don't have that love.

And Paul says that even Gentiles are justified, by their understanding of the natural law God gives to all men:

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: 15 Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Jesus puts a finer and more unsettling point on it in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Here, He tells his followers to emulate a Samaritan rather than Levite who keeps all of the law, because the Samaritan loved his fellow man enough to save a stranger who needed help, while the Levite would not. Jews regarded Samaritans as half-breed heretics, worse than pagans.

Putting it into more current terms, suppose an American trying to get to the airport at Kabul is set upon by criminals, beaten and left in the street. Some Christians rush by him, in their haste to leave before it's too late. But a Muslim finds him, gives him first aid, puts him in a cab, and pays some Taliban security guards to let him be taken safely into the airport. Who would Jesus tell us to imitate?

In these parables, the Muslim and the Good Samaritan have a lot of things wrong about God. But they have the big thing right about God. And according to Jesus, that is what is important.

When you face God, it won't be a theology test. It will be simple. "Did your life evidence love for God and for your fellow man?"

Or so I think. What we think of evolution will not matter at all, unless we make an idol of our thinking and insist that everyone must accept it our way in order to be saved.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

In these parables, the Muslim and the Good Samaritan have a lot of things wrong about God. But they have the big thing right about God. And according to Jesus, that is what is important.

This is utter heresy. I reject that - it's unbiblical nonsense. This is the type of fatal error that follows a rejection of sola fide.

Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me."

We are told, “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Muslims do NOT have "the big thing" right about God, no matter the works. Jesus said again and again what was "important". Works do NOT save.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

When you face God, it won't be a theology test. It will be simple. "Did your life evidence love for God and for your fellow man?"

You really are preaching another Gospel.

The blood of Jesus and only the blood of Jesus will be the test. Only those covered by the Blood of Jesus Christ will be unhurt of the Second Death. Any other teaching is a lie from the pits of hell.

 

[The Barbarian]

In these parables, the Muslim and the Good Samaritan have a lot of things wrong about God. But they have the big thing right about God. And according to Jesus, that is what is important.

This is utter heresy.

If so, then Jesus is a heretic. I'll go with His opinion:

Mathew 22:36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? [37] Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. [38] This is the greatest and the first commandment. [39] And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

You should, too.

Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me."

That's his point. You've confused being in the right club with being with Jesus.

Muslims do NOT have "the big thing" right about God

Notice that Jesus tells people to emulate a heretic who has love for God and man, as opposed to a theologically-correct Levite, who does not. Better listen to Him.

Works do NOT save.

I'll go with God's opinion on that one:

James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Yes, I know you've said He didn't really mean what it says here. But He does mean it.

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

You are demonstrating blatant hypocrisy. You outright reject and reinterpret various scriptures to bring them in line with an extrabiblical, scientific worldview, while at the same time pretending to adhere to strict literalism regarding an outlier verse in James, which you continue to take out of context, for the sole purpose that it fits with your belief system. Therefore, you have very sufficiently demonstrated, to any honest person with a working brain, that your standard changes to suit your arguments. Rather than conforming your arguments to the Word of God, you are attempting to conform the Word of God to your argument.

You must surely understand the meaning of context. You cannot just rip a verse out of it's passage without considering what surrounds it, as well as what the vast majority of the other scriptures teach. That is very poor hermeneutics, and even by lay standards. Let's again consider the passage in James:

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:18-24

Clearly, the context demonstrates the point James is attempting to make. James is not denying justification by faith alone - the whole passage is talking about faith. He is merely making the distinction between living faith and dead faith, teaching that saving faith always produces works. Works are the validation of our faith. This couldn't be any clearer by the statement, "Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works." So it is in that context, and that context alone, that verse 24 is to be interpreted, and by any reasonable hermeneutical standard.

Now as to the parable of the Good Samaritan, I think Jesus made it abundantly clear how He felt about the Samaritan religion in His conversation with the woman at the well. "Salvation is of the Jews" is pretty exclusionary, if you ask me. He flat out said that Samaritans do not know God. It's pretty clear that the parable was in no way a validation of the Samaritan religion. Rather, Jesus was using a Samaritan as an example because of the way in which the two groups despised each other.

The Bible is abundantly clear in multiple places that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. And this fact isn't lost on unbelievers, who often attack Christianity for that very reason. But for whatever reason, it seems to be lost on you.

Now hear this, O foolish and senseless people,
Who have eyes but do not see;
Who have ears but do not hear.
Jeremiah 5:21

 

[Job 33:6]

I suppose I'd agree with both of you.

My only addition would be that, Jesus would seek out that Muslim to give them an opportunity at salvation. Thus giving them the opportunity to follow Him. And if that hypothetical Muslim died right after saving that Christians life, I think Jesus would still find a way to seek that person out to provide the opportunity, on the basis that there were things that the Muslim did right.

Because we have to ask the question, if God were to simply send this person to hell without giving them opportunity to make a choice and to conduct an act of following God, despite them reflecting God's image, it would be immoral.

Or, let's think of another example.

Let's say you have a African American woman living in the 1700s as a slave in the United States, who has a slave owner who is Christian who shared the gospel of Christ but did so in a way that promoted slavery. And so this slave woman would then reject Jesus and would be an atheist because how else would she trust in a Lord that would justify slavery?

But then let's say if that slave woman dies while still having rejected Jesus, It would only make sense that Jesus was still seek that person out even if that person was an atheist at the time that they lived, assuming our God is a moral God.

So in one sense people who reflect the image of God can still be loved by God and are still loved by God, but these people are still given an opportunity to trust in the Lord and to be saved through him, even though we may not see that in the physical world today.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Where do we draw the line of when humans became fully evolved, morally conscious, and spiritual beings?

Maybe it begins when the first human being makes the first freewill choice?

When a creature does something of it's own will and not acting out of an animalistic, evolved programming?

This is a wild shot in the dark at an answer. haha

 

[Sam Saved by Grace]

Because we have to ask the question, if God were to simply send this person to hell without giving them opportunity, despite them reflecting God's image, it would be immoral.

...assuming our God is a moral God.

God. Owes. Us. Nothing.

God would be perfectly justified in destroying the entire world right now - man, woman, and child - and sending us all to hell. It is by sheer grace that God even allows some of us another day of living, to say nothing of salvation. Yet God, in His love, sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross, in order to save a people for Himself. This is by sheer grace - nothing owed. And all of salvation - every last bit of it, from the moment of faith, to the running of the race, to persevering to the grave - is God's doing. And everything God does, He does for His own glory. Because this is what is good, right, and true. He is God. Not us. And He is sovereign over all things.

Moral? As if you or I, mere dust - creatures from the ground - could ever judge a thrice Holy God! Every aspect of our beings are radically corrupted by sin. There is none righteous - not even one. The very idea that we could ever judge morality as it pertains to the action or inaction of our Holy, sovereign Creator, is blasphemous lunacy. And it is a massive overstatement to say that we reflect the image of God. There is only One who is the Image of the Invisible God, and that is Jesus Christ.

You should fall on your face in repentance.

 

[Job 33:6]

God. Owes. Us. Nothing.

God would be perfectly justified in destroying the entire world right now - man, woman, and child - and sending us all to hell. It is by sheer grace that God even allows some of us another day of living, to say nothing of salvation. Yet God, in His love, sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross, in order to save a people for Himself. This is by sheer grace - nothing owed. And all of salvation - every last bit of it, from the moment of faith, to the running of the race, to persevering to the grave - is God's doing. And everything God does, He does for His own glory. Because this is what is good, right, and true. He is God. Not us. And He is sovereign over all things.

Moral? As if you or I, mere dust - creatures from the ground - could ever judge a thrice Holy God! Every aspect of our beings are radically corrupted by sin. There is none righteous - not even one. The very idea that we could ever judge morality as it pertains to the action or inaction of our Holy, sovereign Creator, is blasphemous lunacy. As it is to say that we reflect the image of God. There is only ONE who is the Image of the Invisible God, and that is Jesus Christ. Adam was created in the image of God. He was not THE image of God.

You should fall on your face in repentance.

I just don't agree with this position.

It's true that God doesn't owe us anything, but I don't think that means that we don't have the ability to guess at how He saves based on His character. My parents never owed me food on the table, but I could still guess based on their character that they might provide it, depending on my actions toward them.

If everything fell on God, and God only, and there was no choice that any of us could make that would weight into salvation, then it would make God out to be a tyrant, because then God would be sending billions of people to eternal damnation for things that they have no control over. Unless God alternatively saved everyone, including Muslims.

And morality is something we can experience. Contrary to the dogma that "who are we to judge God". To be fair, we have the ability to experience pain, we have the ability to murder, and to love and give and heal. Which means we have some ability to gauge morality.

So if hypothetically, God eternally burned endless quantities of people in hellfire, for things that they have 0 control over, such a God would be essentially what we know of as evil.

So I think that it goes against God's character and God's attributes to suggest that no action that any person could perform could effect their odds of salvation. But rather part of God's grace would involve giving people the opportunity to choose to conduct the action or good work of following Him.

 

[Job 33:6]

I just don't agree with this position.

If everything fell on God, and God only, and there was no choice that any of us could make that would weight into salvation, then it would make God out to be a tyrant, because then God would be sending billions of people to eternal damnation for things that they have no control over.

And morality is something we can experience. Contrary to the dogma that "who are we to judge God". To be fair, we have the ability to experience pain, we have the ability to murder, and to love and give and heal. Which means we have some ability to gauge morality.

So if hypothetically, God eternally burned endless quantities of people in hellfire, for things that they have 0 control over, such a God would be essentially what we know of as evil.

So I think that it goes against God's character and God's attributes to suggest that no action that any person could perform could effect their odds of salvation.

And if there were no choice that any person could make that would weigh into salvation, then the only way that God could be morally good would be if God saved everyone, including Muslims.

 

[The Barbarian]

You are demonstrating blatant hypocrisy.

You're upset that you've been reminded that God's Word does not support your new doctrines. That's not anyone's fault. It's just what it is.

You outright reject and reinterpret various scriptures to bring them in line with an extrabiblical worldview, while at the same time pretending to adhere to strict literalism.

Clearly, the context demonstrates the point James is attempting to make. James is not denying justification by faith alone

Let's take a look, again...

James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

You're just ignoring the context, in which God tells you that you are justified by works and not by faith only. This is why Martin Luther wanted to remove James from the Bible. He correctly stated that it contradicted his new doctrine of "faith only."

For a time even inserted "alone" into another verse to make it consistent with his new doctrine.

Romans 3:28 For we account a man to be justified by faith alone, without the works of the law.
(Luther's alteration of the verse in red)

So Luther was guite honest about this issue, adjusting scripture to fit his doctrine.

 

[The Barbarian]

Roman 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Paul clearly describes the situation of the Good Muslim and the Good Samaritan. It's not the hearers of the law who are just, but "the doers of the law shall be justified."

Even, as Paul explains, the Gentiles who show the work of the law written in their hearts.

 

[Job 33:6]

Roman 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Paul clearly describes the situation of the Good Muslim and the Good Samaritan. It's not the hearers of the law who are just, but "the doers of the law shall be justified."

Even, as Paul explains, the Gentiles who show the work of the law written in their hearts.

In many instances, scripture also refers to predestination. God preparing vessels for His wrath, God favoring some before they are even born, and see being predestined before the foundation of the world.

In this sense, I wouldn't think that good works would be a universal means of influencing the probability of salvation. In that for some people, salvation is completely out of their hands and is already established before they even have a choice in the matter.

 

[The Barbarian]

In this sense, I wouldn't think that good works would be a universal means of influencing the probability of salvation. In that for some people, salvation is completely out of their hands and is already established before they even have a choice in the matter.

There's the problem of evil. Would God create evil people for the purpose of torturing them forever in Hell?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.