Why I don't believe in evolution...

[Job 33:6]

Bible doesn’t teach evolution, true. The question is, how you can be christian and believe in evolution... I never get those people, like what is the logic there?

It really boils down to the concept of general revelation. If you see something in the world, such as the sun being hot, naturally we attribute the sun's heat to God. While the Bible doesn't give us any sort of scientific description of evolution, general revelation does. And so it is then attributed to God.

 

[Sunshinee777]

It really boils down to the concept of general revelation. If you see something in the world, such as the sun being hot, naturally we attribute the sun's heat to God. While the Bible doesn't give us any sort of scientific description of evolution, general revelation does. And so it is then attributed to God.

But God has given us facts about the creation of the world in Genesis. And there is more facts in apocryphal books.

 

[Job 33:6]

But God has given us facts about the creation of the world in Genesis. And there is more facts in apocryphal books.

Well, Genesis isn't exactly a scientific textbook. There are many concepts that aren't clarified that can only be understood through general revelation.

For example,
In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:11 LEB

Who actually believes that there are windows in heaven that let rainwater out? Are these floating windows in the sky or on space?

Are they windows like on a house? Or is it like a space-time wormhole? Or something completely different altogether?

So scripture isn't exactly a literal scientific textbook of facts. Understanding details of creation requires general revelation.

Another example:
Galileo was persecuted for suggesting heliocentrism. This is another instance where general revelation was needed to advance our understanding of scripture. Without that general revelation, we might still believe in geocentrism.

And lastly, all scripture has to be read through the context of the author. When we read something like the book of Romans for example, Paul dedicates multiple chapters to calling for unity where people are divided over what types of foods to eat or what days are holy or how to relate to government. These concepts of course are specific to people of a particular time experiencing particular challenges. And so it's a truly understand scripture come oftentimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of the original author yeah I have a particular book, and in the context of a particular time that it was written.

So scripture just isn't so simple with respect to the topic of Genesis. It isn't written like a textbook as we might read textbooks today. There are many concepts that it doesn't clarify on. It's easy for people to misinterpret and to make mistakes and interpreting scripture and we know this has been the case throughout history. And there's a whole separate historical context behind scripture that people of modern times aren't typically familiar with.

And for these reasons and probably more, general revelation helps us fill in the gaps.

 

[Job 33:6]

Who sctually believes in bible?
-I do.

And have you read the apocryphal books? It will reveal that there is portals in the dome God created. Space isn’t outside of the dome, it’s inside of the dome. Bible talked about heavens, not just one heaven. God has given us all information how world was created and how it works. There is YouTube videos explaining this.

A. Scripture doesn't say "portals" it says "windows.

B. The dome held back flood waters of Genesis as noted above. As noted by the firmament separating waters from waters;
7.So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.
8.And God called the vaulted dome “heaven.” And there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.
9. And God said, “Let the waters under heaven be gathered to one place, and let the dry ground appear.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:7-9 LEB

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:11 LEB

And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained.
Genesis 8:2 LEB

and noted by the windows opening and closing and letting "the waters which were over the dome" in. So above you said that this dome is on space. So if water came from over the dome, is it accurate to say that you think that water traveled in through portals from outer space to flood earth? And;

C. The book of Ezekiel states that a human being was observed above the firmament. Do you think that people had telescopes and saw someone above the dome in space?

And from above the expanse that was above their heads there was the likeness of a throne, looking like a sapphire, and above the likeness of the throne was a likeness similar to the appearance of a human on it, but above it.
Ezekiel 1:26 LEB

Or do you think this verse doesn't actually mean what it says?

 

[Sunshinee777]

A. Scripture doesn't say "portals" it says "windows.

B. The dome held back flood waters of Genesis as noted above. As noted by the firmament separating waters from waters;
7.So God made the vaulted dome, and he caused a separation between the waters which were under the vaulted dome and between the waters which were over the vaulted dome. And it was so.
8.And God called the vaulted dome “heaven.” And there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.
9. And God said, “Let the waters under heaven be gathered to one place, and let the dry ground appear.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:7-9 LEB

In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month—on that day all the springs of the great deep were split open, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Genesis 7:11 LEB

And the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, and the rain from the heavens was restrained.
Genesis 8:2 LEB

and noted by the windows opening and closing and letting "the waters which were over the dome" in. So above you said that this dome is on space. So if water came from over the dome, is it accurate to say that you think that water traveled in through portals from outer space to flood earth? And;

C. The book of Ezekiel states that a human being was observed above the firmament. Do you think that people had telescopes and saw someone above the dome in space?

And from above the expanse that was above their heads there was the likeness of a throne, looking like a sapphire, and above the likeness of the throne was a likeness similar to the appearance of a human on it, but above it.
Ezekiel 1:26 LEB

Or do you think this verse doesn't actually mean what it says?

Dear brother, I recommend you watch this guys videos about the topic. He has best videos explaining this topic.
Genesis alone doesn’t explain how world was created. God bless you.

 

[Job 33:6]

Dear brother, I recommend you watch this guys videos about the topic. He has best videos explaining this topic.
Genesis alone doesn’t explain how world was created. God bless you.

I'm curious about how you might answer the above questions related to Genesis. Do you have an answer?

 

[Sunshinee777]

So, like in that video explains. Garden of eden is in Finland/near Finland. Or it is part of it. Also bible supporting this in many other verses but I don’t have English translations of those videos to share.

 

[Sunshinee777]

There is even longer video if someone is interested.

 

[Job 33:6]

So, like in that video explains. Garden of eden is in Finland/near Finland. Or it is part of it. Also bible supporting this in many other verses but I don’t have English translations of those videos to share.

But what about the questions that I wrote for you?

Noted here:
Why I don't believe in evolution...

 

[Sunshinee777]

But what about the questions that I wrote for you?

Noted here:
Why I don't believe in evolution...

I actually have hard time crasping the idea that God is above the firmament watching us. How He can be at the same time in heaven? (Inside firmament)
I would say because He is God, He can be in many places at the same time. Im not here to say I have all the answers but gladly I know all the times all things God wants me to know because He is the lamp onto my feet. I don’t have any obsessive want to need to know everything, I just trust in God’s word and He never lies. We can’t use our own logic to interpret bible, so if I or anybody else needs to know something specific from bible we need to meditate that when we read bible in the Spirit and be in prayer and in touch with God. Also, fasting is recommended. This question you have I don’t have any answers because I haven’t meditated it yet. If I get some sort of revelations I’ll let you know.

 

[trophy33]

Bible doesn’t teach evolution, true. The question is, how you can be christian and believe in evolution... I never get those people, like what is the logic there?

The logic is that one goes where the facts point.

To fight facts and scientific progress just to keep some literal reading of the Bible is not a good long-term position for a Christian living in a civlized modern world.

 

[Job 33:6]

I actually have hard time crasping the idea that God is above the firmament watching us. How He can be at the same time in heaven? (Inside firmament)
I would say because He is God, He can be in many places at the same time. Im not here to say I have all the answers but gladly I know all the times all things God wants me to know because He is the lamp onto my feet. I don’t have any obsessive want to need to know everything, I just trust in God’s word and He never lies. We can’t use our own logic to interpret bible, so if I or anybody else needs to know something specific from bible we need to meditate that when we read bible in the Spirit and be in prayer and in touch with God. Also, fasting is recommended. This question you have I don’t have any answers because I haven’t meditated it yet. If I get some sort of revelations I’ll let you know.

The question isn't how God can see us, but rather it's a question of how we could see him in human form above the firmament in which the stars are placed. Meaning that Ezekiel states that people could see God in human form beyond the stars.

So more specifically, how do you think that is possible?

Did the people here on earth have telescopes to see God in human form above the firmament which is millions of light years away in space?

And do you have a response regarding the questions about water?

And if you don't know the answer to these questions, that's fine because the truth is that special revelation alone doesn't clarify on these topics. However, I would say that general revelation does offer a very clear answer to all of them. Which is why I turn to general revelation where special revelation may be difficult to understand.

In my opinion, the so-called "literalists" actually are not literalists at all. But rather upon closer examination what we see is, things like windows turning into portals in space, ideas and concepts in scripture being turned into something that isn't actually said in scripture. Or you see just a collapse of thought with strange questions of how people could see God in human form above the firmament if the firmament contains the stars and thus God in human form is beyond the stars. In an age of pre-teloscope times, there's no real way to answer the question of how people could see a human being beyond the stars.

At least there isn't any way to answer it through the so-called "literalist" position. Unless of course the literalist abandons trusting in what scripture says, and assumes that the verse is metaphorical.

It's only when we turn to general revelation that these questions about special revelation begin to make much more logical sense. And rather than saying "I don't know", We end up with a much more clear picture and simple and straightforward answer to these questions.

And when we look towards general revelation, we find evolution.

 

[coffee4u]

Bible doesn’t teach evolution, true. The question is, how you can be christian and believe in evolution... I never get those people, like what is the logic there?

Their logic comes from implicitly trusting in science and because they believe science can't be wrong because they have 'proof', they interpret the Bible around scientific 'revelation'.

A is true- so B means something else.
Instead of assuming that B is true-so A is wrong for various reasons.

And lol, I turn over the page and there it is, admitted.

To fight facts and scientific progress just to keep some literal reading of the Bible is not a good long-term position for a Christian living in a civlized modern world.

Everyone has a choice, to believe man and his tests or Gods word and they would rather believe mankind.

 

[Sunshinee777]

The question isn't how God can see us, but rather it's a question of how we could see him in human form above the firmament in which the stars are placed. Meaning that Ezekiel states that people could see God in human form beyond the stars.

So more specifically, how do you think that is possible?

Did the people here on earth have telescopes to see God in human form above the firmament which is millions of light years away in space?

And do you have a response regarding the questions about water?

And if you don't know the answer to these questions, that's fine because the truth is that special revelation alone doesn't clarify on these topics. However, I would say that general revelation does offer a very clear answer to all of them. Which is why I turn to general revelation where special revelation may be difficult to understand.

In my opinion, the so-called "literalists" actually are not literalists at all. But rather upon closer examination what we see is, things like windows turning into portals in space, ideas and concepts in scripture being turned into something that isn't actually said in scripture. Or you see just a collapse of thought with strange questions of how people could see God in human form above the firmament if the firmament contains the stars and thus God in human form is beyond the stars. In an age of pre-teloscope times, there's no real way to answer the question of how people could see a human being beyond the stars.

At least there isn't any way to answer it through the so-called "literalist" position. Unless of course the literalist abandons trusting in what scripture says, and assumes that the verse is metaphorical.

It's only when we turn to general revelation that these questions about special revelation begin to make much more logical sense. And rather than saying "I don't know", We end up with a much more clear picture and simple and straightforward answer to these questions.

And when we look towards general revelation, we find evolution.

Believers see and hear in spiritual eyes and ears. You would be surprised how much in bible some people interpret as literally ”seen” than ”seeing with spiritual eyes” where is this anointing oil? They used anointing oil in the bible. One of the incredients is ”kanehbosm” (Cannabism) why this anointing oil is not prepared in the churches today? Real anointing oil? Because churches are corrupted, they don’t want us to see with spiritual eyes. We are left without facts. Well, some of us, who doesn’t have the lamp onto their feet.

 

[Derek1111]

Their logic comes from implicitly trusting in science and because they believe science can't be wrong because they have 'proof', they interpret the Bible around scientific 'revelation'.

A is true- so B means something else.
Instead of assuming that B is true-so A is wrong for various reasons.

And lol, I turn over the page and there it is, admitted.



Everyone has a choice, to believe man and his tests or Gods word and they would rather believe mankind.

Surely you know this is not what people are arguing for? We're merely discussing what makes us interpret Scripture a certain way: are there reasons to believe that the Creation narrative must/must not be interpreted literally? What are these? If we're not sure whether those verses must be taken literally, what else can help us understand the issues?

The is not science versus Scripture. It's Scripture explained by the exercise of our hearts and minds. No one is arguing that your beliefs are stupid, but you seem to be arguing that others are flawed by compromise.

 

[coffee4u]

Surely you know this is not what people are arguing for? We're merely discussing what makes us interpret Scripture a certain way: are there reasons to believe that the Creation narrative must/must not be interpreted literally? What are these? If we're not sure whether those verses must be taken literally, what else can help us understand the issues?

The is not science versus Scripture. It's Scripture explained by the exercise of our hearts and minds. No one is arguing that your beliefs are stupid, but you seem to be arguing that others are flawed by compromise.

Yes, yes it is science vs scripture.

You interpret the scriptures the way you do because you believe science has unveiled new truth about the word that contradict the plain reading.
It has nothing at all to do with what scripture says. God plainly said he created over 6 days, you either take that at face value or not.

If you choose not to take it at face value then at least be honest enough to admit its due to science and not due to what scripture says.
What I don't get is why all of you keep denying this. It seems most want to pretend that scripture teaches evolution. What a laugh.

 

[Derek1111]

Yes, yes it is science vs scripture.

You interpret the scriptures the way you do because you believe science has unveiled new truth about the word that contradict the plain reading.
It has nothing at all to do with what scripture says. God plainly said he created over 6 days, you either take that at face value or not.

If you choose not to take it at face value then at least be honest enough to admit its due to science and not due to what scripture says.
What I don't get is why all of you keep denying this. It seems most want to pretend that scripture teaches evolution. What a laugh.

There is an alternative explanation, if only you were charitable enough to ask: namely, that some people sincerely believe that God used a literary construct of one week to explain creation to a technologically primitive people. I believe that. I don't believe the Israelites needed to know how God created, merely that He created. If we subsequently find out details that inform us about the "how" then fine.

If science and God ever conflict, I choose God (in reality this never happens, almost by definition; though some scientists are in insistent conflict with God). Why do you insist I don't?

 

[coffee4u]

There is an alternative explanation, if only you were charitable enough to ask: namely, that some people sincerely believe that God used a literary construct of one week to explain creation to a technologically primitive people. I believe that. I don't believe the Israelites needed to know how God created, merely that He created. If we subsequently find out details that inform us about the "how" then fine.

If science and God ever conflict, I choose God (in reality this never happens, almost by definition; though some scientists are in insistent conflict with God). Why do you insist I don't?

We had many posts,

You never answered half of my questions, yet I attempted to answer all of yours. Then you had a long page of questions and ended up saying 'these should be easy' of which you barely acknowledged. I could tell you hoped I would have no answers, how nice.

"God used a literary construct of one week to explain creation to a technologically primitive people" On what basis do you believe that?

Does the text itself indicate that? (and by text I mean all across scripture)

If the text doesn't suggest it then you are getting this idea from outside of scripture. Outside of scripture are the words of men.
Yet you say you choose God.
If you choose God then why are you rejecting his words?
Exodus 20
1. And God spoke all these words:
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
God may have spoken the words to the ancient Israelite's, but the Old Testament is still part of scripture.

What is to stop me extending this idea to the New Testament?

Maybe God used a literary construct to tell Matthew, Mark, Luke and John about the virgin birth, death and resurrection of Christ?
Maybe Jesus didn't literally die and raise to life, that it really meant something else because they were "technologically primitive people"

So what is to stop me saying this is a literary construct?
“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.”Mark 16:6
Why should I accept this part of the Bible as literal and not the other part?

John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
Jesus didn't seem to have an issue with what Mosses wrote.

If the entire Bible is just a literary construct then I can make it say whatever I would like it to say and the entire thing becomes meaningless.

 

[Derek1111]

You never answered half of my questions, yet I attempted to answer all of yours. Then you had a long page of questions and ended up saying 'these should be easy' of which you barely acknowledged. I could tell you hoped I would have no answers, how nice.

You seem to impute motives to people you don't know. You specifically said you weren't interested in debate - which is quite an odd position to take on a discussion board - so presumably you're just here to "teach". Well, sorry, but that's not how it works. I was asking questions of you to see if you had answers. If you did, your position would have had integrity. But I don't think you did have answers. You just said that you didn't know on what day the earth was created, not how old it was, but it wasn't old. I just don't know where you got that from, but if you think that's an answer, then I confess I don't understand it. So I'm not aiming to be nice, or not nice; just inqusitive.

I don't remember not answering your questions so will try below.

On what basis do you believe that?

This website is short, and explains nicely (and with many reasons I agree with). Biblical Reasons to Doubt the Creation Days Were 24-Hour Periods You can disagree with it, but I think it shows that believing in an old earth is not surrender to liberalism, but a robust defense of the integrity of Scripture.

What is to stop me extending this idea to the New Testament?

Maybe God used a literary construct to tell Matthew, Mark, Luke and John about the virgin birth, death and resurrection of Christ?
Maybe Jesus didn't literally die and raise to life, that it really meant something else because they were "technologically primitive people"

Well ... this is just confusing. Why are you arguing what God told the disciples about the life of Jesus? Did they not walk with Jesus? Did they not talk with Jesus? Did they not witness His works? Of course. And John 21v25 shows this. Being a first-hand witness to historical events is really not the same as God explaining what happened before you were on the scene.

If the entire Bible is just a literary construct then I can make it say whatever I would like it to say and the entire thing becomes meaningless.

Well see above. The Bible is a mixture of genres of literature - poetry, history, prophecy, apocalypse - as you know. If you read history the same way you read poetry, you will miss the heart of God's message; the same in reverse. I'm merely saying that I believe God explained prehistory to technologically primitive people in a way they could understand it. He explained things in a way that was comprehensible, because what mattered was that He authored creation, not whether He created in six days or six weeks or six billion years. It's all the same to God.

 

[The Barbarian]

Bible doesn’t teach evolution, true.

And yet we see it happening constantly around us. BTW, the Bible doesn't teach about radioactive decay, genetics, and many other things that are facts.

The question is, how you can be christian and believe in evolution...

Honesty. If one is honest, one will admit that there is a great deal of evidence for common descent of living things.

I never get those people, like what is the logic there?

A willingness to face facts.