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Why I don't believe in evolution...

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Humble_Disciple, Aug 3, 2021.

  1. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    But being a fallible human, you can be wrong, as can the people who have rejected God's plain word that one is justified by works and faith alike.

    Trust in God. Not so much in people who tell you that they can decide what part of God's word is true and what part isn't.
     
  2. Sam Saved by Grace

    Sam Saved by Grace All of salvation is God's doing

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    "...God's plain word that one is justified by faith and works alike."

    Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not by works, so that no one may boast

    Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    Romans 4:5 - But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

    Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

    John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


    The Bible doesn't contradict itself. When James says, "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.", you have one outlier verse which seems to go against the entire New Testament. So what do we do? Do we cling to the outlier, ignoring the rest of the New Testament, because it is seemingly convenient in providing cover for an unbiblical mindset? Of course not. You have to consider it in context. Notice James says, "You see...". What preceded James 2:24? An exposition of how faith produces works.

    But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. James 2:18

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

    If you are on the deck of the Titanic, and the ship is sinking, and someone tells you to abandon ship into a lifeboat while a spot can be had, so that you will be saved, and otherwise you will surely perish, and you respond with verbal affirmation, "Yes, yes, yes. I believe. I do believe that.", but you keep your damned soul parked right there on the deck of that big, bright, safe looking ship, daring not to venture into the dark, frightening waters in a small, rickety lifeboat, what can be said of your supposed belief? That you didn't really have any.

    It is the same with salvation. Seed in good soil always bears fruit. Saving faith always produces good fruit. The Lord says, "By their fruits, you will know them."

    There is such harmony in the Bible. When you let scripture interpret scripture, only then do you see. It is like looking at a painting. You can zoom in on something, such as a toe, and think you see a pig. But if you zoom out, you see it is a human being. And then all parts have their proper meaning. In context. One thing all cults have in common is the way they begin with presuppositions, take whichever verses they like, ripping them completely out of context and eisegeting into them whatever fits those presuppositions, and then force interpret all other verses through the false light they themselves created. It is dishonest and damning.

    Now your error has been dealt it's death blow.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  3. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    I get the attempt. All your prooftexting is a vain effort to show us that God doesn't mean what He so plainly says in the Bible:

    James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

    This is why Martin Luther wanted to remove the Book of James from the Bible. He correctly argued that it contradicted his new doctrine of "faith alone." He was honest about it.

    Jesus, in Matthew 25, clearly states that He will decide who will spend eternity with Him, and who will spend it with the Devil, according to their works. But you are unwilling to believe Him.

    Now your error has been dealt it's death blow:
    James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


    Sola fide is, as James makes clear, dead. Your rickety man-made lifeboat is inadequate for the purpose. Let it be as God says.

     
  4. Sam Saved by Grace

    Sam Saved by Grace All of salvation is God's doing

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    And all you do is continue spouting that one verse. Why? Because that's all you can do, that's why. Here, I have one:

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not by works, so that no one may boast Ephesians 2:8-9

    I have nothing to do with Martin Luther, so you can quit bringing him up. I don't agree with Lutheran theology. I reject the Lutheran view of the sacraments as well as several other doctrines. I really couldn't care less about that argument of yours. Luther was more free grace in his theology. A lot of people are like that today. To them, saying that faith produces works necessarily is a back door approach to making the gospel about works. Luther was not perfect in his theology, but God used him for His purpose.

    A tree that produces apples is an apple tree. This is a true statement. A Christian who produces good works is a true Christian. This is also a true statement. And that is what James was saying. But you put the cart before the horse. You would say that a tree can become an apple tree by producing apples. And that is false. It is NOT what James was saying. It is the root that produces the fruit. Someone who is dead in trespasses and sin can in no way produce any good work to merit salvation which is by grace alone through faith alone. As it is written, "he who is dead has ceased from all works". But it is God who quickens us while we are dead and makes us alive in Christ, justifying us through faith in Jesus Christ. If good works and faith were the producer of salvation, then grace would not be grace. It would be part owed, part grace. But we are not saved as payment, but because of grace. And as a new creation, we bear good fruit to God. No fruit, no new creation.

    Your doctrine isn't all too different from what the Mormons teach, in saying that man is "saved by grace, after all that we can do". One thing all theological cults have in common, is that they teach some variant of works salvation. But a clear reading of the Bible demonstrates the error, as I have aptly demonstrated.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  5. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    And Jesus telling you in Matthew 25 that your salvation depends on your works. And all the other verses that show you that faith and works will save you. You only accept half of it, for whatever reasons you have. But you're still halfway.

    Your doctrine isn't all that much different from gnostic teaching in saying that man is saved by knowing some esoteric truths, rather than by his works, as Jesus says.

    One thing many cults have in common, is that they teach some variant of "faith alone" salvation. But a clear reading of the Bible demonstrates the error, as Jesus has shown you.
     
  6. Sam Saved by Grace

    Sam Saved by Grace All of salvation is God's doing

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    And now he resorts to strawman tactics.

    Never have I said it wasn't necessary to have works. I teach what the Bible teaches - including the Lord Jesus: that necessary works flow necessarily when one has saving faith in Christ. It does NOT mean that we must work for our salvation.

    Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing John 15:4-5

    For he who has died has been freed from sin. Romans 6:7

    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

    Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard...For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Hebrews 4:1-2/10

    We do NOT work for our salvation. That is a damnable LIE. We come to Christ in faith. (John 6:44) We are born again (john 3:3), saved by grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9), and receive a new nature (Ephesians 4:24). Because we have a new nature, we act in accordance with that new nature (James 2:18). Those who do not produce good works have not been born again (1 John 3:9).

    A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14

    I cannot make the blind see. Only God can do that. But I have presented the gospel. The truth is that we are all born condemned. Everyone is destined to hell. Only those who turn from their sin, and put all their trust in Christ, calling on the name of Jesus and resting in His finished work on the cross, will be saved. Praying the rosary will not save you. Obeying the pope will not save you. Good works will not save you. Religion will not save you. Mary will not save you. Muhammad will not save you. Allah will not save you. There is ONE NAME...only ONE, that will save you. And that's the NAME of JESUS. Only Jesus Christ can save you, free you from sin, and give you a new nature. One cannot be restored to the Father any other way. And anyone who rejects this gospel, let him be accursed.
     
  7. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    And we can't faith our way to salvation. Both faith and works are a gift of God, as Paul says. It comes from something much deeper and more Christlike. But the fact remains; faith alone will not save you. His grace makes it possible for you.

    1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    You are justified by faith and works alike. But that's not what saves you. Loving God and loving your fellow man will save you. As Jesus says, everything else depends on those two commandments. Make sure you have love for God and for your neighbor, and the rest will take care of itself.

    "...and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and not have charity, I am nothing."

    That ends any possible way to argue for "sola fide."
     
  8. J_B_

    J_B_ Well-Known Member

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    There have been so many "why I don't believe evolution" threads that I don't remember which ones I've replied to, sighed and skipped over, etc.

    It does seem, though, there may be some value in continuing to make an occasional post if for nothing else, to make the following point: For as long as these threads are created, someone like @The Barbarian will be around to refute your reasons ... and will likely be very skilled at doing so.

    In the end, the 'reasons' for taking one side or the other are, IMHO, much deeper than the superficial issues most often discussed here, and I think it's good practice (if you're going to chase these perennial debates) to 'know thyself'.
     
  9. Sam Saved by Grace

    Sam Saved by Grace All of salvation is God's doing

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    You say you can't faith your way to heaven. But the Bible says you can. When the faith is true faith. True faith always produces good works. True faith always endures. That is how we know true faith from false faith.

    Good seed, when it finds good soil, brings forth a good crop. The seed is the Word of God and if it is received in faith, good fruit will abound. And we will know it is received in faith if it produces good fruit. If it does not produce good fruit, it has not been received in faith. Mental agreement, perhaps. But not true, saving faith, believing from the heart unto righteousness.

    You see then that a good tree is not a good tree because of it's root only, but also because of it's fruit. Good fruit is what makes a good tree a good tree. But do not make the mistake of saying that the fruit produces the tree - or that the tree is caused by the fruit. Good fruit grows from a good tree necessarily. Show your faith by your works. Cause and effect. The cause of salvation is receiving the Word in faith, a seed in good soil, and the effect of salvation is good works. The two work together and are inseparable.

    Except he hasn't refuted anything.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  10. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    We've refuted plenty here. You began to talk about the cambrian explosion but that didn't go particularly far. What points do you think you've raised that haven't been refuted?
     
  11. Sam Saved by Grace

    Sam Saved by Grace All of salvation is God's doing

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    I haven't raised many points. I continually proclaim that the Word of God is the ultimate truth and is completely inerrant in every regard. You will never refute that, because that is the truth of all truths.

    The Bible is the Word of God, and science is the word of man. That is not to say that there isn't any truth to science - there is. But it is not inerrant. The Bible is. And where the Bible and science clash, we of course must defer to the Bible.

    As for the Cambrian, my overall point still stands - that even science demonstrates that the major phyla of all complex life, relative to the age of the Earth, arrived and diverged with astonishing suddenness. Now that, sir, is a fact. You can debate what constitutes complex life until you are blue in the face. You can spin around in circles arguing that there were pre-Cambrian fossils (which I never denied), but nothing you post can change the facts.

    Not that I necessarily believe that such observations are without error. Science corrects itself over time - it is a discipline of man and isn't perfect. In areas where there is conflict with God's Word, which is perfect, I do not change my interpretation of God's Word. I change my interpretation of science.
     
  12. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    One day the anti-evolution crowd will have a claim to make. Maybe. I suppose I'll continue waiting then.

    Me walking to the store was a relatively sudden occurance with respect to the 12+ billion years old universe, though this isn't really an argument against my ability to walk places. Where does the actual argument against evolution come into play?

    If you understand that precambrian precursors to the cambrian have been found, then why does your statement matter?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  13. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Well, let's see how that lines up with God's word...

    1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

    God says that's wrong. Sorry.
     
  14. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Complex metazoans, including the early members of phyla found in the Cambrian, evolved in the Ediacaran. It seems odd to declare that 94 million years is "astonishingly sudden.

    The major evolutionary advance in the Cambrian was the evolution of fully-formed exoskeletons. Partially-formed exoskeletons evolved in the Ediacaran. Seems like a long time to me. Given that we've observed a new digestive organ evolve in a few decades, exoskeletons seem to have taken a lot of time, even on geological scales.

    Yeah, stuff like "complex" "sudden" and so on, are pretty flexible, although calling 94 million years, "sudden" seems like pushing it, to me.

    In fact, there were animals as chemical analysis now shows. And some of the supposedly "sudden" phyla of the Cambrian turn out to have been much older than previously thought.

    A fish-like thing appeared among the annelids one day.
    It hadn't any parapods nor setae to display.
    It hadn't any eyes nor jaws, nor ventral nervous cord,
    But it had a lot of gill slits and it had a notochord.

    Chorus:
    It's a long way from Amphioxus. It's a long way to us.
    It's a long way from Amphioxus to the meanest human cuss.
    Well, it's goodbye to fins and gill slits, and it's welcome lungs and hair!
    It's a long, long way from Amphioxus, but we all came from there.

    Fight Song, U. of Ediacara (Tom Hinton)
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  15. J_B_

    J_B_ Well-Known Member

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    First, my apologies for using a word that has different shades of meaning. 'Refute', as I meant it, is to oppose someone in debate. But it can also mean to show something false, which is how you appear to have taken it. Regardless, You seem to have passed by my point.

    But before I say more, let me be clear that I don't agree with the entirety of evolution, and I'm speaking here of evolution as a general field rather than a specific theory. Not that my opinion matters much since I'm not a biologist, but there it is. Therefore, as we dig for what I was after, hopefully we can do it on somewhat friendly terms rather than as adversaries.

    What I was getting at, then, is that I doubt the root of the issue here has much to do with the Cambrian explosion. That's just a symptom and you're likely to be talking past each other until a deeper issue is addressed. It's just a guess at this point, but as an example it's common for there to be significant differences in views of authority, i.e. scriptural authority and scientific authority - what those things mean, where they come from, how they are communicated, etc.

    If you continue to disagree on those deeper issues, this will never go anywhere. You may never agree on that topic, but if you don't at least understand the other's position, you're not even having a conversation. You'll never learn to appreciate the logic of your opponent's argument. You're just talking at each other.
     
  16. Sam Saved by Grace

    Sam Saved by Grace All of salvation is God's doing

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    You are correct. This is an issue of the heart.

    The Bible is completely inerrant. It is the ultimate authority, and all other truth is subordinate to Bible truth. Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.". Therefore, all other truths must be understood in light of the revelation of God's Word, and not the other way around. We see that God created the Earth in six days. God spoke, and there was light. Adam and Eve were real people, and death did not come into existence until sin. Everything described in the creation account happened as it is described.

    And the greatest truth of all is that God Himself walked this earth as a man. And He bore upon Himself the sins of His people, and on the third day, He rose again. These are all facts, and are true regardless of the theories and observations of fallen men.

    There are those who believe the Word of God above all else. We walk by faith and not by sight, as we know appearances can be deceiving. And there are others who take the theories and observations of mere men and establish them as undeniable truth, according to which they reinterpret scripture, even to the point of denying biblical inerrancy.

    The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

    [​IMG]

    So many countless people have taken comfort in such lies, believing that science has proven the Bible false. They swallow the lie because it frees them to enjoy the unrighteousness they love, continuing in idolatry and self-worship, and all manner of wickedness. So because they hate the truth, and will not be parted from sin, they are sent a most convincing lie, and one they love, believing themselves liberated. It is written, however, that when they say "peace and safety", sudden destruction will come upon them. But those who love and cherish Christ, holding ever fast to Him, would never exchange the truth of God for a lie.
     
  17. J_B_

    J_B_ Well-Known Member

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    I agree with some of what you said, but much of it is unrelated to what I was discussing and isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you. If you want to discuss methods of evangelism, we probably need a different thread.

    One thing that needs to be put to the side is the idea of truth, and another is the 6-day creation. Those aren't really issues pertaining to evolution per se. I take Genesis as history and accept it as true. Given that view, there are contradictions between Genesis and current scientific positions on geological age and evolutionary time spans. But evolution makes no claims regarding the origins of life, and the currently accepted mechanisms have no stipulations regarding time. Again, if those are issues you want to discuss, maybe a different thread. The title of this thread regards evolution, I took it to mean that's what was to be discussed, and it would be easier to confine ourselves to that topic.

    But, as I said, there are deeper issues to settle first. Regarding truth, while scientists hope theories are correct, there is no explicit scientific claim to truth. The scientific method is not about truth, but about mathematical certainty. In brief, science is always an approximation - a model - and it is known it isn't 100% true. I happen to be working on an engineering problem right now where the current method is know to be a kluge, but it gets the job done. That sticks in my craw, and I hope to replace it with something more physics-based. IMHO, evolution is a similar kluge whose usefulness can't be denied. While biologists give the evolutionary model much more credit than I do, they aren't claiming it's "truth", so we should stop accusing them of that. It's not helpful.
     
  18. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    The major problem with Biblical discussions is that so many people confuse their own words with those of God.

    There's a difference between the observed phenomenon of evolution and the theory of evolution. We see allele frequency changes in populations constantly. Occasionally, we see a new structure or function evolve in a population. Very occasionally, we see a new species evolve.

    Evolutionary theory, on the other hand, explains why we see this happening. The reason evolutionary theory is accepted by the vast majority of biologists, is that it has numerous verified predictions. Such verifications are essential for a theory to be considered true.
     
  19. J_B_

    J_B_ Well-Known Member

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    It's true of all science that observation of the effect is different from explanation of the cause. And I'm aware changes in allele frequency are often observed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Not at all since He specifically told everyone how and when the earth was created. It’s not His fault that some don’t believe Him.
     
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