Why I don't believe in Calvinism.

[Bible Highlighter]

Look at the oldest example with Eve. God knew she would disobey him yet still set that stipulation.

I don't get what you are trying to say. Are you trying to prove Calvinism by such a statement or disprove Calvinism by such a statement? Please elaborate in more detail.

 

[Albion]

This implies that God chose Peter correctly because Peter actually did good for God's kingdom and he was not utterly useless (producing no fruit whatsoever).

Useful? That isn't merit, not goodness deserving of salvation.

According to Calvinism, God elects based on no conditions whatsoever. But His Word says He elects according to His future foreknowledge (Which implies that there is something in the future that is swaying God's decision in choosing).

God's foreknowledge. Yes. However, you are still presuming that he sees merit in the person and elects accordingly. That is not what the verses say.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Useful? That isn't merit, not goodness deserving of salvation.

Jesus says you have more value than many sparrows.

God's foreknowledge. Yes. However, you are still presuming that he sees merit in the person and elects accordingly. That is not what the verses say.

Put on your detective cap. Think. What motivation is there of God to choose somebody based on His knowledge of the future if there was no condition in the individual whatsoever?

 

[Dave L]

In short, I don't believe in Calvinism because I see free will is taught in the Bible.
We are given commands, and men have disobeyed them not because God wanted them to, but because they chose to disobey. Also, why have a judgment if God was the one who placed them there and they had no choice to be there?

You have only 3 choices in salvation. God alone saves people and gets the glory (Calvinism/Augustinianism).

You save yourself with God's help and split the glory (Arminianism/Semipelagianism).

Or you save yourself without God's help and get all the glory (Pelagianism/Socinianism).

 

[Not David]

You have only 3 choices in salvation. God alone saves people and gets the glory (Calvinism/Augustinianism).

You save yourself with God's help and split the glory (Arminianism/Semipelagianism).

Or you save yourself without God's help and get all the glory (Pelagianism/Socinianism).

Or God saves people but allows people to choose to be saved and he gets all the glory. (Not that he needs it)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Look at the oldest example with Eve. God knew she would disobey him yet still set that stipulation.

So you believe God's foreknowledge of Adam and Eve disobeying God is proof of Calvinism? If so, that doesn't make any sense. God allowing to let something to pass does not mean that they did not have free will to act to the contrary. Why would God bother to give them a command if it was not possible for them to obey? Why would there be two trees (two choices)? Why did God punish them if it was a part of his desire of decreed will that they sin? Can God agree with sin? Surely not. God is holy. That is why Calvinism fails.

 

[Albion]

Jesus says you have more value than many sparrows.

How many sparrows are given eternal life?

Put on your detective cap. Think. What motivation is there of God to choose somebody based on His knowledge of the future if there was no condition in the individual whatsoever?

There are two errors in that statement.

1. You are asking for speculation, guesswork, presumptions. That is exactly what Bible-believers charge the goofier religions with doing. We cannot fall into that ourselves.

2. You are assuming that we must know ON WHAT BASIS God makes His decisions. There is no reason for us to do that, nor are we capable of doing it correctly. In Scripture, He revealed to us mortals what it is that he wants us to know and which we need to know..

 

[Dave L]

Or God saves people but allows people to choose to be saved and he gets all the glory. (Not that he needs it)

No, if you choose salvation, you get 1/2 the glory. Those who do not choose get 0.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have only 3 choices in salvation. God alone saves people and gets the glory (Calvinism/Augustinianism).

You save yourself with God's help and split the glory (Arminianism/Semipelagianism).

Or you save yourself without God's help and get all the glory (Pelagianism/Socinianism).

You have things confused. God does not get the glory by forcing some to believe and forcing others to not believe. No real world example will be able to defend such a viewpoint using Basic Morality 101.

In the real world, we know that when a person cooperates with their rescuer (like grabbing on to a rope to be pulled up off a cliff, or holding on to a life preserver in the water) does not equate with the person being rescued getting the glory. Most people praise the rescuer and not the person being rescued.

 

[Albion]

No, if you choose salvation, you get 1/2 the glory. Those who do not choose get 0.

Logically speaking, this would be true. Or at least they deserve SOME of the glory/credit.

 

[Dave L]

You have things confused. God does not get the glory by forcing some to believe and forcing others to not believe. No real world example will be able to defend your viewpoint here on Basic Morality 101.

In the real world, we know that when a person cooperates with their rescuer (like grabbing on to a rope to be pulled up off a cliff, or holding on to a life preserver in the water) does not equate with the person being rescued getting the glory. Most people praise the rescuer and not the person being rescued.

You believe God forces people to choose him or he will torture them forever = you make him out to be a bully unless people "say uncle".

 

[Not David]

You have things confused. God does not get the glory by forcing some to believe and forcing others to not believe. No real world example will be able to defend such a viewpoint using Basic Morality 101.

In the real world, we know that when a person cooperates with their rescuer (like grabbing on to a rope to be pulled up off a cliff, or holding on to a life preserver in the water) does not equate with the person being rescued getting the glory. Most people praise the rescuer and not the person being rescued.

I agree, imagine being saved by the medics but thinking you share half of the glory because you followed his instructions. It's just stupid.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How many sparrows are given eternal life?

I don't see what that has to do with the point I made that you have value more than many sparrows. Do you just like bury that truth or something? Do you believe you don't have more value than many sparrows? If so, then you would be in contradiction to the words of Jesus.

There are two errors in that statement.

1. You are asking for speculation, guesswork, presumptions. That is exactly what Bible-believers charge the goofier religions with doing. We cannot fall into that ourselves.

2. You are assuming that we must know ON WHAT BASIS God makes His decisions. There is no reason for us to do that, nor are we capable of doing it correctly. In Scripture, He revealed to us mortals what it is that he wants us to know and which we need to know..

Again, your belief is illogical by what I have pointed out so far. There is no answer that you can give that would satisfy as to why God would elect or choose someone based on his future foreknowledge. God according to Calvinism does not do that, but He chooses based on no conditions whatsoever (of which we see nothing about in Scripture). In fact, Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 PROVES that God elects based on his future foreknowledge of what men will do. These individuals are not written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world because God knows they will worship the beast in the future.

 

[Dave L]

I agree, imagine being saved by the medics but thinking you share half of the glory because you followed his instructions. It's just stupid.

This is not an example. It is more like a person in a coma who will starve unless fed intravenously. So a good Samaritan pays the bill and the guy recovers. Forever thankful and doing the same for others.

 

[Not David]

This is not an example. It is more like a person in a coma who will starve unless fed intravenously. So a good Samaritan pays the bill and the guy recovers. Forever thankful and doing the same for others.

Or the guy decides to leave and being ungrateful

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You believe God forces people to choose him or he will torture them forever = you make him out to be a bully unless people "say uncle".

I don't believe in Purgatory. I am a Trinitarian Sola Scriptura Christian who believes in Dualistic Conditional Immortality.

To learn more about Dualistic Conditional Immortality, check out this thread here:

The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

 

[Albion]

I agree, imagine being saved by the medics but thinking you share half of the glory because you followed his instructions. It's just stupid.

But in all fairness, that scenario IS NOT parallel to what was argued earlier about the merits of the person justifying his salvation, etc.

 

[Not David]

Or the guy decides to leave and being ungrateful

Or even the man thinks because he stayed there and ate he deserves half of the credit.

 

[Not David]

But in all fairness, that scenario IS NOT parallel to what was argued earlier about the merits of the person justifying his salvation, etc.

I was arguing cooperation with God does not mean you earn half of the credit.

 

[Albion]

I don't believe in Purgatory.

Speaking of being confused, Purgatory is not Hell.