Why I don't believe in Calvinism.

[Elove]

So you agree with him? I would like to know if this is something that people really believe or is this rare?

It's not that rare. In fact during the reformation when much of Europe was breaking from the Roman Catholic Church this is what everyone except Catholics believed. It wasn't until the 1800s that Evangelicals began to push the idea that we had to "make a decision for Christ" and so forth. So now it is not as popular as the Evangelical movement. They did keep many old hymn like Amazing Grace... I once was lost but now am found. That is He found us not the other way around. If I have to repent and ask God to forgive me, Jesus to be Lord of my life and save me, then there is at least a spark of good in me. That's not what the Bible teaches. Not only that but it wouldnt be full grace. However if I was chosen and receive the Holy Spirit in order to see the light and confess Jesus then God gets all the glory and I am just a humble servant saved by Grace for real

If you go back to the beginning of the 6th page of this thread JM has posted extensive scripture and commentary on the doctrines of grace for a couple of pages in a row. John MacAuthur is a great preacher you can find on YouTube he has a program Grace to You. I am Primitive Baptist myself. I like to listen to preachers on primitivebaptist.com. Particularly Sonny Pyles.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

It's not that rare. In fact during the reformation when much of Europe was breaking from the Roman Catholic Church this is what everyone except Catholics believed. It wasn't until the 1800s that Evangelicals began to push the idea that we had to "make a decision for Christ" and so forth. So now it is not as popular as the Evangelical movement. They did keep many old hymn like Amazing Grace... I once was lost but now am found. That is He found us not the other way around. If I have to repent and ask God to forgive me, Jesus to be Lord of my life and save me, then there is at least a spark of good in me. That's not what the Bible teaches. Not only that but it wouldnt be full grace. However if I was chosen and receive the Holy Spirit in order to see the light and confess Jesus then God gets all the glory and I am just a humble servant saved by Grace for real

If you go back to the beginning of the 6th page of this thread JM has posted extensive scripture and commentary on the doctrines of grace for a couple of pages in a row. John MacAuthur is a great preacher you can find on YouTube he has a program Grace to You. I am Primitive Baptist myself. I like to listen to preachers on primitivebaptist.com. Particularly Sonny Pyles.

Man that just doesn’t seem fair at all that some just never get a chance. It’s hard for me to imagine God in that way.

 

[Elove]

Man that just doesn’t seem fair at all that some just never get a chance. It’s hard for me to imagine God in that way.

Like I said fair has nothing to do with it. What would be fair is that none are redeemed because we are all depraved, evil and wicked sinners who care nothing about the very one who created us and He never sent His beloved Son to be a sacrifice in spite of this. Or to our mind it's not fair that he made us this way and should just forgive everyone. But the entire chapter of Roman's 9 particularly verses 18-21 bear out what I just said.

 

[Sam91]

I just explained that Ephesians 1:5 tells us that we were predestined before the foundation of the world according to His good pleasure. The New Testament never says that we chose but that He chose. Never says that we adopted but He adopted. People want it to be fair because we want Him to think like us but He doesn't. Fair has nothing to do with it.
Is it fair that David was chosen and was "the apple of God's eye" after all he did? Did Paul choose God or did God strike Him blind on the road to Damascus and drag him against his will, kicking and screaming to his belief. God chose Abraham and therefore the entire nation of Israel. This is not a new concept God has always chosen his people.

Paul was zealous for God and thought he was defending against heresy before God blinded him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I just explained that Ephesians 1:5 tells us that we were predestined before the foundation of the world according to His good pleasure. The New Testament never says that we chose but that He chose. Never says that we adopted but He adopted. People want it to be fair because we want Him to think like us but He doesn't. Fair has nothing to do with it.
Is it fair that David was chosen and was "the apple of God's eye" after all he did? Did Paul choose God or did God strike Him blind on the road to Damascus and drag him against his will, kicking and screaming to his belief. God chose Abraham and therefore the entire nation of Israel. This is not a new concept God has always chosen his people.

Right, and God's chosen people (Israel) rejected their own Messiah (nationally speaking of course). Granted, they will come back around, but the point here is that just because you are chosen by God, does not mean one is saved.

1 Peter 1:1-2 says God elects based on his future foreknowledge and He does not elect based on no conditions whatsoever (i.e. unconditional election). This is confirmed by Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. God in his future foreknowledge knew those people in the future who would worship the beast, and as a result, their names were not written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. So God elects based on what He knows man is going to do and He does not elect man for no good reason or based on some kind of unfairness as you suggest (Making God out to be unjust or unfair).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God knows what we are going to do with our free will. That's how we can be chosen. We don't know it but he knew us before we were even conceived.

Yes. God elects based on His future foreknowledge (See: 1 Peter 1:1-2). This is not Calvinism (i.e. Unconditional Election or an election based on no conditions), but is an election based on what God knows we are going to do.

I believe in Prevenient Grace.

Click on the spoiler button to learn more:

Spoiler

I believe in Prevenient Grace. That God draws ALL men unto himself and that he gives them all an opportunity or opportunities to see the truth of the gospel to accept it of their own free will. Without this drawing or enlightenment by God, a person cannot understand the gospel (of which we see involving the first seed in the parable of the sower). But God lights every man that comes into the world. So every man (generally speaking) will know of the gospel.

Prevenient Grace Verses:

John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

John 12:32 says,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

John 16:8-11 says,
8 “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

Romans 2:4 says,
“Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

Titus 2:11 says,
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 says,
3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 says,
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

2 Peter 3:9 which states that God “is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance.”

1 John 2:2 says,
“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (Also see John 1:29 - the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world).

Hebrews 2:9 essentially says,
"Jesus tasted death for everyone."

Matthew 13:15 says,
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Matthew 23:37 (NLT) says,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live”.

Acts of the Apostles 17:27 says, “he be not far from every one of us”

Besides those who will worship the beast in the future (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8), I believe God gives most of all people opportunities to accept Him or to reject Him under His enlightenment to see the gospel in His timing. God choose the best time for them to know the truth. If they accept or reject the truth is ultimately up to them. It has to be this way because otherwise God would not be judging mankind fairly as a whole. The whole point of the judgment is that they were rejecting God's ways and it is not about God not choosing them to be saved (i.e. God forcing some to be saved, and forcing others to not be saved).

 

[Elove]

Yes. God elects based on His future foreknowledge (See: 1 Peter 1:1-2). This is not Calvinism (i.e. Unconditional Election or an election based on no conditions), but is an election based on what God knows we are going to do.

I believe in Prevenient Grace.

Click on the spoiler button to learn more:

Spoiler

I believe in Prevenient Grace. That God draws ALL men unto himself and that he gives them all an opportunity or opportunities to see the truth of the gospel to accept it of their own free will. Without this drawing or enlightenment by God, a person cannot understand the gospel (of which we see involving the first seed in the parable of the sower). But God lights every man that comes into the world. So every man (generally speaking) will know of the gospel.

Prevenient Grace Verses:

John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

John 12:32 says,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

John 16:8-11 says,
8 “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

Romans 2:4 says,
“Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

Titus 2:11 says,
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 says,
3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 says,
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

2 Peter 3:9 which states that God “is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance.”

1 John 2:2 says,
“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (Also see John 1:29 - the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world).

Hebrews 2:9 essentially says,
"Jesus tasted death for everyone."

Matthew 13:15 says,
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Matthew 23:37 (NLT) says,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live”.

Acts of the Apostles 17:27 says, “he be not far from every one of us”

Besides those who will worship the beast in the future (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8), I believe God gives most of all people opportunities to accept Him or to reject Him under His enlightenment to see the gospel in His timing. God choose the best time for them to know the truth. If they accept or reject the truth is ultimately up to them. It has to be this way because otherwise God would not be judging mankind fairly as a whole. The whole point of the judgment is that they were rejecting God's ways and it is not about God not choosing them to be saved (i.e. God forcing some to be saved, and forcing others to not be saved).

You added a little something there it just says foreknowledge. No future there in my Bible. However there is predestination and even adoption "according to the good pleasure of His will" when Paul in Ephesians 1:5 is giving his greeting. Most of you have read these verses but you insist on adding meaning to them because you want God to be fair and think as you do. Have you not learned to accept his word? I can quote verses all day as JM has from pages 6-7 like all that the Father giver me shall come to me...." but it will do no good you change the meaning by actually adding words to the verse. And the Prevenient Grace Verses all can most all be used to prove a Universal atonement which would include the wicked and unbelieving

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You added a little something there it just says foreknowledge. No future there in my Bible. However there is predestination and even adoption "according to the good pleasure of His will" when Paul in Ephesians 1:5 is giving his greeting. Most of you have read these verses but you insist on adding meaning to them because you want God to be fair and think as you do. Have you not learned to accept his word? I can quote verses all day as JM has from pages 6-7 like all that the Father giver me shall come to me...." but it will do no good you change the meaning by actually adding words to the verse

Nope. It is what my Bible says.

1 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.” (1 Peter 1:1-2).

Notice verse 2. It says they were elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Foreknowledge means future knowledge.

Foreknowledge definition according to the dictionary:

“knowledge of something before it exists or happens; prescience.​

Again, this confirmed if you were to read Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8.

 

[Elove]

Nope. It is what my Bible says.

1 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.” (1 Peter 1:1-2).

Notice verse 2. It says they were elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Foreknowledge means future knowledge.

Foreknowledge definition according to the dictionary:

“knowledge of something before it exists or happens; prescience.​

Again, this confirmed if you were to read Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8.

It doesn't say what that foreknowledge is does it? You assume that it is that they would "accept Christ." seems more plausible, especially with Eph. 1:5 that He elects for His own reasons and not what people assume He does. The verse is simply saying He knew them ahead of time. There is no spark of good in us the Bible makes that painfully clear. So when God looked down through time all He seen was wicked sinners. He predestined and adopted according to His good pleasure Ephesians 1:5 tells us. All your verse in 1 Peter says is foreknowledge. Just means He knew His elect before the foundation of the world not that they were good. You can break out the dictionary and define foreknowledge but it still doesn't put future in that verse. Why put future before foreknowledge? My Bible doesn't say "future foreknowledge"

 

[Elove]

It doesn't say what that foreknowledge is does it? You assume that it is that they would "accept Christ." seems more plausible, especially with Eph. 1:5 that He elects for His own reasons and not what people assume He does. The verse is simply saying He knew them ahead of time. There is no spark of good in us the Bible makes that painfully clear. So when God looked down through time all He seen was wicked sinners. He predestined and adopted according to His good pleasure Ephesians 1:5 tells us. All your verse in 1 Peter says is foreknowledge. Just means He knew His elect before the foundation of the world not that they were good. You can break out the dictionary and define foreknowledge but it still doesn't put future in that verse. Why put future before foreknowledge? My Bible doesn't say "future foreknowledge"

 

[Elove]

Again, this confirmed if you were to read Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8.
Yes this confirms that some vessels are for honor and some for dishonor. Written in the book of life before the world was created. But the why my friend is not given here in Rev. or in your 1 Peter 1:2. However it is plain as day in Ephesians 1. Romans 9 explains it better than I ever can. If people reject the clear meaning of that entire chapter which explains it repeatedly and in detail with no doubt as to what exactly it is talking about then I will never convince them.
Honestly it's like trying to convince someone that they have not, no matter how good and close to God they are, achieved holy perfection. Paul's struggle in Roman's 7 means absolutely nothing to them

 

[Johan_1988]

So basically some people never had a chance to begin with is what your saying scripture says?

Salvation of a person is something God the Father chooses. Jesus said:
"John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
"John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Otherwise anybody can say the sinners prayer and be saved and this is why it doesn't happen.

Of-course that does not exempt us from preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to everybody since we do not know whom will be saved.

 

[Elove]

Salvation of a person is something God the Father chooses. Jesus said:
"John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
"John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Otherwise anybody can say the sinners prayer and be saved and this is why it doesn't happen.

Of-course that does not exempt us from preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to everybody since we do not know whom will be saved.

Amen brother but some don't accept that. They think they have had a part in it

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Salvation of a person is something God the Father chooses. Jesus said:
"John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
"John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Otherwise anybody can say the sinners prayer and be saved and this is why it doesn't happen.

Of-course that does not exempt us from preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to everybody since we do not know whom will be saved.

Is God all loving? If God is all loving how can God pick only certain people to be with him? That doesn’t sound even remotely like love let alone unconditional love.

 

[Der Alte]

Does God predestine some part of humanity to salvation and another part to damnation and there is nothing either group can do about it? Many arguments have been presented in support of this.
.....But, note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
.....This passage very much speaks to the issue of salvation, God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
. . .
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

 

[Elove]

Does God predestine some part of humanity to salvation and another part to damnation and there is nothing either group can do about it? Many arguments have been presented in support of this.
.....But, note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
.....This passage very much speaks to the issue of salvation, God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
. . .
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Huh? Maybe others are following you but I'm a little lost; are you for The doctrines of grace or against?

 

[Elove]

Is God all loving? If God is all loving how can God pick only certain people to be with him? That doesn’t sound even remotely like love let alone unconditional love.

No God is not all loving. Does he love or hate sin? Does he love the unrighteous? You have really gone off track. You're starting to sound like a Universalist. Like we just need to loooooovvve everybody. That's not in my Bible. Someone earlier said they believed God is love which is true but He is also wrath and vengence. One look at Revelations should make this clear but tiptoeing through the tulips liberal Christians want to take away the Lords divine judgement and fiery indignation. Well it won't work. The liberal church may accept more and more wickedness and evil worldliness in its ranks but God will judge all evil worldliness and prideful, I am my own savior, wickedness

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

No God is not all loving. Does he love or hate sin? Does he love the unrighteous? You have really gone off track. You're starting to sound like a Universalist. Like we just need to loooooovvve everybody. That's not in my Bible. Someone earlier said they believed God is love which is true but He is also wrath and vengence. One look at Revelations should make this clear but tiptoeing through the tulips liberal Christians want to take away the Lords divine judgement and fiery indignation. Well it won't work. The liberal church may accept more and more wickedness and evil worldliness in its ranks but God will judge all evil worldliness and prideful, I am my own savior, wickedness

So God doesn’t love everybody? Only those he chose as his “elect”?

 

[Der Alte]

Huh? Maybe others are following you but I'm a little lost; are you for The doctrines of grace or against?

I think Jeremiah 13:1-14 is an irrefutable scriptural argument against Calvinism.

 

[Elove]

I think Jeremiah 13:1-14 is an irrefutable scriptural argument against Calvinism.

Well it might hold more weight if it didn't refer to Israel in Old Testament times. I'll look a little closer. I hope those who adhere to Armenianism will take a look at the irrefutable evidence in the New Testament of the evidence of Calvinism