Why I don't believe in Calvinism.

[Radagast]

In short, I don't believe in Calvinism because I see free will is taught in the Bible.

Calvinists believe in free will (compatibilist free will, that is), so that's a really, really bad argument.

 

[Dave L]

True, all Calvinists will say they are part of the elect until one of them fall and then they say "they were never real Christians".

This is how it works. 3/4 of the soils were superficial believers who fell away. But the good soil (new birth) produced true believers that remained.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinists believe in free will (compatibilist free will, that is), so that's a really, really bad argument.

Sorry, I should have clarified. I know Calvinists believe we can make normal every day free will choices. I meant, they do not believe in "free will" in regards to choosing God, and or walking in obedience to Him.

Side Note:

I just now corrected my OP to reflect this fact.
Thanks for reminding me to clarify what I meant.

May God bless you this fine day.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is how it works. 3/4 of the soils were superficial believers who fell away. But the good soil (new birth) produced true believers that remained.

Some biblical facts to know about the Parable of the Sower:

#1. In the Parable of the Weeds, we learn that He that sows the good seed is the Son of man (Jesus) (Matthew 13:37).

#2. The seed is the word of God, i.e. the gospel message from the Scriptures (Luke 8:11) (For we are born of incorruptible seed, which is the word of God that endures forever, see: 1 Peter 1:23-25; Also the words of Jesus are spiritual and they are life - John 6:63).

#3. Only those individuals who are labeled as: "The seed by the way side" are those who when they have heard the word, Satan came immediately, and took away the word that was sown in their hearts. (Mark 4:15). This is not said of the other seeds who fell away.

#4. The alternative to the "seed by way side" to be saved is if they "believe" in order to be saved (Luke 8:12). For Luke 8:12 says, "lest they should believe and be saved."

#5. We see that the one of the other seeds (that fell away later) do believe. However, they only believe for a while. Meaning, they are only saved for a while. For Luke 8:13 says, "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

#6. What was the cause of their falling away? Was it because they never believed in the first place? No. It was in time of temptation that they fall away (Again see Luke 8:13) (Also see Hebrews 3:12-14).

#7. The plants sprung up (Which means they had life).
Luke 8:6-7 says, "And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. In other words, it choked the life out of it. 1 Timothy 6:10 says, "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." We are told to continue in His goodness, otherwise we will be cut off (See Romans 11:21-22).

#8. They had "no root" within themselves (Matthew 13:21) is that they did not have root in ALL of God's Word. They only believed the milk of the Word (the gospel message of salvation in Jesus - The entrance to salvation) (1 Corinthians 3:2) (1 Peter 2:2), but they did not move on to the meat of the Word (Which is discern between good and evil - Hebrews 5:14). They did not have a root in doing righteousness (Which is also by Jesus Christ - Romans 13:14, John 15:5). Proverbs 12:3 says, "A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved." For he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). This is the root, they did not have. It is the teachings of Jesus that tell us to live holy and righteous as a part of God's saving grace. Instead, they fell away due to specific sins like being offended by persecution and falling into desiring to be rich.

In short, they were not superficial fake believers, but they were believers who only believed for a while who fell away due to sin.

 

[Dave L]

Some biblical facts to know about the Parable of the Sower:

#1. In the Parable of the Weeds, we learn that He that sows the good seed is the Son of man (Jesus) (Matthew 13:37).

#2. The seed is the word of God, i.e. the gospel message from the Scriptures (Luke 8:11) (For we are born of incorruptible seed, which is the word of God that endures forever, see: 1 Peter 1:23-25; Also the words of Jesus are spiritual and they are life - John 6:63).

#3. Only those individuals who are labeled as: "The seed by the way side" are those who when they have heard the word, Satan came immediately, and took away the word that was sown in their hearts. (Mark 4:15). This is not said of the other seeds who fell away.

#4. The alternative to the "seed by way side" to be saved is if they "believe" in order to be saved (Luke 8:12). For Luke 8:12 says, "lest they should believe and be saved."

#5. We see that the one of the other seeds (that fell away later) do believe. However, they only believe for a while. Meaning, they are only saved for a while. For Luke 8:13 says, "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

#6. What was the cause of their falling away? Was it because they never believed in the first place? No. It was in time of temptation that they fall away (Again see Luke 8:13) (Also see Hebrews 3:12-14).

#7. The plants sprung up (Which means they had life).
Luke 8:6-7 says, "And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. In other words, it choked the life out of it. 1 Timothy 6:10 says, "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." We are told to continue in His goodness, otherwise we will be cut off (See Romans 11:21-22).

#8. They had "no root" within themselves (Matthew 13:21) is that they did not have root in ALL of God's Word. They only believed the milk of the Word (the gospel message of salvation in Jesus - The entrance to salvation) (1 Corinthians 3:2) (1 Peter 2:2), but they did not move on to the meat of the Word (Which is discern between good and evil - Hebrews 5:14). They did not have a root in doing righteousness (Which is also by Jesus Christ - Romans 13:14, John 15:5). Proverbs 12:3 says, "A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved." For he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). This is the root, they did not have. It is the teachings of Jesus that tell us to live holy and righteous as a part of God's saving grace. Instead, they fell away due to specific sins like being offended by persecution and falling into desiring to be rich.

In short, they were not superficial fake believers, but they were believers who only believed for a while who fell away due to sin.

Since there are none good, no not one, the good soil is the New Birth of which the Holy Spirit produces faith, one of his fruits.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Since there are none good, no not one, the good soil is the New Birth of which the Holy Spirit produces faith, one of his fruits.

I agree with that. I am not discounting that truth in my parable. But I believe a saint cooperates with the working of God within them. It is synergistic.

 

[Dave L]

I agree with that. I am not discounting that truth in my parable. But I believe God cooperates with the working of God within them. It is synergistic.

God cooperates? How can he cooperate when he creates cooperation in those whom he saves?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God cooperates? How can he cooperate when he creates cooperation in those whom he saves?

I meant to say "saint" and not God in that sentence. I corrected it.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Let me give you a few examples that not all Christians believe the same thing.

Do you believe God forces some to be saved and forces others to not be saved?
5 point Calvinists believe this. Do you believe this?
Most Christians today profess to believe in the Trinity (Which is a belief I hold to).
Yet, there are professing Christians who do not believe in the Trinity.
Do you think this is okay to believe in either one?
There are Christians who think they can sin as much as they want and be saved.
There are Christians who think they can sin only on occasion as long as they generally sort of live a holy life and be saved.
There are Christians who believe you need to have both faith + works of faith (and live holy) as a part of salvation.
So no. Not all Christians believe the same thing. I would encourage you to study and learn more about the different Christian beliefs that are out there. If you are totally fine with all of the above beliefs, there is even a Theological label for that (Whether you want to accept that label or not).

I here lies the problem. Or here lies my confusion I should say. I’m not the type of person who likes to guess. I’m also not the type of person who has a problem admitting when he is wrong. Unless I am 100% certain I have to be willing to admit that I could be wrong. So by the simple fact that you just said I believe this and some people believe that tells me that you guys aren’t certain yourself so I don’t have problem with that until you start speaking as if your certain and everybody else is wrong. And even then I don’t care that much to be honest. I joined the forums to get a better understanding of what is actually true and what is people’s opinions or interpretations.... so I do understand there are different titles, it is weird but I do understand that in today’s society things don’t always have to make sense. People can have the same belief system and believe different things. Once the truth gets butchered up it is no longer the truth wether it was butchered intentionally or unintentionally. Because of this I know I can’t walk around acting like I’m certain of what God meant or didn’t mean. It’s very very very arrogant if I were to do that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I here lies the problem. Or here lies my confusion I should say. I’m not the type of person who likes to guess. I’m also not the type of person who has a problem admitting when he is wrong. Unless I am 100% certain I have to be willing to admit that I could be wrong. So by the simple fact that you just said I believe this and some people believe that tells me that you guys aren’t certain yourself so I don’t have problem with that until you start speaking as if your certain and everybody else is wrong. And even then I don’t care that much to be honest. I joined the forums to get a better understanding of what is actually true and what is people’s opinions or interpretations.... so I do understand there are different titles, it is weird but I do understand that in today’s society things don’t always have to make sense. People can have the same belief system and believe different things. Once the truth gets butchered up it is no longer the truth wether it was butchered intentionally or unintentionally. Because of this I know I can’t walk around acting like I’m certain of what God meant or didn’t mean. It’s very very very arrogant if I were to do that.

All I can say is keep studying God's Word, and keep learning more about what others believe. When you do, you may see where I am coming from one day.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

All I can say is keep studying God's Word, and keep learning more about what others believe. When you do, you may see where I am coming from one day.

Sounds good. Been fun talking to you

 

[Johan_1988]

Pre-destination or being chosen by God is not an unbiblical teaching.

The following scripture explain that he leads us to repentance:
"Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

It is for God to choose who he would like to choose to save:
"Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

T

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Pre-destination or being chosen by God is not an unbiblical teaching.

The following scripture explain that he leads us to repentance:
"Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

It is for God to choose who he would like to choose to save:
"Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

T

So basically some people never had a chance to begin with is what your saying scripture says?

 

[St. Helens]

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[Elove]

Do election, adoption and chosen have to do with the will of the one being elected, adopted or chosen or the elector, adopter or chooser? Doesn't seem like much of a debate at all. And fair my friends has nothing to do with it. As the first book of Ephesians makes clear. Particularly the 5th verse, which also mentions predestination which I left out in the previous1st and 2nd person example. He does this predestination, adopting, electing and choosing according to His good pleasure verse 5 of the first chapter. In fact the whole first chapter leaves no doubt. I would post more entire chapters as well as passages but I've noticed that they have almost all been written and given commentary by a previous poster. It isn't hard if you have ears to hear. It's about our justification not the choices we make after we have been justified. We had no hope when we were dead in trespasses and sin. Now by God's Grace we are a new man created unto good works. Not by works of righteousness which I have done but by His Grace He saved me

 

[Elove]

Do election, adoption and chosen have to do with the will of the one being elected, adopted or chosen or the elector, adopter or chooser? Doesn't seem like much of a debate at all. And fair my friends has nothing to do with it. As the first book of Ephesians makes clear. Particularly the 5th verse, which also mentions predestination which I left out in the previous1st and 2nd person example. He does this predestination, choosing, electing and choosing according to His good pleasure verse 5 of the first chapter. In fact the whole first chapter leaves no doubt. I would post more entire chapters as well as passages but I've noticed that they have almost all been written and given commentary by a previous poster. It isn't hard if you have ears to hear

 

[Vi]

God knows what we are going to do with our free will. That's how we can be chosen. We don't know it but he knew us before we were even conceived.

 

[Elove]

God knows what we are going to do with our free will. That's how we can be chosen. We don't know it but he knew us before we were even conceived.

I just explained that Ephesians 1:5 tells us that we were predestined before the foundation of the world according to His good pleasure. The New Testament never says that we chose but that He chose. Never says that we adopted but He adopted. People want it to be fair because we want Him to think like us but He doesn't. Fair has nothing to do with it.
Is it fair that David was chosen and was "the apple of God's eye" after all he did? Did Paul choose God or did God strike Him blind on the road to Damascus and drag him against his will, kicking and screaming to his belief. God chose Abraham and therefore the entire nation of Israel. This is not a new concept God has always chosen his people.

 

[Elove]

So basically some people never had a chance to begin with is what your saying scripture says?

Yes that's what he's saying. It's not fair by our standards but fair would be for all mankind to perish in hell. So fair has nothing to do with it

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Yes that's what he's saying. It's not fair by our standards but fair would be for all mankind to perish in hell. So fair has nothing to do with it

So you agree with him? I would like to know if this is something that people really believe or is this rare?