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Why I don't believe in Calvinism.

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lol at “not all Christians believe the same thing”..... that makes me uncomfortable just thinking about it. Non believers would have a field day with that statement.

I have been discussing the Bible for a long time on Christian forums. How about you? Any Christian who discusses the Bible with other Christians will know of the Theological wording that we Christians use. It is simply a fact. For even some unbelievers (atheists, agnostics) are aware of these different theological words that we Christians use by similar discussion. Most of these theological words that we use are not new and nor did they spring up overnight. So I would say that you need to simply need to study them for yourself. I know. I used to be intimidated by such words in the beginning of my faith, but in time, they will become second nature to you once you learn more about them. For example: Do you believe in Calvinism? Not all Christians believe in Calvinism. Hence, why there is a debate in this thread.
 
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JM

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I found this posting wanting...of interaction with the material and demonstrating why it was 'wanting.'

I'll give this thread another 20 minutes and unsub from it.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Sam91

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Sam91

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I found this posting wanting...of interaction with the material and demonstrating why it was 'wanting.'

I'll give this thread another 20 minutes and unsub from it.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
Your post is too long to interact with on a mobile phone. I can't quote snippets and my short term memory is too poor to scroll so much.
 
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JM

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Too much of the Bible is missed out in order for this view to be sound. Many are the words of our Saviour.
Too much of your personal taste for libertarian freewill is colouring your perspective.

I find your comment wanting, but it's not too bad...I guess.

lol
 
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JM

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Your post is too long to interact with on a mobile phone. I can't quote snippets and my short term memory is too poor to scroll so much.

I'll unsubscribe in a few minutes anyway. It's best I post and bounce. People will send me messages...even years later, saying God used these posts to help them. It happens all the time.

To God be the glory, that's all that matters.

Peace
 
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Sam91

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Too much of your personal taste for libertarian freewill is colouring your perspective.

I find your comment wanting, but it's not too bad...I guess.

lol
It's not so much personal taste but what I have seen with my eyes and experienced over my life. I do not profess to understand the ins and outs but I know what my Bible says. I can't reconcile it to what you wrote, even though there were no unfamiliar verses. I just can't.

It's a good job the Lord has taught me Proverbs 3:5-6

And that His ways are higher than ours. His thoughts are not ours. Isaiah 55. Out of interest, can you reconcile that chapter to your theology?
 
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Not David

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I'm not well versed in the Aerial toll houses, but it is a fact that Satan wants to accuse us and make us feel bad of God's love. I will create a thread in the Orthodox Forum to discuss about it.
Nevertheless, my point about Calvinism being an innovation keeps firm.
 
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While I could easily tear apart each of the verses you use use out of context to support Calvinism, it simply does not need to be done because of the ridiculousness of Calvinism to begin with. It would be like arguing whether or not air exists or clouds exist. We know God does not force save some and force others to not be saved for the Scriptures say that God is love. A loving God would surely not force some people to not be saved and then later judge them at a judgment (for something that was outside of their control). It would be like creating a robot whereby you left it to it's own programming to kill people, and then you later put that robot on trial for murder. It would be illogical to judge the robot for killing if the robot had no other choice outside of it's programming to do so.

So a God who judges the wicked for something that they had no control over and God could have easily changed it for them places the blame of salvation on God and not the sinner. That would neither be loving and neither would it be biblical and it would be an attack upon the good character of our God. But you are free to believe as you wish (of course). I merely create this thread as a means to divert the conversation from a Christian advice thread. This thread was not meant to be a major attack against Calvinism. In fact, there does not need to be any debate or attack. Calvinism falls easier than a house of cards if a person studies the Bible on their own without any Calvinistic bias, and by walking with the Lord and His good ways. There are plenty of free will statements made in the Bible that refute the idea that we are forced to make a decision. Of course, Calvinism creates work arounds for the free will we see in the Bible. But it is forced and unnatural to what the Bible plainly says.
 
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Sam91

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I think what makes a difference is how much of a chance someone has had to read the Bible before encountering it. It's like lenses get put across peoples eyes to make it fit what they've been told. (Not saying I don't have lenses too).

Scripture has to be taken as a whole as well in part. I can't accept Calvinism because the warnings about being misled shoot into my mind/heart when I come across something that conflicts.
 
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Again, Calvinism would be like creating a robot whereby you left it to it's own programming to kill people, and then you later put that robot on trial for murder. It would be illogical to judge the robot for killing if the robot had no other choice outside of it's programming to not kill. So a God who judges the wicked for something that they had no control over when God could have easily changed it for them places the blame of salvation on God and not the sinner. Why would God want to see them perish if He had the sole power to save them?

Here is another example: Imagine if you, your family, and a bunch of others are lost at sea, and a coast guard comes. However, imagine if you will that the coast guard saves everyone else out of the water, but he does not save you and your family. You ask him why he is not saving all of you, and he says... "No reason." As he drives away into the distance, would you not think it was unfair? Would you not think the coast guard was being mean, cold, and cruel? You sure would, unless you felt like you deserved to be treated unfairly or something.
 
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Indeed. Why all the warnings to us if Calvinism were true? Why all the commands to us if Calvinism was true? Why all the free will statements if Calvinism was true?
 
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Sam91

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Indeed. Why all the warnings to us if Calvinism were true? Why all the commands to us if Calvinism was true? Why all the free will statements if Calvinism was true?
It would mean that much of the Bible wouldn't be needed, when it says all scripture is profitable for... 2 timothy 3:16-17
 
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Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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I’m well aware of all the different variations of titles different Christians give themselves. Although I haven’t quite seen one strung together like what you described yourself as I do understand that different Christians call themselves different things. And every single time I see it I cringe. I cringe because I don’t know how it became logical for two people to both be Christian and have differing beliefs. But maybe that’s my fault for hoping things should make some type of sense in the world we live in today. Apparently I’m in the minority who thinks it’s rather ridiculous to say we are of the same belief but we believe different...... I would laugh if someone was trying to explain truth to me and that came out of their mouth. I’d respectfully say thanks but no thanks.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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It would be like creating a robot whereby you left it to it's own programming to kill people, and then you later put that robot on trial for murder.

I've always regarded people who use the robot analogy to have no real understanding of Calvinism. It becomes apparent in such arguments:

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

After which you quote verses about making the right choice, et cetera. If you think that Calvinism means that people don't make choices, of their own volition, then you don't understand the subject. If you think it means we are robots, then you don't understand it.

Incidentally, If you create a robot that goes around killing people, I'm sure no one would blame you for destroying it. If all it did was harm the other robots you made, they would say that destroying it was your own business and you had a right to it.
 
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Let me give you a few examples that not all Christians believe the same thing.

Do you believe God forces some to be saved and forces others to not be saved?
5 point Calvinists believe this. Do you believe this?
Most Christians today profess to believe in the Trinity (Which is a belief I hold to).
Yet, there are professing Christians who do not believe in the Trinity.
Do you think this is okay to believe in either one?
There are Christians who think they can sin as much as they want and be saved.
There are Christians who think they can sin only on occasion as long as they generally sort of live a holy life and be saved.
There are Christians who believe you need to have both faith + works of faith (and live holy) as a part of salvation.
So no. Not all Christians believe the same thing. I would encourage you to study and learn more about the different Christian beliefs that are out there. If you are totally fine with all of the above beliefs, there is even a Theological label for that (Whether you want to accept that label or not).
 
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I've always regarded people who use the robot analogy to have no real understanding of Calvinism. It becomes apparent in such arguments:

Just saying so does not make it so. You need to prove how my logic is flawed.
Unconditional Election is saying that God does not elect a person based on no conditions within the individual whatsoever. In the case of electing a person to damnation (Which is unconditional - i.e. unconditional election), they are in a totally depraved state that they cannot escape out of and God is going to judge them at the judgment for something that they have no real control over.


I am not new to the topic of Calvinism. While I prefer not to debate this topic endlessly because it is a pretty silly belief to hold to (from my perspective), I am aware of some of things Calvinists believe. I am aware of the 5 points of traditional Calvinism and that there are different flavors of Calvinism, as well (that do not adhere to the 5 points of Calvinism).

I am also aware that Calvinists believe that individuals can make free will choices, but they simply believe that one cannot make a free will choice in regards to choosing God. This is what I was referring to. Calvinists also believe in Total Depravity, meaning the sinner will always sin. My robot analogy shows the Calvinist's understanding on Total Depravity that they cannot escape sin and choose God. God elects them to remain in this totally depraved state of sin, and He judges them for something that they had no real control over to prevent. It's like a master who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (with the master knowing that fact). The master does not care and he simply punishes the poor animal for something it has no real control over. So fair justice? Yeah, it doesn't exist in the world of 5 point Calvinism (At least that I can see).


But the point here is if you had the ability to stop the robot from no longer killing others, then why not set it in it's program to not do that? Why would God allow for the robot to go on a killing rampage, when God could have stopped it? I know why God does not sometimes stop certain sins in this world. It is because He is desiring all men to repent and seek forgiveness with Him. But in the world of Calvinism, God is electing some men to remain as they are in their sinful state when God can just easily flip a switch inside them and make them into a perfectly loving being. God not making them into a loving being when that is how He operates would mean that God wants some to do evil. But if God lets man choose what He wants, then good or evil is their hands and they will be responsible for what they will do at a judgment.
 
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sparow

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I do not believe in Calvinism because I believe in Christ-ism, Jesus is my teacher. So I Know little about Calvinism; but I comment on what you say.

"Free will”, generally means freedom; but freedom from what? Having freedom to follow God or to not follow God, is relative to a context and is not universal freedom; there is always friction or cost whether one follows God or not. Jesus offers rest from the consequences of sin, the cost is engaging with God and is a continuing process. The cost of disobedience to God is ultimately the second death; the cost of obedience to God is Christ on the cross. Disobedience to God is our-self on the cross; to call this free is deceptive at least.

Judgement is required because there is a standard to be meet.
 
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It's not a lack of free will that we are obligated to obey God as a part of eternal life unless you were forced against your own free will to automatically do that beyond your own control. Free will is saying you have a choice to either obey God, or not obey God. You are perfectly capable of obeying or disobeying. This means you have a free will choice. So free will is not an illusion or deceptive. It's why the Bible says choose this day in whom ye will serve.

Side Note:

In fact, no being in the universe has absolute free will whereby there is no consequences whatsoever to their actions. Even God is limited to only doing good because God is good and there is no darkness within Him.
 
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