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Foreknowledge isn't the issue or in contest.Or, that God, omniscient and existing outside of time, simply cannot help but know in advance what the free choices of His creatures, who do exist in time, will be.
Philippians 2:13: "for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure".
Foreknowledge precedes human will & not the other way round. If humans could choose otherwise, foreknowledge becomes meaningless. Thus foreknowledge means human will isn't free.
Well, that's the rub. Personal feelings aside, there is enough there in Scripture for any of us to make a reasonable case for either Election or Freewill.I believe that a few verses can be taken out of context to support Calvinism, but it is not the majority of the Scriptures, though.
No one does.I don't believe the writings of the canons of Dort should be added to the Bible.
Bible nowhere says humans could freely choose. "Believe" doesn't mean "you could believe" or "you could produce faith". You haven't quoted a single scripture to rice one could produce faith.
Instead Bible says only the sheep can believe (John 10:26), that is, only those who were appointed for eternal life (Acts 13:48).
Your theology is only based on implications while disallowing Scripture.
Well, that's the rub. Personal feelings aside, there is enough there in Scripture for any of us to make a reasonable case for either Election or Freewill.
Bible Highlighter said:I don't believe the writings of the canons of Dort should be added to the Bible.
You said:No one does.
Hmm. I think I see part of the problem now. Of the verses you posted, most do not actually preclude Predestination. That's because we are all born in sin and in need of choosing Christ (and thereby being saved). To be predestined simply means that you have been named to receive the Faith which will allow you to do that. That the Bible includes many admonitions about coming to Christ isn't something that proves either POV.
The case is in Scripture.But let's not kid each other. There is no case you can make for Unconditional Election.
Against their will? He didn't ask any of us if we would like to be born.What purpose would the judgment be if it was God who put them there against their will?
Try to avoid that common misconception about Predestination. It doesn't suggest that anyone will be a robot or robotic.That would be like putting robots on trial because it was merely following it's programming.
To teach truth and Godliness. In daily life, we often make claims about what's right or wrong, but not because we are counting noses. Instead we seek to assert the truth for its own sake and as a witness to all who hear or read it.What would it serve Jesus to preach against unrighteousness and sin if it was all just predetermined by God to be a certain way?
I don't think that's so. You just got a bit too poetic at that point.While folks do not say they are official words added to the Bible, they are treated as if it was on the same authority as if it was the Bible because of the uplifting of such teachings.
That may be how you use the word, but I was using it in the context of Calvinism since that is our topic here."The Elect" is just another way of saying the "Corporate Church" as a whole.
The case is in Scripture.
You said:Against their will? He didn't ask any of us if we would like to be born.
You said:Try to avoid that common misconception about Predestination. It doesn't suggest that anyone will be a robot or robotic.
You said:To teach truth and Godliness. In daily life, we often make claims about what's right or wrong, but not because we are counting noses. Instead we seek to assert the truth for its own sake and as a witness to all who hear or read it.
Bible Highlighter said:While folks do not say they are official words added to the Bible, they are treated as if it was on the same authority as if it was the Bible because of the uplifting of such teachings.
You said:I don't think that's so. You just got a bit too poetic at that point.
That may be how you use the word, but I was using it in the context of Calvinism since that is our topic here.
Yes, it is. And as I recall, you already admitted it. Anyway, it might be worthwhile for you to pose some question in the Reformed forum where I am sure there are people who will amplify this point for you.No it's not.
I already answered this one.Again, it is illogical to preach against unrighteous and sin or for Jesus to desire for Israel to be gathered like a hen gathers its chicks under its wings if it was all predetermined.
When there are verses that seem clearly to support Predestination and Eternal Security, it is not a matter of assuming something like a theoretical lack of oxygen at an earlier time in history, etc.Things have to make logical sense when we read the Bible. That would be like assuming there was no oxygen back then or that the sky was red all the time or something.
I think there would be. God is just, so we do not doubt his role as judge. And if anyone comes to him as evil, unGodly, an unrepentant violator of the Ten Commandments, an unbeliever, etc. then it makes perfect sense for God to judge them unworthy. He created mankind good, but it (in Adam) chose something else. This we know from Scripture.There are limitations upon mankind and things that we have no control over, but the point of the Judgment would not make any sense if it was God who placed us there.
Just like the people who come to any one of dozens of other denominations through the influence of some other person, eh?But nobody comes to these conclusions on their own without Calvinistic teachers.
Totally wrong. All these verses instruct to choose but NONE says you could freely choose.Yes, it does. In many places the Bible says we have free will to choose.
Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.
Free Will in the Bible:
#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"
#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."
#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."
#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"
#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"
#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"
#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"
#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."
#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
Your statements are ridiculously circular arguments proving NOTHING.I really should not have to argue against Calvinism. It's pretty ridiculous - IMO. I believe it is a violation of basic morality and the Bible. I believe that a few verses can be taken out of context to support Calvinism, but it is not the majority of the Scriptures, though. I don't believe the writings of the canons of Dort should be added to the Bible. The Bible alone is sufficient.
He foreknows their choices & yet goes ahead to create them instead of stopping them from existing. Thus He predetermines their destiny.Or, that God, omniscient and existing outside of time, simply cannot help but know in advance what the free choices of His creatures, who do exist in time, will be.
Sadly man's doctrine has put scales over the eyes so they can not/will not see. Just like we were warned about in scripture. I don't think it's possible to make seasoned calvinist debators actually read what you type and read the bible without reading it through their indoctrinated lenses.There is only one context and that is the context of what the Bible actually says. Calvinism does not make sense in light of the Bible, basic morality, and what we know about the real world. Again, do men go to court today because they had no control over their own crimes? Do you think there are cases where men have learned from their mistakes? Or do you think they are all programmed to be a certain way? If such is the case, then why are men off the hook when it comes to making a decision with God? Granted, I am not saying that there are not points in a life of a person where God draws them and without this drawing they cannot see the things of God, but the point here is that they are not forced against their will to be a certain way. If such were the case, then what we do does not matter here. Life would be totally without hope and meaningless if God chose some to be saved and others to not be saved.
If He predetermines their destiny then they can make no choices that could be merely foreknown by Him; He would make the choices for them. But instead they determine their destiny, by their choices. Otherwise we'd be saying that it's absolutely impossible for God to create a being with free will-simply because He cannot help but know the choices they will make. That would be like saying that, if you were miraculously given the gift of foreknowledge about a friend's choices, those choices would automatically be rendered not free.He foreknows their choices & yet goes ahead to create them instead of stopping them from existing. Thus He predetermines their destiny.
If He predetermines their destiny then they can make no choices that could be merely foreknown by Him; He would make the choices for them.
So, yes, even with grace our comprehension of God is only partial in this life, and our wills are not overwhelmed by it as if we're merely passive players. Man's choice comes into play when he's made aware of the options, when God draws man to Himself. Because even then man can resist and reject this grace. He can still say "no", as Adam did in Eden.That isn't true. Predestination applies only to the ability to choose God (who we must admit is beyond our abilities to fully comprehend).
With the other of life's choices, we have free will--whom to marry, where to live, a million actions each day, and so on.
At least, that is Calvinism...and since we are supposedly talking about Calvinism here, it matters.
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