Why I do not accept evolution part one

[Sheila Davis]

I see where you. like many other christians who add the idea of a universe to the Genesis creation account.

When there is no mention anywhere in the Bible where it is stated that God created a universe. It is always stated in the Bible when speaking of Gods creation, that God created heaven and earth.

So there is no universe where this evolution lie could have taken place.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.

‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Our help is in the name of the Lord, who made heaven and earth.

The Lord who made heaven and earth Bless you from Zion!

___ The heavens ( Shamayim in Hebrew) and the universe are the same thing. The word universe was was not used in those days, neither was the word space, up there was called heaven. Information states the word Universe was coined in a 1589 by Omeir Fawaz from the French word univers, taken from the Latin word universum. So that word universe is only been used 5/6 hundred years. 2nd Peter 3:8 tells us, one day to the Lord is as a thousand years and A Thousand Years is as one day.

 

[Sheila Davis]

___ The heavens ( Shamayim in Hebrew) and the universe are the same thing. The word universe was was not used in those days, neither was the word space, up there was called heaven. Information states the word Universe was coined in a 1589 by Omeir Fawaz from the French word univers, taken from the Latin word universum. So that word universe is only been used 5/6 hundred years. 2nd Peter 3:8 tells us, one day to the Lord is as a thousand years and A Thousand Years is as one day.

 

[d taylor]

___ The heavens ( Shamayim in Hebrew) and the universe are the same thing. The word universe was was not used in those days, neither was the word space, up there was called heaven. Information states the word Universe was coined in a 1589 by Omeir Fawaz from the French word univers, taken from the Latin word universum. So that word universe is only been used 5/6 hundred years. 2nd Peter 3:8 tells us, one day to the Lord is as a thousand years and A Thousand Years is as one day.

Heaven or heavens in the Bible is not the same as a science created universe.

From the Bible three heavens are known

The first raqia/heaven (sky) is where the sun moon and stars are located also where the birds fly across the face of. This heaven separates two bodies of water.

The second heaven

Then the third heaven where Paul was taken, and Ezekiel saw the Messiah.

And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Anyone here discussing reasons they don't believe in evolution, cause things have really wandered off into irrelevancies?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I see where you. like many other christians who add the idea of a universe to the Genesis creation account.

When there is no mention anywhere in the Bible where it is stated that God created a universe. It is always stated in the Bible when speaking of Gods creation, that God created heaven and earth.

What a laughably poor argument. If something's creation is not mentioned specifically in the bible it doesn't exist. The air we breath, the bacteria we rely on for food digestion, mineral resources we use to make things etc. Apparently none of these exist.

'Then Jesus gave the following illustration: “Can one blind person lead another? Won’t they both fall into a ditch?"'

 

[Sheila Davis]

Heaven or heavens in the Bible is not the same as a science created universe.

From the Bible three heavens are known

The first raqia/heaven (sky) is where the sun moon and stars are located also where the birds fly across the face of. This heaven separates two bodies of water.

The second heaven

Then the third heaven where Paul was taken, and Ezekiel saw the Messiah.

And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.

:::: yes I am aware that Paul was taken to the third heaven - as mentioned in Scripture.
You say "not the same as a science created universe." Human science did not create the universe. Human science tries to give a how, and most widely accepted, The Big Bang Theory, of how the universe was created.
If you feel heaven, heavens, and the universe _ which is outer space _ out and up there - everything in the midst of seen and unseen - are not the same, that's your choice, your beliefs your way of understanding. Mine is different. Thank you!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

What if they do? There has been research into animal morality that suggests it may not be entirely unique to humans.

Even humans can differ from group to group on what is right and wrong for all but the most fundamental moral values - and occasionally for those too.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Not really. What you describe is punctuated equilibrium, but that simply means that significant changes occur over relatively short timescales (typically in response to environmental or ecosystem changes). That doesn't mean the changes aren't incremental - where a detailed fossil record is available these incremental changes can be seen, but since the relevant periods are relatively short, the fossil record around these periods is likely to be correspondingly sparse. OTOH incremental changes can more easily be seen in the fossil record over longer timescales.

I take your point, though I'd say 'punctuated equilibrium' at least finally acknowledged what skeptics had been saying all along- that phenomena like the Cambrian explosion were real, that we CAN trust the evidence in the fossil record- not dismiss it as some illusion- i.e. let the evidence guide the theory, not the other way around

"the fossil record around these periods is likely to be correspondingly sparse."

perhaps, and perhaps the dog really did eat the kid's homework, but that does not earn an 'A' grade- i.e. constitute 'undeniable' evidence as some claim for ToE..

 

[Guy Threepwood]

@Guy Threepwood

I'm willing to bet that you can't even say when the Cambrian explosion occurred. 500-505 Mya, 505-510mya? 510-515? 515-520? 520-525? 525-530? 530-535? 535-540? Etc.

When exactly do you think the Cambrian explosion occurred and why?

Or, are you accepting of the fact that it actually spans dozens of millions of years and is therefore not an issue for the theory of evolution?

I'd say 14 billion years is an issue for the theory of evolution, it's not enough time to randomly assemble even some of the simplest proteins by trial and error

'dozens of millions of years' to produce most of the major phyla... that's a teensy bit of an issue, yes!

 

[d taylor]

:::: yes I am aware that Paul was taken to the third heaven - as mentioned in Scripture.
You say "not the same as a science created universe." Human science did not create the universe. Human science tries to give a how, and most widely accepted, The Big Bang Theory, of how the universe was created.
If you feel heaven, heavens, and the universe _ which is outer space _ out and up there - everything in the midst of seen and unseen - are not the same, that's your choice, your beliefs your way of understanding. Mine is different. Thank you!

The question is not whether you believe this or i believe that. But does what you believe line up with the Bible and Gods creation.

 

[Ophiolite]

I'd say 14 billion years is an issue for the theory of evolution, it's not enough time to randomly assemble even some of the simplest proteins by trial and error

'dozens of millions of years' to produce most of the major phyla... that's a teensy bit of an issue, yes!

Arguments from Incredulity. No other response required.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Arguments from Incredulity. No other response required.

Once again, the opposite, it's not that we do not know how such information systems can be created, we DO, and we are using one right now.

Creative intelligence leaves objective fingerprints, as recognized by archeologists and forensic scientists.

Is recognizing intelligent agency in the Rosetta Stone an argument from 'incredulity' that natural erosion did it? To some extent yes, but not the entire argument

 

[pitabread]

Creative intelligence leaves objective fingerprints, as recognized by archeologists and forensic scientists.

Which is typically based on an understanding of the process by which the object was created.

So what was the process by which living things were created?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Which is typically based on an understanding of the process by which the object was created.

So what was the process by which living things were created?

People still debate how the pyramids, Stonehenge, were created- I do a lot of work in architecture and love visiting Gothic cathedrals, it amazes me how some of these structures could be built with the technology they had..

Does this cause any confusion whatsoever, over the necessity of creative intelligence being involved?

IF a UFO as in 'independence day' hovered over NY city, then zipped away again receeding at the speed of light- would we be forced to conclude 'natural phenomena' until we figured out their warp drive?

There are many objects that have puzzled archeologists over the years re. their construction, but the construction technique is not the fingerprint of design- the information represented by the design is.
The 'process' for the design is 'creativity'

 

[Speedwell]

There are many objects that have puzzled archeologists over the years re. their construction, but the construction technique is not the fingerprint of design- the information represented by the design is.
The 'process' for the design is 'creativity'

It is the only fingerprint of design. Otherwise, the presence of design is an unfalsifiable assertion. That's why SETI is looking for narrow-band microwave signals of a kind not thought to be produced naturally, rather than "creativity."

 

[Guy Threepwood]

It is the only fingerprint of design. Otherwise, the presence of design is an unfalsifiable assertion. That's why SETI is looking for narrow-band microwave signals of a kind not thought to be produced naturally, rather than "creativity."

exactly, they are looking for something that would require creativity, since nature is not inclined to do it by itself.

They don't need to have any clue whatsoever as to how they achieved this.

If you hear music, you don't need to know if it is from a radio, CD, Iphone , record player or live band, to realize you are not probably not alone in the woods!

 

[Ophiolite]

People still debate how the pyramids, Stonehenge, were created-

Experts in the field debate minor details, not major ones. It is misleading of you to imply otherwise.

I do a lot of work in architecture and love visiting Gothic cathedrals, it amazes me how some of these structures could be built with the technology they had..

Why it almost sounds as if you were incredulous. If you do a "lot of work in architecture" then you know that all major aspect sof the construction of these cathedrals are understood.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Why it almost sounds as if you were incredulous. If you do a "lot of work in architecture" then you know that all major aspect sof the construction of these cathedrals are understood.

Of course, some features are just more obvious than others- I climbed the dome on the Vatican when it was still possible to do so- considering the difficulties people get into on far smaller projects with CAD, cell phones, and a world of knowledge at their fingertips, it is pretty mind boggling, call me easily impressed!

I built an igloo (dome) with my nephews a few years ago, - just on the spur of the moment, for fun, we did not 'research' igloo building! And so we got to the point where starting a new row of blocks was very hard- they would just fall in. The key technique we missed, was using a smooth spiral from the foundation up, so that you never have to start a new row.- different material and different technique

Point being: not knowing construction technique, does not mean we could not recognize an igloo or cathedral dome, that it was a human construct- so construction technique is clearly not the ultimate 'fingerprint' of design- but the design itself

 

[Speedwell]

Of course, some features are just more obvious than others- I climbed the dome on the Vatican when it was still possible to do so- considering the difficulties people get into on far smaller projects with CAD, cell phones, and a world of knowledge at their fingertips, it is pretty mind boggling, call me easily impressed!

I built an igloo (dome) with my nephews a few years ago, - just on the spur of the moment, for fun, we did not 'research' igloo building! And so we got to the point where starting a new row of blocks was very hard- they would just fall in. The key technique we missed, was using a smooth spiral from the foundation up, so that you never have to start a new row.- different material and different technique

Point being: not knowing construction technique, does not mean we could not recognize an igloo or cathedral dome, that it was a human construct- so construction technique is clearly not the ultimate 'fingerprint' of design- but the design itself

So the spiral layout was the only construction technique you noticed?

 

[Ophiolite]

So the spiral layout was the only construction technique you noticed?

I was trying to figure out the best way of exposing the flaw in his argument, but you have nailed it.