Why I believe the rapture will be before the tribulation.

[Old Timer]

Thank you Old Timer. That is exactly what I have been saying. I agree that the root represents God as He is the source of nourishment for both Israel and the church. Thus both are the people of the same God: The God of Israel. In this sense, we are part of the Israel of God, the body of true believers, the faithful. As I said, it’s a spiritual concept, and it is a major detour from the actual point I was trying to make so many posts ago.

Would you prove how this is a spiritual concept as you say.. Your claim is not enough.

And until people understand the distinction.. we will continue to have people reference Matthew 24 as proof that the rapture of the church happens after the tribulation.

It's that simple.

You continue to say this. I’d like you to provide some actual proof of it. No offense, but your claim is not enough.

Here is proof, show me the church of God on earth in Revelation 4-20... which pertains to the Day of the Lord.. the things which shall be hereafter.. here and after the things which are.. which is this present time.

that's a nice place to start.

 

[Old Timer]

The next proof I would propose is the marriage of the Lamb to His wife in Revelation 19 which is clearly in heaven.. not on earth.

Then the coming of Christ to destroy the armies of the world which the beast and false prophet have gathered together to make war against Him..

Evidently the marriage is in heaven before the coming of Christ..

The church of God is the Lamb's wife...

Do the math.. This places the church of God in Heaven before Christ comes.

 

[Old Timer]

Another proof (or test) we could think upon is how that Day shall come..

As a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child...

Two interesting clues...

 

[Bible2]

Old Timer said in post 75:

And I could certainly be wrong.. although I see strong evidence that Christ is the root and the offspring is David.. As well as the vine which John speaks of in chapter 15 of his gospel.

John 15:5a refers to the body of Christ, of which all believing Jews and Gentiles are a part (1 Corinthians 12:13). The connection between them being part of the vine of the body of Christ, and them also being part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) is that the salvation which all believers have in Christ comes through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Old Timer said in post 75:

Furthermore, we know that Israel is presently cut off and blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles come in..

In Romans 11:25 the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28) but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

*******

Old Timer said in post 82:

Then the coming of Christ to destroy the armies of the world which the beast and false prophet have gathered together to make war against Him..

Evidently the marriage is in heaven before the coming of Christ..

The church of God is the Lamb's wife...

Do the math.. This places the church of God in Heaven before Christ comes.

In Revelation 19:14, the original Greek word (ouranos, G3772) translated as "heaven" can refer to the "sky" (Matthew 16:2-3, Luke 12:56), which will be the location of the literal clouds and air of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Revelation 19:14 refers to the already immortally-resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) and married obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7) descending with Jesus from the sky (the first heaven), where the church had been raptured to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

 

[TPeterY]

It has to do with the Greek word peri. This word is precisely why translations such as the KJV include the word of. It’s much like the use of the word hell in the Bible. This word is not always referring to the lake of fire. However, many people read the word hell and only think of one place, yet different words with different meanings were used in different places that were all translated into English as the word hell. The point is that if we want clarification, sometimes we have to go back to the source documents to see what was actually written. With a translation like the KJV, the inclusion of the word of, which appears innocuous at first glance, is a reminder that there is something that needs to be looked at in this verse. Since that word was not added for clarity and is actually translated from the Greek, we need to know what it means in order to understand that verse better. As I said, given the meaning of the word peri, and given the context of the message Jesus delivered in Matthew 24, the meaning of the verse is clear. It would make no sense for Jesus to contradict Himself by giving signs of the end of the age and His coming and then telling them it’s impossible to know the answer to their questions. Thus logic as well as translation favor understanding this passage the way it is translated in the ESV.

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” (Mat 24:36 ESV)

Matthew 24:36
English Standard Version (ESV)
No One Knows That Day and Hour

36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

Wish you stop trying to make something out of this verse into something that's not. It's pretty straight forward and the emphasis is on 1) only The Father knows, 2) no one else knows and 3) the day and hour, not Peri.

Whether if you change it to "concerning that day and hour" or "of that day and hour" or "regarding that day and hour" or "but of that day and hour," they all speak in reference to that day and hour.

And it's not in the same reference as Hell and The Lake of Fire. Those are clearly two different places. Hell is just a waiting room for those that denies The Son awaiting judgement at the end of the millennium. The Lake of Fire is eternal and the final resting place of Hell (Hell will be cast into The Lake of Fire, as well as Death) and those who's name not found in the Book of Life.

 

[TPeterY]

You already answered your own question.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 is the answer.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

This passage answers the what. What will come as a thief in the night? The Day of The Lord will come as a thief in the night. Now we need to answer the who. Who will the Day of The Lord come upon as a thief in the night? It will come upon those who sleep. It will come upon those who are in darkness in the same way that a thief comes unsuspectingly upon those who are not on guard against him. However, Paul goes on to say who this day should not come upon as a thief.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

If you are part of those in the light (part of the brethren), that day should not overtake you in the same manner. Why? Because we are children of light. Thus, let us watch because we know what to watch for, we believe what is to come, and we believe in The One who is to come. This is Paul’s message.

If we look at 2 Peter 3:10, we see that he is speaking of the same subject.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Again, here in the book of 2 Peter, the speaker is once again addressing the subject of the Day of The Lord. Once again, the concept is that this day will come upon an unsuspecting world that has dismissed such a possibility. They have grown comfortable in their own understanding and in the apparent consistency of generations of experience that tell them that the world is as it was, and it will continue to be as it has always been.

This is exactly who Peter is speaking about earlier in this same Chapter.

2Pe 3:3-5 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

As Paul made clear, this day should not come unsuspectingly on the vigilant believer: the faithful. They should, as he said, watch and be sober.

Jesus uses the parable of the thief and the good man in order to illustrate the necessity of vigilance and faithfulness. There is always a purpose to each parable. There is a message we are to take away. If we become too consumed with extrapolating the details of the parable to find a secret, we may miss its intended meaning. Luke 12:39 (see also Mat 24:23) is an attempt by Jesus to emphasize the importance of remaining faithful unto the end. What end? Your end. Your end may come in death or at His coming. Whichever is to be your end, you are to remain faithful until you reach it.

“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.” (Mat 10:22)

Jesus’ warning is against complacency. We are not to get too comfortable and too burdened with the cares of this life lest they consume us and we forget The Master we are called to serve. It is exactly at such a time that our soul might be required of us.

“And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.” (Luke 21:34)

This is precisely the point of the parable of the rich man earlier in Luke 12:16-20. It is a warning against becoming too carefree in this life, too comfortable, too secure. After all, this world and this life are only temporary. The rich man felt that he had it all, and he was prepared to retire and enjoy life; yet, at that very moment, his life comes to an end.

“But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?” (Luke 12:20)

This is a common warning throughout Scripture. We are warned against complacency. We are warned not to become too concerned with the cares of this life, especially to the detriment of our walk with God. It is easy to do as more and more time passes. It’s easy to forget that, at any moment, we can be called from this life. It’s easy to look at the world around us and think we have plenty of time. The more comfortable we get, the more we relax our guard and allow sin to creep in. If we aren’t careful, we’ll be among those caught completely off guard by the Day of The Lord. Whichever end we meet, it will catch us unprepared if we allow ourselves to become too comfortable and forget to be the good man Christ called us to be.

Revelation 3:3 once again emphasizes the need to remain vigilant and faithful. If we fail to remain faithful, then He will come upon us as a thief. Therefore, He gives the command to hold fast and repent. He commands them (and by extension all of us) to watch because if we fail to watch (remain faithful, remain on guard, remain loyal, remain committed), we will be caught unprepared. Again, the context of the verse makes it clear that He is not saying that His coming will be unexpected. Rather, He is warning that we will be caught unprepared if we stop watching. This is because the more comfortable we get, the more we allow sin to enter our lives. We become more concerned with this world and this life and forget that this is only a temporary existence. If we aren’t careful, we’ll trade eternity for a moment of respite here.

Yes that's true, but you didn't emphasize the other meaning of a Thief. It's twofold. Those not prepared and ready will be caught off guard...as you explained for they are children of the dark. But Jesus will still come at an hour and day no one knows, except the Father, not even us the children of the light will know the hour and day. And the verse that tell us is Matthew 24:36. It's why the rapture is imminent.

So the "who" the day of the lord will come upon is everyone....except The Father.

Because if you evaluate Matthew 24:36 under both a Pre and a Post scenario, it only makes sense for a Pre-Trib rapture. If Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation, everyone will know when He'll come from all the signs during the tribulation (7 year covenant, destruction of Babylon, abomination of desolation, two witnesses raptured, a Time of Jacob's trouble etc). If He comes before the tribulation, no one will know the day and hour, there's not enough signs of His imminent return.

Now look at the rest of the chapter 24 from verse 36-42.

Matthew 24:37-41
New King James Version (NKJV)

37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Jesus described what the rapture will be like in verses 40 & 41. And it will happen when people are eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Who's gonna be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage immediately after the worst 7 years in man's history? This indicates the rapture is more likely before the 7 year tribulation.

Revelation 16 is no different. Jesus is about to return to a world that does not believe in Him and does not expect His coming. These are the same ones spoken about by Peter and Paul. This is the world that does not believe He will return. It isn’t that they haven’t been warned. It isn’t that they haven’t been given enough information or enough time. It’s that they’ve chosen not to believe. They are willfully ignorant. They’ve chosen to do it their way and not His way. These rebellious and unrepentant people are the exact ones Paul warns this day will come as a thief upon, and Jesus confirms this right here; but He also says in this same verse, “Blessed is he that watcheth” (Rev 16:15). Who besides he that believes would bother to watch? If he who believes is already gone, why would he bother to watch?

Ahh Paul didn't write the book of Revelation, John wrote it. Sorry.

 

[TPeterY]

Post-tribulation does not hold that God will punish the faithful. It merely holds that God does not have to remove the faithful from the world in order to punish the wicked. However, post-trib also holds that while God’s wrath will be poured out on the wicked, Satan’s wrath will be directed at Israel and the righteous (as it always has been). This is why we read what we do in Revelation 12. Notice that it is Satan’s wrath, not God’s, that is kindled against those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He's not gonna punish the faithful. I think we can both agree on that. But that does not mean He will leave us here either. That's where Jesus comes in. (1st Thessalonians 1:10 [NKJV] and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come). And the manner of how He'll do it is explain again (Matthew 24:40-41 [NKJV]40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left).

Sorry bud, but the wrath to come isn't geographical or locational, it will strike the whole earth. Everyone will be tested, some more than others. Some might lose their life, some might only lose just a house, but all will be effected. Since you brought up Revelation 3:10, look.

Revelation 3:10
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

With regards to the Scriptures you quoted, none of them are beyond the scope of any view on the timing of the rapture. In other words, they do not actually distinguish a pre-trib rapture from the second coming as you stated. You as a pre-tribulation believer see a pre-tribulation rapture in those verses. Another who is post-tribulation in their belief will see a post-tribulation second coming in those verses or a deliverance that does not require removal. When Paul says that Jesus will deliver us from the coming wrath, a pre-tribulation rapture interpretation is not the only way to interpret that verse. Deliverance does not have to equal rapture, and deliverance in the form of a rapture does not have to be pre-tribulation. Whether the gathering has happened at that point or not depends on what point on the prophetic timetable we are talking about. This is why it’s important to consider what the author is saying and what he is not saying. When a conclusion is not clear within the context of the verse or passage itself (such as concluding the timing of an event based on its mentioning in a verse), then we must link it to elsewhere in Scripture where the context is made clear. After all, it is reasonable to conclude that the author is speaking of the same thing if their description fits.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV)
10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (NKJV)
13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Really? You can't see interpretation of those two verses? Jesus delivers (not hide, protect or pardon) us from the wrath to come(furture tense). Paul is saying Jesus delivers us first, wrath comes second. That's a Pre-Trib statement.

And He comes with His saints. As in Rev 19 on a White Horse for the battle of Armageddon. This is before the end of the tribulation. So a Post Trib is impossible under that verse.

Let’s look at this passage.

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10)

This was addressed to the church at Philadelphia. Is there anything recorded in history that suggests they were raptured? If they all died, then how did He keep them from the hour of temptation? Earlier in Revelation 2:18-25, He warns that He will cast the wicked members of the church at Thyatira into great tribulation because of their sin, yet He tells the righteous that are also part of the church at Thyatira that He will place no further burden upon them. Do we have any record of them being raptured? I realize that by extension these messages are for all of God’s church. The principles are as relevant today as they were then. The point is that they were being persecuted back then. The warning was that God would use tribulation to punish the evildoers, yet He would protect those who He knew were not evildoers from His punishment. Did He accomplish this, and, if so, how? Again, God’s judgment must not be confused with Satan’s wrath or the actions of a sinful and ungodly world upon the righteous.

Now the fun part. Actually, sorry bud, but it's very wrong. Revelation 3:10 is actually a rapture of the faithful church.

You know why there's no rapture? It's because all 7 churches are representations of all Christians that ever live(d) on earth. Each church is symbolic of our sins or obedience. Every Christian falls under one or more of those Churches based on their works. It is not 7 churches representing a time frame from the time of Christ to the present day.

Lets take the Laodicean (lukewarm) church. Now if someone thinks this church represent all the Christians living today, wrong! Laodicean represent Christians that are rich and wealthy since the time of Christ to today. Look at all the Christians dying today in the middle east being beheaded, burned, starved to death for their faith. These Christians are not lukewarm, they are under the Faithful (Philadelphia) church and the Persecuted (Smyrna).

Revelation 2:8-11
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Persecuted Church

8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’

Revelation 3:7-22
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Faithful Church

7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[a] 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[c] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

The Lukewarm Church
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[d] write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[e] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

Now let's look at the Corrupt (Thyatira) Church in Rev 2:18-23. It's about sexual sins. Now if anyone really believes each 7 churches represented a time frame over the last 2 thousand years, are you telling me, for a 3 hundred year period all Christians committed nothing but sexual sins? And if you look, you can see Jesus will leave them behind in the tribulation unless they repent.

Revelation 2:18-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Corrupt Church

18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

Lets go further and look at the other remaining churches.

The Loveless Church (Ephesus), repent or Jesus will remove their lampstand. Symbolic to what happens to 5 of the 10 in the Parable of the 10 Virgins.

Revelation 2:5
New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

The Compromising Church (Pergamos), repent or Jesus will fight against them with the sword of His mouth symbolic of Rev 19:15. By the way, Pergamos is the seat of satan and in the country where the antichrist will emerge.

Revelation 2:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Revelation 19:15
New King James Version (NKJV)
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And the Dead church (Sardis), repent or Jesus will come upon them like a Thief in the night.

Revelation 3:3
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

The message from John about the 7 churches are only 2 (Philadelphia and Smyrna) of the 7 are worthy of Jesus' salvation from the first death when he raptures us, if a Christian commits the other 5 exceedingly without repentance, they will endure the tribulation. Christians can be classified under all 7 categories and not just one.

Grace is salvation from the 2nd death, not the first. Only children, babies and I believe new born Christians are exempt from the wrath to come. (Might be more but this area I'm not 100% certain).

So that's your answer why there were no rapture of those churches.

 

[shturt678s]

The wrath to come has already came, ie, preliminary judgments in Rev.8:7-9:21. For those that have the former unveiled will "remain in" during these "error's working" being cast down from heaven redounding one's salvation even during the acme of God's righteous justice and wrath as in today's full blown apostasy where most think it's all of God's grace and mercy?

Old Jack

 

[Shocker]

The wrath to come has already came, ie, preliminary judgments in Rev.8:7-9:21.

Old Jack

Can you place this in an objective historical setting..?

Dates would be nice as well.

 

[shturt678s]

Can you place this in an objective historical setting..?

Dates would be nice as well.

Be happy to, eg, Rev.11:2, "they shall tread it down for 42 months" Historcally the symbolism of the words, "the holy city they shall tread down," is taken from the historical prophecy of Jesus recorded in Lk.21:24: "Jerusalem shall be troden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Historically 70 A.D. to the "1" Parousia, not followed by a "millennium," ie, a national conversion of the Jews.

Old Jack

 

[Shocker]

Be happy to, eg, Rev.11:2, "they shall tread it down for 42 months" Historcally the symbolism of the words, "the holy city they shall tread down," is taken from the historical prophecy of Jesus recorded in Lk.21:24: "Jerusalem shall be troden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Historically 70 A.D. to the "1" Parousia, not followed by a "millennium," ie, a national conversion of the Jews.

Old Jack

Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, or for 42 months?

I would imagine the lack of specificity here would lead to confusion..


I guess I was looking for a historical account that you could parallel with scripture for the 70ad theory.

You see, none of what is mentioned in Revelation is written historically so as to objectively match the prophecy and call it past.

If it were, we wouldn't be having this conversation imo, God is not a confusing, or obscure God in the least.

You can show me the the temple was destroyed, but you cant show me 70ad in the Bible, you rely on Roman historical records to prove that.

So I guess Id like to see something objective that historically verifies your claim.

 

[bibletruth469]

I believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation . The scripture verses that were quoted above by Tpetery are very good examples of why the rapture can only happen before the tribulation .

I also agree with you that the churches mentioned in revelation does include people today . I am one who does not believe in the church ages theory. However , I do believe that the 7 churches represent true believers in the churches today and throughout history. I also think that many people are in churches today who think they are saved but are really not. Church membership does not save anyone. It's about a relationship with our Lord and savior. I really believe that's why Jesus mentions the positive and the negative about each type of church because there are unsaved people who are deceived along with the saved ones within the churches.

I believe that the entire church will be raptured , not just the obedient ones. I mentioned this on another thread . The rapture is 2 fold , right? The dead in Christ will rise first. Did they have time to become obedient. It says in 1 thess 4 that ALL in Christ, dead and alive will take part in the rapture. It says in Ephesians , we have been saved by grace through faith , it is not of works that no one should boast.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation . The scripture verses that were quoted above by Tpetery are very good examples of why the rapture can only happen before the tribulation .

I also agree with you that the churches mentioned in revelation does include people today . I am one who does not believe in the church ages theory. However , I do believe that the 7 churches represent true believers in the churches today and throughout history. I also think that many people are in churches today who think they are saved but are really not. Church membership does not save anyone. It's about a relationship with our Lord and savior. I really believe that's why Jesus mentions the positive and the negative about each type of church because there are unsaved people who are deceived along with the saved ones within the churches.

I believe that the entire church will be raptured , not just the obedient ones. I mentioned this on another thread . The rapture is 2 fold , right? The dead in Christ will rise first. Did they have time to become obedient. It says in 1 thess 4 that ALL in Christ, dead and alive will take part in the rapture. It says in Ephesians , we have been saved by grace through faith , it is not of works that no one should boast.

I also believe that -but only the obedient Church [not to rituals, but to the LORD] is the entire Church -the rest do not get to go.

There is something about the tribulation for ten days that I am trying to grasp light on, and to do so I have to say that the Churches Jesus wrote to in Asia also speak of the same in all the one age of the one Church on earth, and then the ten days may seem to refer to the time between the Ascension of the LORD and the ingathering of the harvest of Pentecost, which was ten normal days, and may signify the one age of tribulation the true Church [those who are truly born again in Christ no matter where they fellowship at] suffers before the ingathering of the one Harvest of Pentecost.
I haven't fully fleshed this out and have asked the LORD to show me. As I seek understanding on that I expect to see it in His word, with opened eyes, so that there is no confusion on the matter.

 

[bibletruth469]

I also believe that -but only the obedient Church [not to rituals, but to the LORD] is the entire Church -the rest do not get to go. There is something about the tribulation for ten days that I am trying to grasp light on, and to do so I have to say that the Churches Jesus wrote to in Asia also speak of the same in all the one age of the one Church on earth, and then the ten days may seem to refer to the time between the Ascension of the LORD and the ingathering of the harvest of Pentecost, which was ten normal days, and may signify the one age of tribulation the true Church [those who are truly born again in Christ no matter where they fellowship at] suffers before the ingathering of the one Harvest of Pentecost. I haven't fully fleshed this out and have asked the LORD to show me. As I seek understanding on that I expect to see it in His word, with opened eyes, so that there is no confusion on the matter.

Are you talking about professing or true believers ? Yes, I also pray for Gods wisdom. I also pray for the Holy Spirits direction .

 

[shturt678s]

Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, or for 42 months?

I would imagine the lack of specificity here would lead to confusion..


I guess I was looking for a historical account that you could parallel with scripture for the 70ad theory.

Sorry, I thought you understood Lk.21:24? Also I found out decades ago that only though confusion does any amount of truth comes through the truth mixed with subtle errors, especially in the times I was born into, ie, only a head's up. For example, just because the word Trinity in not the Bible doesn't mean that the sense of the Trinity is not there, ie, just because 70 A.D. is not literally written down doesn't means the sense is not there.

You see, none of what is mentioned in Revelation is written historically so as to objectively match the prophecy and call it past.

If it were, we wouldn't be having this conversation imo, God is not a confusing, or obscure God in the least.

You can show me the the temple was destroyed, but you cant show me 70 A.D. in the Bible, you rely on Roman historical records to prove that.

Lk.21:24, "And Jerusalem shal be trampled by Gentiles,' specifically in 65-70 A.D. The two statements about those who shall be devoured by the mouth (Greek idiom, ie, not meant for confusion, but to clear up) of the Roman short sword that was used by the Roman legionaries and about those who shall be carried away as captive slaves into all the Gentiles nations of the Roman Empire are striking prophecies that were most literally fulfilled in 65-70 A.D.

Josephus, Wars, 6, 9, 3, states that 1,100,000 Jews were slain and 97,000 carried away as captive slaves in 65-70 A.D. The figures have been considered too high whereas, if anything, from my research they are too low at 65-70 A.D. The city was closed in during the Passover season, and the number who attended this festival exactly at 65-70 A.D. Josephus, Wars, 2, 14, 3 reports with accuracy, namely over 3,000,000, counting only 10 to a paschal lamb. The significance of this alaughter and this exile, ie, 65-70 A.D., into slavery is the destruction of the Jewish nation as a nation at 65-70 A.D.

So I guess Id like to see something objective that historically verifies your claim.

I think this should be enough historical evidence for 65-70 A.D, correct?

Old Jack,

Escaping from a state of confusion, ie, an old age and milage thing

 

[Shocker]

Sorry, I thought you understood Lk.21:24? Also I found out decades ago that only though confusion does any amount of truth comes through the truth mixed with subtle errors, especially in the times I was born into, ie, only a head's up. For example, just because the word Trinity in not the Bible doesn't mean that the sense of the Trinity is not there, ie, just because 70 A.D. is not literally written down doesn't means the sense is not there.



Lk.21:24, "And Jerusalem shal be trampled by Gentiles,' specifically in 65-70 A.D. The two statements about those who shall be devoured by the mouth (Greek idiom, ie, not meant for confusion, but to clear up) of the Roman short sword that was used by the Roman legionaries and about those who shall be carried away as captive slaves into all the Gentiles nations of the Roman Empire are striking prophecies that were most literally fulfilled in 65-70 A.D.

Josephus, Wars, 6, 9, 3, states that 1,100,000 Jews were slain and 97,000 carried away as captive slaves in 65-70 A.D. The figures have been considered too high whereas, if anything, from my research they are too low at 65-70 A.D. The city was closed in during the Passover season, and the number who attended this festival exactly at 65-70 A.D. Josephus, Wars, 2, 14, 3 reports with accuracy, namely over 3,000,000, counting only 10 to a paschal lamb. The significance of this alaughter and this exile, ie, 65-70 A.D., into slavery is the destruction of the Jewish nation as a nation at 65-70 A.D.



I think this should be enough historical evidence for 65-70 A.D, correct?

Old Jack,

Escaping from a state of confusion, ie, an old age and milage thing

The trinity doctrine is just that, a doctrine, I don't believe in the trinity.

I believe in God. I hold that God is a spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God. I believe that God incarnated in flesh, and died for our sins.

70ad is when Rome, who already occupied Jerusalem, destroyed Jerusalem.

Roman historical records verify this claim.


The Bible just says it will happen, but its not in the Bible that the temple was actually destroyed.

You must search outside of scripture for your understanding of the fulfillment of that prophecy.

Which is what you must do for events that have yet to pass.. Prophecy is intrinsically futuristic by nature..

The reason you cant show me the man of sin in history for example is because God hasn't given you objective data to give me, it hasn't come to pass or that would be easy to do.

We could easily reference a time in History when a man declared himself to be God of this world, as well as the prophecies leading to the return of Christ.

But they don't exist, and if they did, God would give them to us.

 

[Bible2]

shturt678s said in post 90:

Be happy to, eg, Rev.11:2, "they shall tread it down for 42 months"

Regarding the 42 months, 1,260 days, and "a time, and times, and half a time", they're all the same time period in the prophecies of Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 13:5, Revelation 12:6,14, Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 12:7. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days, and the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days, and the 70 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11-12 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5).

The literal 1,260-day time period will be the time of the Antichrist's Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled, not even during a past time period of 1,260 years, as historicism mistakenly claims. But these details must be fulfilled (Revelation 1:1). So they will be fulfilled in our future, after the also-never-fulfilled details of Revelation chapters 6 to 10 are fulfilled in our future.

shturt678s said in post 90:

Historcally the symbolism of the words, "the holy city they shall tread down," is taken from the historical prophecy of Jesus recorded in Lk.21:24: "Jerusalem shall be troden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

The treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos, G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos, G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

 

[shturt678s]

The trinity doctrine is just that, a doctrine, I don't believe in the trinity.

Not saying you're wrong, however I knew there was something more behind your posts, and I couldn't put my finger on it, ie, you brought it forth, and thank you again.

I believe in God. I hold that God is a spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God. I believe that God incarnated in flesh, and died for our sins.

70ad is when Rome, who already occupied Jerusalem, destroyed Jerusalem.

Roman historical records verify this claim.

So did I provide the historical evidence for my 70 A.D. 'theory' at Lk.21:24? Once we can dial this in then we can move back to my Rev.11:2, 3 theory.

The Bible just says it will happen, but its not in the Bible that the temple was actually destroyed.

So you're saying that Jeses prophecy in Matt.24:2 was fully fulfilled as Josephus said it was, ie, In no way shall there be left here stone upon stone which shall not be thrown down". All those older works I accessed said all was literally destroyed? Anyone or works that your aware of that said one stone was left on another?

You must search outside of scripture for your understanding of the fulfillment of that prophecy.

Which is what you must do for events that have yet to pass.. Prophecy is intrinsically futuristic by nature..

The reason you cant show me the man of sin in history for example is because God hasn't given you objective data to give me, it hasn't come to pass or that would be easy to do.

We could easily reference a time in History when a man declared himself to be God of this world, as well as the prophecies leading to the return of Christ.

But they don't exist, and if they did, God would give them to us.

Old Jack,

btw Bible2 have to run, will be back to respond

 

[Shocker]

Not saying you're wrong, however I knew there was something more behind your posts, and I couldn't put my finger on it, ie, you brought it forth, and thank you again.





So did I provide the historical evidence for my 70 A.D. 'theory' at Lk.21:24? Once we can dial this in then we can move back to my Rev.11:2, 3 theory.



So you're saying that Jeses prophecy in Matt.24:2 was fully fulfilled as Josephus said it was, ie, In no way shall there be left here stone upon stone which shall not be thrown down". All those older works I accessed said all was literally destroyed? Anyone or works that your aware of that said one stone was left on another?



Old Jack,

btw Bible2 have to run, will be back to respond

You've likely never met a Christian like me, I am fed on the milk and fat of the Lords rich Word, I am not affiliated with any sect of Christianity, I am a Christian.


My beliefs are the best of each of yours, the stuff you guys in your mini Christian clicks actually get right..

The rest I discard.

If you could chop each teaching in the bible up into little pieces, and start a church on those little pieces, that's what you have today as modern Christianity.


Come out of Babylon, we have cookies.

 

[shturt678s]

You've likely never met a Christian like me, I am fed on the milk and fat of the Lords rich Word, I am not affiliated with any sect of Christianity, I am a Christian.


My beliefs are the best of each of yours, the stuff you guys in your mini Christian clicks actually get right..

The rest I discard.

If you could chop each teaching in the bible up into little pieces, and start a church on those little pieces, that's what you have today as modern Christianity.


Come out of Babylon, we have cookies.

Thank you again for your fellowship, and encouragement sir.

Old Jack

btw 'cookies' are one of my weak spots with Reeses