Why I believe the rapture will be before the tribulation.

[BABerean2]

"In the above-mentioned manuscript of reminiscences, Newton also says concerning the Brethren chapel at Plymouth, opened in 1831: “On the very second Sunday that the chapel was used, a divergence arose. In the morning the Secret Rapture was preached by Capt. Hall, and in the evening it was denounced by Wigram.’” Wigram later changed and became Darby’s closest lieutenant. Lady Powerscourt, who was favorably disposed toward Irving, established prophetic conferences similar to those at Albury, and to these came followers of Irving and J. N. Darby himself. With the intermingling of Irving, Irvingites, and early Brethren at such conferences, it is easy to see how pretribulationism developed under Irvingite influence."

“The Church and the Tribulation” by Robert H. Gundry, Zondervan Publishing, 1973
Page 186

 

[Biblewriter]

"In the above-mentioned manuscript of reminiscences, Newton also says concerning the Brethren chapel at Plymouth, opened in 1831: “On the very second Sunday that the chapel was used, a divergence arose. In the morning the Secret Rapture was preached by Capt. Hall, and in the evening it was denounced by Wigram.’” Wigram later changed and became Darby’s closest lieutenant. Lady Powerscourt, who was favorably disposed toward Irving, established prophetic conferences similar to those at Albury, and to these came followers of Irving and J. N. Darby himself. With the intermingling of Irving, Irvingites, and early Brethren at such conferences, it is easy to see how pretribulationism developed under Irvingite influence."

“The Church and the Tribulation” by Robert H. Gundry, Zondervan Publishing, 1973
Page 186

You have yet to demonstrate even one source that says Irvingites were present at Powerscourt with anything thet even resembles documentation to back it up.

Such theories are promulgated by one individual and picked up and circulated by others. But until you can demonstrate even one person who had actual knowledge of the facts saying such things, you are only circulating hearsay.

Put up or shut up. Provide documentation to back up your theories or forget about "proof."

 

[BABerean2]

Biblewriter,

You are still in that river found in Egypt. It is called Denial.

"Lady Powerscourt, who was favorably disposed toward Irving..."

Now if Lady Powerscourt was disposed toward Irving, do you think she might just invite him to the Powerscourt conference? Now, I know you would insist on a photograph showing them together at the Powerscourt conference. Even if we had that, you would probably insist that it could have been photo-shopped.

Dispensationalists have avoided the connection to Irving like the plaque, due to some of his heretical teachings. However, we have written eyewitness testimony of Brethren who were there like Newton, and Tregelles. Robert Baxter, who was a former Irvingite, also provided written evidence of the events that occurred. All three of them wrote later that the "Secret Rapture" came from the Irvingites. Darby then changed Matthew chapter 24 to scriptures "written to the Jews" to produce the doctrine you are promoting today.

At the beginning of Matthew chapter 24, the text plainly states that Christ was talking to his disciples. Because he could see the future, he knew they would be the leaders in the early Church. The verse below shows that Christ's view of his disciples was different from his view of the Jews. Christ considered his disciples as, his "little children". However, we have to forget all of that to get Darby's doctrine to work.

John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

The Great Commission of the Church is at the end of the book of Matthew, but forget this fact, because it was "written for the Jews". Darby said it, so it must be true.


Come out of that river Brother, before you drown.

 

[n2thelight]

But what hour are they promised to be kept out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of trial.” It is specifically called “the hour,” for the word “the” is in the Greek text, as the word ho. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) But what “hour of trial” is this specific time that they are they promised to be kept out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

There is a specific “hour of trial” coming “to test those who dwell on the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of trial.” For the Greek word here translated to test is peirasmon. (a singular infinitive of peirasmos, word number 3985 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This literally means exactly as it is translated, to test. So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to test those who dwell on the earth.” Its purpose is not to test the saints of God, but “those who dwell on the earth.” This is a moral class, those whose hearts are on the earth, rather than in heaven. This moral class is named in these words eight times in the Revelation, and always in a negative light.

This is the hour,when true tongues shall be spoken again,as written of in Mark


Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate:but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour,that speak ye,for it is not ye that speak,but the Holy Spirit

When this time comes into being in the very near future, it will not be the elect of God that does the speaking, but the Holy Spirit speaking in and through the mouths of His elect. Every one of these individuals will be delivered before these false councils before the final day of this earth age. This is why Peter would say to the people in Acts 2, on Pentecost day; "This is that which was spoken of by Joel the Prophet."

The Holy Spirit will speak through only those that have the seal of God,so it's no way the Church will be gone

 

[dfw69]

This is the hour,when true tongues shall be spoken again,as written of in Mark


Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate:but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour,that speak ye,for it is not ye that speak,but the Holy Spirit

When this time comes into being in the very near future, it will not be the elect of God that does the speaking, but the Holy Spirit speaking in and through the mouths of His elect. Every one of these individuals will be delivered before these false councils before the final day of this earth age. This is why Peter would say to the people in Acts 2, on Pentecost day; "This is that which was spoken of by Joel the Prophet."

The Holy Spirit will speak through only those that have the seal of God,so it's no way the Church will be gone

Why can't the church be taken and the Holy Spirit continue to work on earth? It's just one harvest ... Not the final harvest

 

[Biblewriter]

Biblewriter,

You are still in that river found in Egypt. It is called Denial.

"Lady Powerscourt, who was favorably disposed toward Irving..."

Now if Lady Powerscourt was disposed toward Irving, do you think she might just invite him to the Powerscourt conference? Now, I know you would insist on a photograph showing them together at the Powerscourt conference. Even if we had that, you would probably insist that it could have been photo-shopped.

Dispensationalists have avoided the connection to Irving like the plaque, due to some of his heretical teachings. However, we have written eyewitness testimony of Brethren who were there like Newton, and Tregelles. Robert Baxter, who was a former Irvingite, also provided written evidence of the events that occurred. All three of them wrote later that the "Secret Rapture" came from the Irvingites. Darby then changed Matthew chapter 24 to scriptures "written to the Jews" to produce the doctrine you are promoting today.

At the beginning of Matthew chapter 24, the text plainly states that Christ was talking to his disciples. Because he could see the future, he knew they would be the leaders in the early Church. The verse below shows that Christ's view of his disciples was different from his view of the Jews. Christ considered his disciples as, his "little children". However, we have to forget all of that to get Darby's doctrine to work.

John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

The Great Commission of the Church is at the end of the book of Matthew, but forget this fact, because it was "written for the Jews". Darby said it, so it must be true.


Come out of that river Brother, before you drown.

You are treating comments written in the late twentieth century as if they are an authoritative source of information about events that took place 150 years earlier, in the early part of the nineteenth century. Unlike your previous article that had at least documentation for some of its comments, you are now relying on one that does not document anything it says, at least in the parts you are quoting.

Darby and Irving were mortal enemies. Even Darby's earliest mention of Irving's writings were pointing out how mistaken he was. It does not even make sense that Darby's lover would be a supporter of his sworn enemy.

 

[n2thelight]

Why can't the church be taken and the Holy Spirit continue to work on earth? It's just one harvest ... Not the final harvest

Because the Holy Spirit won't just speak through anybody....Heck most of us on these forums can't seem to understand His Word,how will the suppose left behind people get it.....

During the tribulation, two groups of peole will be on this earth,those with the Seal of God,and those with the Mark of the Beast......

 

[dfw69]

Because the Holy Spirit won't just speak through anybody....Heck most of us on these forums can't seem to understand His Word,how will the suppose left behind people get it.....

During the tribulation, two groups of peole will be on this earth,those with the Seal of God,and those with the Mark of the Beast......

The Holy Spirit can make a donkey talk...anyone who cries out to The Lord will be heard.

There will be another great outpouring of the spirit ... With or without the church

 

[n2thelight]

The Holy Spirit can make a donkey talk...anyone who cries out to The Lord will be heard.

There will be another great outpouring of the spirit ... With or without the church

Said He would'nt,did'nt say He could'nt....Also which scripture do you use for another outpouring of the Spirit?

 

[dfw69]

Said He would'nt,did'nt say He could'nt....Also which scripture do you use for another outpouring of the Spirit?

Why would not the Holy Spirit move if many are crying out to him in those days the church is gone?

Because many tribulation saints are not deceived by satans future plans.. That's proof enough for me that an outpouring of gods spirit takes place in those days ...

 

[BABerean2]

Excerpt from "The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine"
by Pastor Tim Warner pages 2,3

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf



Father Manuel de Lacunza

Fr. Manuel de Lacunza was a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, born in Chili in 1731, and sent to Spain at the young age of 15 to become a Jesuit priest. When the Jesuits were expelled from Spain in 1767, Fr. Lacunza moved to Italy. In 1790, he wrote a book on prophecy, called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, which was published in Spain in 1812. Fr. Lacunza wrote under the pen name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra (a converted Jew), allegedly to avoid detection since his book ended up on Rome's banned books list. Fr. Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal interpretation of Old Testament prophecy, and the primitive futurist view of Revelation. He rejected the “year-day theory” of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a personal Antichrist and future tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the second coming of the Lord. He did not espouse a pretribulation rapture.

Edward Irving

Edward Irving was the pastor of a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London in the 1820s. Irving became aware of Fr. Lacunza's book, and was so impressed with it, he took it upon himself to translate it into English, adding a lengthy Preliminary Discourse of his own. Irving's English translation was published in 1827. Irving's developing prophetic views can be clearly discerned from his Preliminary Discourse, including, surprisingly, all the key elements of dispensationalism that later showed up in Darby's writings, (see Appendix A for excerpts). Irving indicated that he had been teaching these things to his congregation beginning in Christmas 1825, several years before Darby embraced dispensational ideas.1 Irving strongly denounced the apostasy of the Christian denominations in his preaching. He proclaimed that God was about to restore Apostles and prophets to the Church in the last days, and that a great Pentecostal outpouring would come just before the soon return of Jesus Christ. Right on schedule, rumors of healings, tongues, visions, and other manifestations began circulating in Port Glasgow, Scotland, from the home of 3 James and George MacDonald and their sister Margaret. People came from England, Ireland, and Scotland to observe the strange manifestations in the prayer meetings held by the MacDonalds. The “revival” quickly spread to Irving's church, with tongues, prophecy, and other manifestations breaking out. Irving was eventually defrocked by the Church of Scotland because of the strange goings on, and his heretical views of the person of Christ, (he taught that Jesus had a fallen human nature). So, Irving moved his congregation to a rented hall, forming the Catholic Apostolic Church. Not only were tongues, prophetic revelations, and other alleged miracles occurring in Irving's congregation, but these ecstatic utterances focused on end-time prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord.

Excerpt below from pages 4-6

Robert Baxter (1833)

British Lawyer, Robert Baxter, was an early member of the Irvingite charismatics. Baxter had previously been a posttribulationist, but eventually adopted the pretribulation rapture views of Irving. He, along with several other “prophets” of the Catholic Apostolic Church, gave many prophecies, all of which failed. He later became disillusioned with the whole movement, and abandoned Irvingism (and pretribulationism). Upon his departure, he wrote an expose of Irvingism, called Narrative of Facts, Characterizing the Supernatural Manifestations in Members of Mr. Irving's Congregation (1833), including Irving's early pretribulation teachings. "An opinion had been advanced in some of Mr. Irving's writings, that before the second coming of Christ, and before the setting in upon the world of the day of vengeance, emphatically so called in the Scriptures, the saints would be caught up to heaven like Enoch and Elijah; and would be thus saved from the destruction of this world, as Noah was saved in the ark, and Lot was saved from 5 Sodom." Baxter wrote that the coming of the Lord was the main topic of the prophetic utterances in Irving's congregation. Looking back, he thought they had all been deceived by lying spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit. (See Appendix E).

Robert Norton (1861)

Robert Norton was the author of "The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Catholic Apostolic Church" (1861). Norton took a favorable view of the Irvingite movement, writing in the preface that his book was offered "as proofs or illustrations of its heavenly origin and character." (See Appendix F). Norton named Margaret MacDonald as the first to proclaim the “new doctrine” of a pretribulation rapture, which was picked up by Edward Irving.

Samuel P. Tregelles (1855/1864)

Samuel P. Tregelles was the most eminent Plymouth Brethren scholar of the 19th century, with first hand knowledge of the Irvingites. In an 1855 article in The Christian Annotator, Tregelles wrote that the true Christian hope is the final “advent” and "not some secret advent, or secret rapture to the Lord, as Judaizers supposed might be the case...".2 (A later Plymouth Brethren writer, William Kelly, also identified the Irvingites as the “Judaizers”3). Nine years later, Tregelles published "The Hope of Christ's Second Coming," in which he wrote: “But when the theory of a secret coming of Christ was first brought forward (about the year 1832), it was adopted with eagerness: … I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin.”4 The last statement, “not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation … without taint of sin,” referred to the Irvingite cult’s heretical view of the person of Christ, and to the Apostle John’s test that any spirit not acknowledging the true doctrine of the incarnation was of “the spirit of antichrist,” (1 John 4:1-3).

John Nelson Darby

The Irish lawyer, John Nelson Darby, one of the founders of the Plymouth Brethren, is typically credited by pretribulationists as the man who “revived” dispensational pretribulationism. Yet it is clear that Darby was a latecomer to pretribulationism, which originated among the Irvingites. Darby wrote his first prophecy paper in 1829.5 In this paper, he clearly did not have dispensationalist or pretribulationist views. Darby 6 argued that unfulfilled Old Testament prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel should be applied to the Church, the typical historicist – amillennial point of view. He also placed the Church on earth until Armageddon, showing he was still a posttribulationist. By this time, dispensationalist ideas were already well developed in Irving's 1826 Preliminary Discourse. Darby was familiar with Irving and his ideas. On pages 6-10 & 19-21, Darby referred to Irving, de Lacunza, The Morning Watch, and even quoted some of Irving's works, including his Preliminary Discourse! So, while dispensational concepts may have eventually taken root in Darby's mind, they were not developed by him! He borrowed them from Irving. In 1830, Darby was still defending historicism against futurism three months after the pretribulational “Fidus” article appeared in The Morning Watch. In the December 1830 issue of The Christian Herald, Darby published an article entitled, "On 'Days' Signifying 'Years' in Prophetic Language."6 Darby defended the standard historicist view, that the 1260 day tribulation meant 1260 years. (See Appendix H). Consequently, he saw the tribulation as largely past, and could not possibly have been expecting a pretribulation rapture, which requires a "futurist" viewpoint. In 1830, J. N. Darby also visited the MacDonald's in Port Glasgow, and observed the strange manifestations in their prayer meetings, as Darby later recalled. Darby described the sequence of events — who prayed, who spoke in tongues, etc.7 But, while he noted Margaret's speaking, he failed to mention the subject of her prophesying. However, John Cardale, who was also present, wrote that Margaret "commenced also speaking ... gave testimony to the judgments coming on the earth; but also directed the church to the coming of the Lord as her hope of deliverance," and was heard speaking in a loud voice "denouncing the coming judgments."8 Therefore, we can conclude that Darby was fully aware that the pretribulation rapture was a subject of the prophecies among
the MacDonalds and the Irvingite charismatics. It was nine more years before Darby clearly espoused a pretribulation rapture in his published works.
...........................................................................

Go to the link at the top for the rest of the article and the documentation that accompanies the article.

...........................................................................

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ


Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) Read pages 13-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

......................................................................................

Let no man deceive you...

 

[Bible2]

BABerean2 said in post 323:

At the beginning of Matthew chapter 24, the text plainly states that Christ was talking to his disciples. Because he could see the future, he knew they would be the leaders in the early Church.

Great point.

And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation of the earth during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

 

[Bible2]

dfw69 said in post 325:

It's just one harvest ... Not the final harvest

The 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 bodily resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits bodily resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); 2. the future bodily resurrection of the entire church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and right before the millennium (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the bodily resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

 

[Biblewriter]

Excerpt from "The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine"
by Pastor Tim Warner pages 2,3

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf



Father Manuel de Lacunza

Fr. Manuel de Lacunza was a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, born in Chili in 1731, and sent to Spain at the young age of 15 to become a Jesuit priest. When the Jesuits were expelled from Spain in 1767, Fr. Lacunza moved to Italy. In 1790, he wrote a book on prophecy, called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, which was published in Spain in 1812. Fr. Lacunza wrote under the pen name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra (a converted Jew), allegedly to avoid detection since his book ended up on Rome's banned books list. Fr. Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal interpretation of Old Testament prophecy, and the primitive futurist view of Revelation. He rejected the “year-day theory” of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a personal Antichrist and future tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the second coming of the Lord. He did not espouse a pretribulation rapture.

Edward Irving

Edward Irving was the pastor of a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London in the 1820s. Irving became aware of Fr. Lacunza's book, and was so impressed with it, he took it upon himself to translate it into English, adding a lengthy Preliminary Discourse of his own. Irving's English translation was published in 1827. Irving's developing prophetic views can be clearly discerned from his Preliminary Discourse, including, surprisingly, all the key elements of dispensationalism that later showed up in Darby's writings, (see Appendix A for excerpts). Irving indicated that he had been teaching these things to his congregation beginning in Christmas 1825, several years before Darby embraced dispensational ideas.1 Irving strongly denounced the apostasy of the Christian denominations in his preaching. He proclaimed that God was about to restore Apostles and prophets to the Church in the last days, and that a great Pentecostal outpouring would come just before the soon return of Jesus Christ. Right on schedule, rumors of healings, tongues, visions, and other manifestations began circulating in Port Glasgow, Scotland, from the home of 3 James and George MacDonald and their sister Margaret. People came from England, Ireland, and Scotland to observe the strange manifestations in the prayer meetings held by the MacDonalds. The “revival” quickly spread to Irving's church, with tongues, prophecy, and other manifestations breaking out. Irving was eventually defrocked by the Church of Scotland because of the strange goings on, and his heretical views of the person of Christ, (he taught that Jesus had a fallen human nature). So, Irving moved his congregation to a rented hall, forming the Catholic Apostolic Church. Not only were tongues, prophetic revelations, and other alleged miracles occurring in Irving's congregation, but these ecstatic utterances focused on end-time prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord.

Excerpt below from pages 4-6

Robert Baxter (1833)

British Lawyer, Robert Baxter, was an early member of the Irvingite charismatics. Baxter had previously been a posttribulationist, but eventually adopted the pretribulation rapture views of Irving. He, along with several other “prophets” of the Catholic Apostolic Church, gave many prophecies, all of which failed. He later became disillusioned with the whole movement, and abandoned Irvingism (and pretribulationism). Upon his departure, he wrote an expose of Irvingism, called Narrative of Facts, Characterizing the Supernatural Manifestations in Members of Mr. Irving's Congregation (1833), including Irving's early pretribulation teachings. "An opinion had been advanced in some of Mr. Irving's writings, that before the second coming of Christ, and before the setting in upon the world of the day of vengeance, emphatically so called in the Scriptures, the saints would be caught up to heaven like Enoch and Elijah; and would be thus saved from the destruction of this world, as Noah was saved in the ark, and Lot was saved from 5 Sodom." Baxter wrote that the coming of the Lord was the main topic of the prophetic utterances in Irving's congregation. Looking back, he thought they had all been deceived by lying spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit. (See Appendix E).

Robert Norton (1861)

Robert Norton was the author of "The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Catholic Apostolic Church" (1861). Norton took a favorable view of the Irvingite movement, writing in the preface that his book was offered "as proofs or illustrations of its heavenly origin and character." (See Appendix F). Norton named Margaret MacDonald as the first to proclaim the “new doctrine” of a pretribulation rapture, which was picked up by Edward Irving.

Samuel P. Tregelles (1855/1864)

Samuel P. Tregelles was the most eminent Plymouth Brethren scholar of the 19th century, with first hand knowledge of the Irvingites. In an 1855 article in The Christian Annotator, Tregelles wrote that the true Christian hope is the final “advent” and "not some secret advent, or secret rapture to the Lord, as Judaizers supposed might be the case...".2 (A later Plymouth Brethren writer, William Kelly, also identified the Irvingites as the “Judaizers”3). Nine years later, Tregelles published "The Hope of Christ's Second Coming," in which he wrote: “But when the theory of a secret coming of Christ was first brought forward (about the year 1832), it was adopted with eagerness: … I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin.”4 The last statement, “not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation … without taint of sin,” referred to the Irvingite cult’s heretical view of the person of Christ, and to the Apostle John’s test that any spirit not acknowledging the true doctrine of the incarnation was of “the spirit of antichrist,” (1 John 4:1-3).

John Nelson Darby

The Irish lawyer, John Nelson Darby, one of the founders of the Plymouth Brethren, is typically credited by pretribulationists as the man who “revived” dispensational pretribulationism. Yet it is clear that Darby was a latecomer to pretribulationism, which originated among the Irvingites. Darby wrote his first prophecy paper in 1829.5 In this paper, he clearly did not have dispensationalist or pretribulationist views. Darby 6 argued that unfulfilled Old Testament prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel should be applied to the Church, the typical historicist – amillennial point of view. He also placed the Church on earth until Armageddon, showing he was still a posttribulationist. By this time, dispensationalist ideas were already well developed in Irving's 1826 Preliminary Discourse. Darby was familiar with Irving and his ideas. On pages 6-10 & 19-21, Darby referred to Irving, de Lacunza, The Morning Watch, and even quoted some of Irving's works, including his Preliminary Discourse! So, while dispensational concepts may have eventually taken root in Darby's mind, they were not developed by him! He borrowed them from Irving. In 1830, Darby was still defending historicism against futurism three months after the pretribulational “Fidus” article appeared in The Morning Watch. In the December 1830 issue of The Christian Herald, Darby published an article entitled, "On 'Days' Signifying 'Years' in Prophetic Language."6 Darby defended the standard historicist view, that the 1260 day tribulation meant 1260 years. (See Appendix H). Consequently, he saw the tribulation as largely past, and could not possibly have been expecting a pretribulation rapture, which requires a "futurist" viewpoint. In 1830, J. N. Darby also visited the MacDonald's in Port Glasgow, and observed the strange manifestations in their prayer meetings, as Darby later recalled. Darby described the sequence of events — who prayed, who spoke in tongues, etc.7 But, while he noted Margaret's speaking, he failed to mention the subject of her prophesying. However, John Cardale, who was also present, wrote that Margaret "commenced also speaking ... gave testimony to the judgments coming on the earth; but also directed the church to the coming of the Lord as her hope of deliverance," and was heard speaking in a loud voice "denouncing the coming judgments."8 Therefore, we can conclude that Darby was fully aware that the pretribulation rapture was a subject of the prophecies among
the MacDonalds and the Irvingite charismatics. It was nine more years before Darby clearly espoused a pretribulation rapture in his published works.
...........................................................................

Go to the link at the top for the rest of the article and the documentation that accompanies the article.

...........................................................................

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ


Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) Read pages 13-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

......................................................................................

Let no man deceive you...

You continue to falsely claim this doctrine was originated by Lacunza, even though I have clearly demonstrated that every doctrine you attribute to Lacunza, and through him to Irving, was already current before Lacunza's book was published, and that most of them were actually taught in the oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy that has survived to the present day.

And you continue to claim that Darby got his doctrine through Irving, even though you have failed to produce any documentation of that claim, other than the claim by Tregelles, which you are aware was discredited by William Kelly, a close associate of Darby. And you have not even produced documentation of the claim made by Tregelles, but only statements that he made it.

As the proof that every single one your claims has either been proven to be incorrect or to be completely lacking in documentation, your continuing to present them amounts to a positive and willful attempt to deceive people.

This goes far beyond error. it is blatantly dishonest.

 

[BABerean2]

Jer 14:13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

Mat_21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth thefruits thereof.

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat_24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat_24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Rom_16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Eph_4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Biblewriter]

Jer 14:13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

Mat_21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth thefruits thereof.

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat_24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat_24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Rom_16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Eph_4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

It is a spiritual crime to equate the true words of the prophets who were inspired by the Holy Spirit with the false words of false prophets. And it is basically dishonest to equate honestly held interpretations of scripture with the false doctrines of those who deny the basic truths of scripture. The absolute truth is that all interpretations of the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation, for although the scriptures plainly say it will happen, they simply do not say when it will happen.

 

[BABerean2]

Biblewriter,

"The absolute truth is that all interpretations of the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation, for although the scriptures plainly say it will happen, they simply do not say when it will happen."


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[SG9]

Dear BW,

I will agree with you on the simple fact that the rapture does come before the tribulation; I see this whole Bible theme like a marriage between God and a Bride but the thing that seems overlooked is that we are supposedly married now to God, and I see it as a relationship between a man and a woman in parallel who experience the courtship and the marriage, and the final result of it.

In this parallel as Revelation tells of this in a Wedding theme we should also see this story through as it would likely play out. In this sense I see the so called 'rapture' as when the Bridegroom and the Bride are approached the Altar in their respective order, the Groom first and then the Bride.

The so called 'tribulation' is what follows after the man and the woman are married; These tribulations are most horrible, and bad enough to drive the couple apart forever as we commonly see in our our lives. The couple would have never married if they had first tasted what fruit's they would bear then.

On the other hand, the tribulation may be of two sides as a tribulation of divorce before a marriage to another. In this picture we are as harlots, and because we are a fallen race and we may be cleansed and dressed to be Wed to God, this said, God can marry a harlot once she becomes a spiritual virgin, and this stands for both men and women as the entire Body in a Holy marriage covenant that will be needed to be a New Marriage Certificate.

God will not separate from His bride and then live with another while they are still wed, and no divorce is made yet. God will not wed anyone who will not first divorce their current spouse and go to Him as babes; BTW, babes are not already married at birth, so to go to God as babes is to go as you were before you are now. If this government fail by it's own demise, or collapse for whatever reason so will all of the laws and orders and all marriages will be void then, and there would be no difference. I suspect many separations and divorces in all relationships in humankind in the last fulfillment's.

We, the entire world are like abused women who are being torn between two men, one is good and the other evil, and the evil one tells us lies just to keep us from marrying our First Love.

This is a parallel to the same in respect where there will be great controversy among men and women, and world wide. The Second coming is a global event so then we must also include ourselves besides the entire world.

The Bridegroom ought to be preparing to approach the Altar first or else if he believe that he remains with the women he will then be left behind out of his order, and then he will need to dress like a Bride so to still be wed, wrongfully. The man must dress like a woman in spirit to allow our current laws to continue, and the woman must dress like a man in spirit so to approach the Altar in the first rapture.

This is the explanation for the gay spirit that lives today, and it is a spiritual battle that we fight. That's where I'm fighting, while the world is fighting a physical battle of written laws in letter.

The tribulation is the result of us being unequally yoked here on earth, and with God and with Earth. Us, Babylonians-humans have fallen, have fallen; once for man, and once for woman.

Thanks

 

[Biblewriter]

Biblewriter,

"The absolute truth is that all interpretations of the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation, for although the scriptures plainly say it will happen, they simply do not say when it will happen."


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You will have proved your point when you also prove that the rapture and the day of Christ are the same event. But I jave already demonstrated that the New Testament scriptures indicate more than one future return of Christ.

A Scriptural Precedent
http://www.christianforums.com/t7610681-11/

 

[SG9]

You will have proved your pint when you also prove that the rapture and the day of Christ are the same event. But I jave already demonstrated that the New Testament scriptures indicate more than one future return of Christ.

A Scriptural Precedent
http://www.christianforums.com/t7610681-11/

And, of course all of the future returns are... future? You will always say yes, I already know.

Thanks